The center of the universe

AV1611VET

Well-known member
Then the Bible supports multiverse theory -- new universes coming into existence over time.

Doesn't multiverse theory have more than one universe co-existing at the same time?

If not, doesn't it allow for more than one universe to co-exist at the same time?
 

AV1611VET

Well-known member
And Isaiah 40:22 says heaven is a dome shaped tent which was stretched out and attached to the circle of the horizon,

Wow -- where did that comparison come from?

Here's what it really says:

Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
 

Tiburon

Well-known member
Your argument is with Arno Penzias, Robert Wilson, George Gamow, Edwin Hubble, Alexander Friedmann, Georges Lemaitre (a Catholic Priest), and Albert Einstein. As you know, H0 the so-called Hubble "constant"; represents the rate of cosmic expansion coming from the stretching of space-time itself.

"The Bible’s prophets and apostles stated explicitly and repeatedly the two most fundamental properties of the big bang, a transcendent cosmic beginning a finite time period ago and a universe undergoing a general, continual expansion. In Isaiah 42:5 both properties were declared, “This is what the Lord says—He who created the heavens and stretched them out.”

Although the Bible is not scientific, it makes specific claims about the creation event that were not understood by ancient cultures at the time these passages were written. That is amazing.
___
Again you are simply equating a poetic descriptions with subsequent scientific findings.
If the writers of the Bible understood it in the same way as the scientists mentioned then we wouldn't have had to wait for their discoveries.
That the known Universe expanded from the Big Bang until now seems to be upheld by the data.
That the Big Bang was the "beginning" mentioned in the Bible is once again supposition.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
I'

I have no reason not to believe that the writers of Isaiah 40:22 were describing the universe as a dome-shaped tent attached to the horizon.
And Earth never appears as a sphere to a person sitting on Earth's surface. Nor does the bible describe Earth as a rotating sphere orbiting the sun, but as an immovable two dimensional object as described by a circle.
Complete nonsense. Just because you want it to say something you think will approve of your exegesis, it's anything but.

Isaiah 40:22​

New American Standard Bible 1995​

22 It is He who [a]sits above the [b]circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.


Footnote:

Sits above the circle of the Earth.

The word ‘circle’ is applicable to the spherical form of the Earth, above which He sits. This strongly implies that God upholds and maintains His creation on a continuing basis. As He looks down men seem like insects to the ONE who has stretched and spread out the universal heavens.

Colossians 1:16-18

New American Standard Bible 1995

16 For [a]by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He [b]is before all things, and in Him all things [c]hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

Hebrews 1:3

New American Standard Bible 1995

3 [a]And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and [b]upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Since you don't know how to properly exegete scripture, remember that any verse you use is only as good as other verses in the Bible. We call it, interpreting scripture in light of scripture. Hence, you show your biblical ignorance (that's not a personal attack, it means that you don't have enough knowledge). You demonstrate your errors every time you do this.
 

J regia

Well-known member
Wow -- where did that comparison come from?

Here's what it really says:

Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
IOW the writers of Isaiah 40:22 described the universe as a tent attached to the circle of the horizon, and does not describe the universe as being billions of years old with about two trillion visible galaxies, each with about 200 billion stars. Nor does the bible describe Earth as a rotating globe orbiting the sun, but describes Earth as a flat immovable disc (Matt 4:8 Psalm 104:5) with ends and corners (Job 38:13).
 

J regia

Well-known member
Complete nonsense. Just because you want it to say something you think will approve of your exegesis, it's anything but.

Isaiah 40:22​

New American Standard Bible 1995​

22 It is He who [a]sits above the [b]circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.


Footnote:

Sits above the circle of the Earth.

The word ‘circle’ is applicable to the spherical form of the Earth, above which He sits. This strongly implies that God upholds and maintains His creation on a continuing basis. As He looks down men seem like insects to the ONE who has stretched and spread out the universal heavens.

Colossians 1:16-18

New American Standard Bible 1995

16 For [a]by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He [b]is before all things, and in Him all things [c]hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

Hebrews 1:3

New American Standard Bible 1995

3 [a]And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and [b]upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Since you don't know how to properly exegete scripture, remember that any verse you use is only as good as other verses in the Bible. We call it, interpreting scripture in light of scripture. Hence, you show your biblical ignorance (that's not a personal attack, it means that you don't have enough knowledge). You demonstrate your errors every time you do this.
Complete nonsense, and exegesis is just your personal opinion. And the word "circle" describes a two dimensional object and not a three dimensional object.

So where does the bible describe Earth as a rotating globe orbiting the Sun? And where does the bible describe the universe as billions of years old with about two trillion visible galaxies instead of a tent attached to the circle of the horizon in which the inhabitants live (Isaiah 40:22)?

If you believe otherwise, then how was the tent attached to the earth if you claim that the word "circle" is a synonym for the word "globe" or "sphere".

ISAIAH 40:22 KJV
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:”
 
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AV1611VET

Well-known member
IOW the writers of Isaiah 40:22 described the universe as a tent attached to the circle of the horizon, and does not describe the universe as being billions of years old with about two trillion visible galaxies, each with about 200 billion stars. Nor does the bible describe Earth as a rotating globe orbiting the sun, but describes Earth as a flat immovable disc (Matt 4:8 Psalm 104:5) with ends and corners (Job 38:13).

"Writers of Isaiah"? plural?

"Attached to the circle of the horizon"?

... and does not describe the universe as being billions of years old with about two trillion visible galaxies, each with about 200 billion stars. Nor does the bible describe Earth as a rotating globe orbiting the sun,

Because God said ...

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

In other words, in due time, God will raise up someone to discover something in His creation.

J regia said:
... but describes Earth as a flat immovable disc (Matt 4:8 Psalm 104:5) with ends and corners (Job 38:13).

Does the phrase "ends of the earth" bother you?

I've heard that phrase on TV and in the newspaper and in books all my life.

And for the record, do you know what you're doing?

You're appealing to books of poetry (Job & Psalms) as scientific descriptions of the universe.

Then making the wrong interpretation of what the Bible is saying.

Get your science out of the way, and you might understand what is being said a little better.
 
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AV1611VET

Well-known member
ISAIAH 40:22 KJV
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,"

I believe the term that can help you understand this is called "azimuth."

Get your science in the way this time, and you might understand what is being said a little better.
 

J regia

Well-known member
I believe the term that can help you understand this is called "azimuth."

Get your science in the way this time, and you might understand what is being said a little better.
So what has the horizontal direction of a star or galaxy got to do with the writers of Isaiah 40:22 describing the universe as a tent attached to the circle of the horizon, and that if a person sits on the horizon more distant people will appear smaller and like grasshoppers?

Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
 

J regia

Well-known member
"Writers of Isaiah"? plural?
"Attached to the circle of the horizon"?
So where do the writer(s) of Isaiah 40:22 say the tent was attached if it wasn't the circle of the horizon?
Does the phrase "ends of the earth" bother you?
So where are the ends of the earth, and are they at the circle of the horizon where the tent is attached?
I've heard that phrase on TV and in the newspaper and in books all my life.

And for the record, do you know what you're doing?

You're appealing to books of poetry (Job & Psalms) as scientific descriptions of the universe.

Then making the wrong interpretation of what the Bible is saying.

Get your science out of the way, and you might understand what is being said a little better.
So where does the bible describe Earth as a rotating sphere orbiting the Sun?
And where does the bible describe the universe as being billions of years old with about two trillion visible galaxies each with about 200 billion stars?
 

AV1611VET

Well-known member
So what has the horizontal direction of a star or galaxy got to do with the writers of Isaiah 40:22 describing the universe as a tent attached to the circle of the horizon, and that if a person sits on the horizon more distant people will appear smaller and like grasshoppers?

Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Do me a favor, would you, J?

Highlight the word in the passage you quoted that you construe as "attached"?
 

inertia

Super Member
Again you are simply equating a poetic descriptions with subsequent scientific findings.

Here it's not a simple mental association with an ancient text as asserted above.

These texts were different than nearby cultures at the time, imploring readers to get an understanding even if it cost all they have, and based on history, appropriating real-quantifiable understanding didn't come easily. It was not until the renaissance with the invention of the printing press, and the scientific revolution where low-cost access to reading material including the Gutenberg Bible became widely available where people could read and learn with new insight. ( I remember reading about people wanting to learn to read so they could read the Bible for themselves. The Gutenberg Bible and others provided this new access and people like Martin Luther initiated change. )

If the writers of the Bible understood it in the same way as the scientists mentioned then we wouldn't have had to wait for their discoveries.

Indeed. They had to contend with many other issues, but they left specific scripture intact for future generations. Comprehending natural phenomenon takes a back seat Biblically in understanding how evil affects our relationship with God. Evil is not a scientific concept, but it is pervasive and affects us all.

About creation:
  • Genesis 1:1 and Hebrews 11:3 declare that the universe began to exist (and, thus, required a Beginner).
  • At least five biblical writers describe an expanding universe (e.g., Job 9:8; Psalm 104:2; Isaiah 40:22, 42:5, 44:24, 45:12, 48:13, 51:13; Jeremiah 10:12, 51:15; and Zechariah 12:1).
  • Scripture also talks about the constancy of the laws of physics, most explicitly in Jeremiah 33:25–26.
  • Romans 8:18–21 notes the effects of a pervasive law of decay.
We have since learned how to quantify these ancient Biblical insights.

That the known Universe expanded from the Big Bang until now seems to be upheld by the data.

Yes!

"The heavens declare the glory of God; the sky displays his handiwork. Day after day it speaks out; night after night it reveals his greatness. There is no actual speech or word, nor is its voice literally heard. " (Psalms 19:1-3, NET )

I am expecting a deeper understanding using our new gravitational wave instruments and the James Webb Telescope in the near future.

___
 
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Tiburon

Well-known member
Here it's not a simple mental association with an ancient text as asserted above.

These texts were different than nearby cultures at the time, imploring readers to get an understanding even if it cost all they have, and based on history, appropriating real-quantifiable understanding didn't come easily. It was not until the renaissance with the invention of the printing press, and the scientific revolution where low-cost access to reading material including the Gutenberg Bible became widely available where people could read and learn with new insight. ( I remember reading about people wanting to learn to read so they could read the Bible for themselves. The Gutenberg Bible and others provided this new access and people like Martin Luther initiated change. )
The texts were not that different and in fact borrowed much from nearby cultures.

Indeed. They had to contend with many other issues, but they left specific scripture intact for future generations. Comprehending natural phenomenon takes a back seat Biblically in understanding how evil affects our relationship with God. Evil is not a scientific concept, but it is pervasive and affects us all.

About creation:
  • Genesis 1:1 and Hebrews 11:3 declare that the universe began to exist (and, thus, required a Beginner).
  • At least five biblical writers describe an expanding universe (e.g., Job 9:8; Psalm 104:2; Isaiah 40:22, 42:5, 44:24, 45:12, 48:13, 51:13; Jeremiah 10:12, 51:15; and Zechariah 12:1).
  • Scripture also talks about the constancy of the laws of physics, most explicitly in Jeremiah 33:25–26.
  • Romans 8:18–21 notes the effects of a pervasive law of decay.
We have since learned how to quantify these ancient Biblical insights.
They left text that have been reinterpreted in light of our current understanding but show nothing that would support the original writers having any knowledge of what you claim they did.
We don't know for instance if the Big Bang is "the beginning".
"stretched out the heavens" doesn't indicate an expanding universe.
All we have done is link these "Biblical insights" using a false equivalency to our modern scientific understanding based only on a vague similarity in description.

"The heavens declare the glory of God; the sky displays his handiwork. Day after day it speaks out; night after night it reveals his greatness. There is no actual speech or word, nor is its voice literally heard. " (Psalms 19:1-3, NET )

I am expecting a deeper understanding using our new gravitational wave instruments and the James Webb Telescope in the near future.
God of the Gaps. I can't think of any other possible origin for what I see around me therefore it must be God.
I'd like to see Christians make some scientific predictions based on the Bible before any discoveries by science. Then I might be convinced.
 
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inertia

Super Member
The texts were not that different and in fact borrowed much from nearby cultures.

Aah...

The Bible states that the One and only God made fixed laws in his creation. However, other nearby cultures required a number of fighting deities to govern heaven and earth. Examples include the Babylonian religion where the earth was created by the god of magic after defeating his father. Also, the Egyptian god Ra created the first gods to complete the cosmos from a primeval ocean. Their differences are evident.

The Hebrew Bible states:

“But I, the LORD, make the following promise: I have made a covenant governing the coming of day and night. I have established the fixed laws governing heaven and earth.” (Jer. 33:25)

They left text that have been reinterpreted in light of our current understanding but show nothing that would support the original writers having any knowledge of what you claim they did.

What I asserted is that the writers clearly and unambiguously stated that people need to seek understanding and get wisdom. This is key.

This paradigm remained true -even- when the ancient Hebrew universe looked like this:

Ancient Hebrew Universe.JPG

Clearly, more understanding was required here.

Ancient Babylonian and Egyptian Universes.JPG

...and people are still obtaining an improved understanding as each year passes.

We don't know for instance if the Big Bang is "the beginning".
"stretched out the heavens" doesn't indicate an expanding universe.

About that "beginning" ( everywhere stretch ) from "minutephysics":


All we have done is link these "Biblical insights" using a false equivalency to our modern scientific understanding based only on a vague similarity in description.

God of the Gaps.

Not at all. It's not about gaps in scientific knowledge - therefore God... (God of the Gaps)

It's about acquiring understanding. Asking: "What is north of the north pole is not a well-defined question." Similarly, our equations describing the everywhere stretch model tend to break down to the point where time does not make sense near the Planck Epoch. What we do know is that every "when" of the universe is after the beginning. We also know that the late Stephen Hawking demonstrated that time did not exist before the Planck Epoch leaving room for even more exploration.

The James Webb Space Telescope may bring us even more understanding in the relatively near future.

I can't think of any other possible origin for what I see around me therefore it must be God.
I'd like to see Christians make some scientific predictions based on the Bible before any discoveries by science. Then I might be convinced.

Okay. As discoveries continue and scientific knowledge increases the data upon testing will continue to verify a

- a transcendent creation event in the beginning ( transcends physics )

- a cosmic fine-tuning including the fine-tuning of the earth’s, solar system’s, and Milky Way Galaxy’s characteristics

and

- the rapidity of life’s origin

____
 
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Tiburon

Well-known member
Aah...

The Bible states that the One and only God made fixed laws in his creation. However, other nearby cultures required a number of fighting deities to govern heaven and earth. Examples include the Babylonian religion where the earth was created by the god of magic after defeating his father. Also, the Egyptian god Ra created the first gods to complete the cosmos from a primeval ocean. Their differences are evident.

The Hebrew Bible states:

“But I, the LORD, make the following promise: I have made a covenant governing the coming of day and night. I have established the fixed laws governing heaven and earth.” (Jer. 33:25)
What translation are you taking this quote from? I can't find one that states it like that.

What I asserted is that the writers clearly and unambiguously stated that people need to seek understanding and get wisdom. This is key.

This paradigm remained true -even- when the ancient Hebrew universe looked like this:

View attachment 2288

Clearly, more understanding was required here.

View attachment 2289

...and people are still obtaining an improved understanding as each year passes.
This increased understanding comes from science not the Bible.


About that "beginning" ( everywhere stretch ) from "minutephysics":


Not at all. It's not about gaps in scientific knowledge - therefore God... (God of the Gaps)

It's about acquiring understanding. Asking: "What is north of the north pole is not a well-defined question." Similarly, our equations describing the everywhere stretch model tend to break down to the point where time does not make sense near the Planck Epoch. What we do know is that every "when" of the universe is after the beginning. We also know that the late Stephen Hawking demonstrated that time did not exist before the Planck Epoch leaving room for even more exploration.
Or everywhere expanded. The only approximation of any commonality between the creation described in the Bible and the Big Bang is in the use of the word "Stretched". There are no other details that indicate a common understanding.

The James Webb Space Telescope may bring us even more understanding in the relatively near future.

Okay. As discoveries continue and scientific knowledge increases the data upon testing will continue to verify a

- a transcendent creation event in the beginning ( transcends physics )

- a cosmic fine-tuning including the fine-tuning of the earth’s, solar system’s, and Milky Way Galaxy’s characteristics

and

- the rapidity of life’s origin
It may transcend physics as we currently understand it but I don't think that is the same as pointing to a "transcendent creation event"
whatever that might be.
I don't see any way to really verify "cosmic fine-tuning".
 

rossum

Well-known member
It describes a new heaven and a new earth, not plural
That gives us at least two universes, this one and the new one. We also know that there is more than one heaven: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." That is "heavens", not "heaven". Not quite as singular as you seem to think.
 

puddleglum

Active member
That gives us at least two universes, this one and the new one. We also know that there is more than one heaven: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." That is "heavens", not "heaven". Not quite as singular as you seem to think.

The Bible speaks of three heavens. The first is the air around the earth.

And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
Genesis 1:28

The second is outer space.

For the stars of the heavens and their constellations
will not give their light;
the sun will be dark at its rising,
and the moon will not shed its light.
Isaiah 13:10

The third, the one we usually mean when we speak of Heaven, is the heaven where God lives.

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.
2 Corinthians 12:2
 
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