The Catholic "Sola"

[Merton]

Catholic theology has a "sola" regarding justification. There is only one thing that makes us righteous/just before God - and this is the fact that God has made us in fact righteous. God makes us just and righteous people. God does this as a new creation. We were not righteous, but now we are, because God has changed us intrinsically into being children of God, who are by nature righteous. The children of God are by nature righteous because God has endowed them with "justice" - something that makes them just. This is also known in Catholic theology as 'sanctifying grace.' This "grace of justification" is either in whole or in part (not yet dogmatically defined) as being love. They are transformed by the Spirit pouring love (Latin: caritas, thus "charity") into their hearts. This new loving nature (the mark of the child of God) automatically fulfills righteousness, as it naturally keeps you from doing harm to those you love, or at least major harm.

Here is the description from the Council of Trent, which is where the Catholic Church defined justification:

"
CHAPTER VII.

What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.
...
Of this Justification the causes are these: ... the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He makes us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us...

For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein."

Given this, why is it so many posters keep asking whether there is a change in a person?
The Catholic view is that if there is no change, there has been no justification or salvation.
Only the love in your heart makes you righteous before God. Because with love in your heart as your new nature, you are in fact actually righteous. God accomplished this as a "new creation" - a new, loving, child of God, who can be still an infant and sin, but whose love will automatically keep them from committing murder or the major sins (Paul lists the commands that love keeps you from, thus fulfilling the righteous requirements of the torah Law).

Trent also explains that an infant in Christ who sins can still have the nature of a child of God. We ourselves make note of that when we say of someone who missed the mark, "His/Her heart is in the right place." Having love in your heart, you are still basically "just" and "righteous" before God, despite your sin. You don't need perfect love, but love. From Trent, again session 6, On Justification:

"CHAPTER XI.
...For, although, during this mortal life, men, how holy and just soever, at times fall into at least light and daily sins... not therefore do they cease to be just. For that cry of the just, Forgive us our trespasses, is both humble and true. "

 

[A new day]

Catholic theology has a "sola" regarding justification. There is only one thing that makes us righteous/just before God - and this is the fact that God has made us in fact righteous. God makes us just and righteous people. God does this as a new creation. We were not righteous, but now we are, because God has changed us intrinsically into being children of God, who are by nature righteous. The children of God are by nature righteous because God has endowed them with "justice" - something that makes them just. This is also known in Catholic theology as 'sanctifying grace.' This "grace of justification" is either in whole or in part (not yet dogmatically defined) as being love. They are transformed by the Spirit pouring love (Latin: caritas, thus "charity") into their hearts. This new loving nature (the mark of the child of God) automatically fulfills righteousness, as it naturally keeps you from doing harm to those you love, or at least major harm.

Here is the description from the Council of Trent, which is where the Catholic Church defined justification:

"
CHAPTER VII.

What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.
...
Of this Justification the causes are these: ... the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He makes us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us...

For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein."

Given this, why is it so many posters keep asking whether there is a change in a person?
The Catholic view is that if there is no change, there has been no justification or salvation.
Only the love in your heart makes you righteous before God. Because with love in your heart as your new nature, you are in fact actually righteous. God accomplished this as a "new creation" - a new, loving, child of God, who can be still an infant and sin, but whose love will automatically keep them from committing murder or the major sins (Paul lists the commands that love keeps you from, thus fulfilling the righteous requirements of the torah Law).

Trent also explains that an infant in Christ who sins can still have the nature of a child of God. We ourselves make note of that when we say of someone who missed the mark, "His/Her heart is in the right place." Having love in your heart, you are still basically "just" and "righteous" before God, despite your sin. You don't need perfect love, but love. From Trent, again session 6, On Justification:

"CHAPTER XI.
...For, although, during this mortal life, men, how holy and just soever, at times fall into at least light and daily sins... not therefore do they cease to be just. For that cry of the just, Forgive us our trespasses, is both humble and true. "

Did you come here to preach the ROMAN catholic catechism? I am NOT interested in learning what the ROMAN catholic catechism says. Or converting to ROMAN catholicism. For most of it either contradicts Scripture, adds to Scripture, takes away from Scripture, teaches contrary to Scripture. Contradicts itself. After all that has been posted on this forum by ROMAN catholics themselves, I want NOTHING to do with any ROMAN catholic church.

I have already seen plenty of rc teachings posted by ROMAN catholics and have already been fed enough baloney already. I know baloney is being spoken when I see it or hear it. You quote trent, I could care less what the council of trent decided on or what some ecf wrote back in the year 200. I know what Scripture says and doesn't say. I do NOT need the ROMAN catholic catechism to explain it to me.

I know that there is a new proselytizing method being tried by ROMAN catholics at this time. But anybody that is grounded in God's word, will see right through it.

 

[Mod10]

Merton, are you Catholic? If not, then it is against the rules for non-Catholics to debate each other on this board. This board is for non-Catholics to debate Catholics (or Catholics to debate other Catholics).

 

[pilgrim]

Did you come here to preach the ROMAN catholic catechism? I am NOT interested in learning what the ROMAN catholic catechism says. Or converting to ROMAN catholicism. For most of it either contradicts Scripture, adds to Scripture, takes away from Scripture, teaches contrary to Scripture. Contradicts itself. After all that has been posted on this forum by ROMAN catholics themselves, I want NOTHING to do with any ROMAN catholic church.

I have already seen plenty of rc teachings posted by ROMAN catholics and have already been fed enough baloney already. I know baloney is being spoken when I see it or hear it. You quote trent, I could care less what the council of trent decided on or what some ecf wrote back in the year 200. I know what Scripture says and doesn't say. I do NOT need the ROMAN catholic catechism to explain it to me.

I know that there is a new proselytizing method being tried by ROMAN catholics at this time. But anybody that is grounded in God's word, will see right through it.

Isn't this the Roman Catholic forum?

 

[A new day]

Isn't this the Roman Catholic forum?

Do you need proselytizing and convincing to join the rcc?

 

[Merton]

Did you come here to preach the ROMAN catholic catechism? I am NOT interested in learning what the ROMAN catholic catechism says. Or converting to ROMAN catholicism. For most of it either contradicts Scripture, adds to Scripture, takes away from Scripture, teaches contrary to Scripture. Contradicts itself. After all that has been posted on this forum by ROMAN catholics themselves, I want NOTHING to do with any ROMAN catholic church.

I have already seen plenty of rc teachings posted by ROMAN catholics and have already been fed enough baloney already. I know baloney is being spoken when I see it or hear it. You quote trent, I could care less what the council of trent decided on or what some ecf wrote back in the year 200. I know what Scripture says and doesn't say. I do NOT need the ROMAN catholic catechism to explain it to me.

I know that there is a new proselytizing method being tried by ROMAN catholics at this time. But anybody that is grounded in God's word, will see right through it.

This is not from the catechism. This is the Council of Trent, which is where the Catholic dogma on justification was written.
If you want to argue against the Catholic view of justification, you need to argue against what I have posted, since this is the Catholic teaching on the subject.

By the way, the Council of Trent is where the dogma was written. It cannot be changed. The Catechism itself is not dogma, but quotes from Trent, which is dogma.

 

[Merton]

Merton, are you Catholic? If not, then it is against the rules for non-Catholics to debate each other on this board. This board is for non-Catholics to debate Catholics (or Catholics to debate other Catholics).

Yes, I'm Catholic, and I am posting the Catholic view of Justification.

I am directly quoting the Council of Trent, which is where the Catholic Church dogmatically defined its teaching on justification. This means that this is the definition. There is no other. Any Catholic source that talks of justification - be it the Catechism, the writings of a saint, a book explaining Catholicism, any other source whatsoever - is only true in claiming to be the Catholic teaching insofar as it directly replicates the dogma determined at the Ecumenical Council of Trent in the 1500s. This is why I don't post the Catechism or some other book, but directly from the Council of Trent.

If you or anyone reads this description of what it means to be justified, and thinks that it is not Catholic, then they should realize they did not know what the Catholic teaching is on justification.

You also cannot show me the error of the Catholic view unless you directly challenge what I have posted from Trent. Anything else is a strawman.

 

[pilgrim]

Do you need proselytizing and convincing to join the rcc?

Where do you see proselytizing in the OP?

 

[Merton]

Do you need proselytizing and convincing to join the rcc?

I am helping you to proselytize to me.
I've shown you what the Catholic teaching is, so that you can muster your best arguments against it.
These boards are for you to convince me that the Catholic teaching is wrong. So show me what's wrong with the Catholic view on justification, as defined at Trent.

 

[romishpopishorganist]

Catholic theology has a "sola" regarding justification. There is only one thing that makes us righteous/just before God - and this is the fact that God has made us in fact righteous. God makes us just and righteous people. God does this as a new creation. We were not righteous, but now we are, because God has changed us intrinsically into being children of God, who are by nature righteous. The children of God are by nature righteous because God has endowed them with "justice" - something that makes them just. This is also known in Catholic theology as 'sanctifying grace.' This "grace of justification" is either in whole or in part (not yet dogmatically defined) as being love. They are transformed by the Spirit pouring love (Latin: caritas, thus "charity") into their hearts. This new loving nature (the mark of the child of God) automatically fulfills righteousness, as it naturally keeps you from doing harm to those you love, or at least major harm.

Here is the description from the Council of Trent, which is where the Catholic Church defined justification:

"
CHAPTER VII.

What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.
...
Of this Justification the causes are these: ... the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He makes us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us...

For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein."

Given this, why is it so many posters keep asking whether there is a change in a person?
The Catholic view is that if there is no change, there has been no justification or salvation.
Only the love in your heart makes you righteous before God. Because with love in your heart as your new nature, you are in fact actually righteous. God accomplished this as a "new creation" - a new, loving, child of God, who can be still an infant and sin, but whose love will automatically keep them from committing murder or the major sins (Paul lists the commands that love keeps you from, thus fulfilling the righteous requirements of the torah Law).

Trent also explains that an infant in Christ who sins can still have the nature of a child of God. We ourselves make note of that when we say of someone who missed the mark, "His/Her heart is in the right place." Having love in your heart, you are still basically "just" and "righteous" before God, despite your sin. You don't need perfect love, but love. From Trent, again session 6, On Justification:

"CHAPTER XI.
...For, although, during this mortal life, men, how holy and just soever, at times fall into at least light and daily sins... not therefore do they cease to be just. For that cry of the just, Forgive us our trespasses, is both humble and true. "

I have suggested that during the Reformation, both sides may have overreacted and failed to listen to each other given the high emotions on both sides.

I am not certain Catholic teaching is as all that far off from Protestant belief as Protestants claim. The debate is nuanced. Terms have to be defined.

 

[A new day]

I am helping you to proselytize to me.
I've shown you what the Catholic teaching is, so that you can muster your best arguments against it.
These boards are for you to convince me that the Catholic teaching is wrong. So show me what's wrong with the Catholic view on justification, as defined at Trent.

While I can't speak for others, I have the impression a con game is in the works. For your speaking out of both sides of the mouth.

Jesus told the story of the rich man and lazarus. And at the end of the story, the rich man was told that his brothers had moses and the prophets, and they could listen to them. Meaning, that his brothers had Scripture available to them. And if they didn't believe Scripture, neither would they be convinced even if someone rose from the dead.

Every rc on this forum has shown me through what they post, that they reject Scripture. We have seen how Jesus and Scripture are abused and thrown under the bus so to speak, when it suits rc's. So I am not convinced by your post that your here to help non-rc's convince rc's of the gospel. Just the opposite. I'm NOT blind.

 

[A new day]

I have suggested that during the Reformation, both sides may have overreacted and failed to listen to each other given the high emotions on both sides.

I am not certain Catholic teaching is as all that far off from Protestant belief as Protestants claim. The debate is nuanced. Terms have to be defined.

the two belief's are nothing like each other, and neither are compatible.

 

[Merton]

I have suggested that during the Reformation, both sides may have overreacted and failed to listen to each other given the high emotions on both sides.

I am not certain Catholic teaching is as all that far off from Protestant belief as Protestants claim. The debate is nuanced. Terms have to be defined.

I tend to agree with you. Sometimes I hear Protestants say things that sound the same as we believe, especially when they speak of rebirth. And it is clear that they fully believe that Catholicism teaches having non-reborn people trying to get into heaven by doing things they see written as being 'good deeds.' So much so, that if you speak of rebirth, they question whether you are even Catholic!

What I find ironic is that I listen to them speak of the rebirth, I'm not entirely sure that they believe in rebirth. When they talk of the reborn person, they still seem to think that all their works - even now - are but rags. Luther said things like "I'm a sinner and a saint," so it sounds like there is a part of him that is reborn but a part of him that is not...and the part that is not is the part that he identifies with. In other words, the new self is born, but the old self is still around...and he identifies with the old self. I get that feeling from many Protestants even nowadays. So for example, when they say that their faith motivates them to do a 'good deed,' the deed itself is actually done in a 'pharisaic' way. In other words, they do the good deed because they feel they ought to, treating it as a Law given by God, as a case of doing what God has asked them to do - in other words, it is their own will power that is doing the deed. Their will is not being moved by God-rebirth-given love to do the good deed, but is being moved the same way it would have been done before their rebirth - all that has changed is that they have attached faith. It's a case of the old self doing a deed (which is a rag, but attached to faith). So I often wonder if they have trouble understanding that the Catholic view is that the manner of doing good deeds is changed, because they are now true fruits of a new nature, because they themselves don't see their own deeds in that way (they themselves are still being pharisaic). But then, there are times, or perhaps certain denominations, when I hear Protestants truly speaking of doing good deeds as spontaneous fruit of the Spirit (they have a great aversion to saying that they are moved by love but it sounds like it is implicit), and they speak of a progressive sanctification, it seems like we are on the same page - a reborn child with a new self who has a new nature and can do good. The issue then is why they think these good deeds are not righteous? Or not sufficiently righteous? Or they believe a child of God who is not yet mature in Christ would be condemned because it was still immature, so that only the mature in Christ would pass the judgment...ergo the continued need for faith to cover absent perfection/maturity in Christ? This is why I also included in my post that the Catholic view is that the child of God, even though immature and thus capable of daily sins, is nevertheless viewed by God as righteous...as is. A child of God is righteous. I get the feeling that Protestants believe a child of God is not righteous, not while he/she is still immature - so they need faith to cover the deficit.

 

[Merton]

While I can't speak for others, I have the impression a con game is in the works. For your speaking out of both sides of the mouth.

Jesus told the story of the rich man and lazarus. And at the end of the story, the rich man was told that his brothers had moses and the prophets, and they could listen to them. Meaning, that his brothers had Scripture available to them. And if they didn't believe Scripture, neither would they be convinced even if someone rose from the dead.

Every rc on this forum has shown me through what they post, that they reject Scripture. We have seen how Jesus and Scripture are abused and thrown under the bus so to speak, when it suits rc's. So I am not convinced by your post that your here to help non-rc's convince rc's of the gospel. Just the opposite. I'm NOT blind.

I didn't mean to mislead you. I try to be respectful of the rules of a place and it seems this forum is for you to convince Catholics that Catholic teaching is wrong. You have welcomed me as a Catholic to come and engage. All I meant in my post is that I will make it easier for you to know what to attack by giving you the Catholic teaching on justification. This is the teaching, so tell me what's wrong with it. I for my part, as far as I can tell, believe the Catholic teaching is correct, as amply supported by Scripture. It fulfills the prophesied "new covenant," whereby God would place a new heart and a new spirit in us, making us willing to do what God would like us to do, not by constantly referring to a written code but spontaneously from a new nature and "law" written directly onto our hearts...in other words, by having love poured into our hearts which now motivates and guides us from inside ourselves.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Every rc on this forum has shown me through what they post, that they reject Scripture.

Every non-Catholic on this forum has shown me through what they post that they reject Christ's Catholic Church. ?‍

 

[Mod10]

Yes, I'm Catholic, and I am posting the Catholic view of Justification.

I am directly quoting the Council of Trent, which is where the Catholic Church dogmatically defined its teaching on justification. This means that this is the definition. There is no other. Any Catholic source that talks of justification - be it the Catechism, the writings of a saint, a book explaining Catholicism, any other source whatsoever - is only true in claiming to be the Catholic teaching insofar as it directly replicates the dogma determined at the Ecumenical Council of Trent in the 1500s. This is why I don't post the Catechism or some other book, but directly from the Council of Trent.

If you or anyone reads this description of what it means to be justified, and thinks that it is not Catholic, then they should realize they did not know what the Catholic teaching is on justification.

You also cannot show me the error of the Catholic view unless you directly challenge what I have posted from Trent. Anything else is a strawman.

Very good then. Carry on.

 

[balshan]

Every non-Catholic on this forum has shown me through what they post that they reject Christ's Catholic Church. ?‍

No that is a false claim we all accept the real church not your false church, there is a major difference. If we accept your claim then we are to accept Jesus approved of your false teachings and evil leaders and their actions. We would have to accept Jesus gave us shepherds who harm the flock.

 

[balshan]

This is not from the catechism. This is the Council of Trent, which is where the Catholic dogma on justification was written.
If you want to argue against the Catholic view of justification, you need to argue against what I have posted, since this is the Catholic teaching on the subject.

By the way, the Council of Trent is where the dogma was written. It cannot be changed. The Catechism itself is not dogma, but quotes from Trent, which is dogma.

According to some RCs the catechism is better than scripture and it is doctrine. I agree not all that is in the catechism is doctrine. Your beliefs are a little at odds with most RCs on here.

 

[balshan]

This is not from the catechism. This is the Council of Trent, which is where the Catholic dogma on justification was written.
If you want to argue against the Catholic view of justification, you need to argue against what I have posted, since this is the Catholic teaching on the subject.

By the way, the Council of Trent is where the dogma was written. It cannot be changed. The Catechism itself is not dogma, but quotes from Trent, which is dogma.

Most RCs do not agree with what you posted and another poster constantly posts what the Council of Trent states and his/her posts are rejected.

 

[balshan]

Catholic theology has a "sola" regarding justification. There is only one thing that makes us righteous/just before God - and this is the fact that God has made us in fact righteous. God makes us just and righteous people. God does this as a new creation. We were not righteous, but now we are, because God has changed us intrinsically into being children of God, who are by nature righteous. The children of God are by nature righteous because God has endowed them with "justice" - something that makes them just. This is also known in Catholic theology as 'sanctifying grace.' This "grace of justification" is either in whole or in part (not yet dogmatically defined) as being love. They are transformed by the Spirit pouring love (Latin: caritas, thus "charity") into their hearts. This new loving nature (the mark of the child of God) automatically fulfills righteousness, as it naturally keeps you from doing harm to those you love, or at least major harm.

Here is the description from the Council of Trent, which is where the Catholic Church defined justification:

"
CHAPTER VII.

What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.
...
Of this Justification the causes are these: ... the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He makes us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us...

For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein."

Given this, why is it so many posters keep asking whether there is a change in a person?
The Catholic view is that if there is no change, there has been no justification or salvation.
Only the love in your heart makes you righteous before God. Because with love in your heart as your new nature, you are in fact actually righteous. God accomplished this as a "new creation" - a new, loving, child of God, who can be still an infant and sin, but whose love will automatically keep them from committing murder or the major sins (Paul lists the commands that love keeps you from, thus fulfilling the righteous requirements of the torah Law).

Trent also explains that an infant in Christ who sins can still have the nature of a child of God. We ourselves make note of that when we say of someone who missed the mark, "His/Her heart is in the right place." Having love in your heart, you are still basically "just" and "righteous" before God, despite your sin. You don't need perfect love, but love. From Trent, again session 6, On Justification:

"CHAPTER XI.
...For, although, during this mortal life, men, how holy and just soever, at times fall into at least light and daily sins... not therefore do they cease to be just. For that cry of the just, Forgive us our trespasses, is both humble and true. "

I mean let us look at what you have posted. The charity of God is poured forth in the hearts of those etc. Wouldn't that mean God is inputting something into a person. We have RCs clearly post that God inputs nothing for example.

The ones who claim there is no change in a saved person is RCs. I am sure like others that we are changed we are a new creation and we have the mind of Christ once saved.

I am not going through every point. You are at odds with other RCs on these points for a start.