The Choice - Part I - Grace & Humility

Aaron32

Active member
Here’s the claim of what Mormons believe about grace:
...grace kicks in only after "all that we do" and only after we "deny ourselves of all ungodliness."

the problem identified:
Problem is, we cannot deny ourselves of ungodliness or do all that we can do, unless we have God's grace in Christ Jesus our Lord, in the first place--

Then is the result of God’s grace:
then the indwelling HS sanctifies us and enables us to do things pleasing to God.

So, according to this explanation, salvation is a linear process:
1. Somehow we receive God’s grace
2. The HS sanctifies us

Question: Is humility a choice? If we need the HS to do ANYTHING that pleases God,
what role does God’s Grace play in humility? Do we humble ourselves, or does God do that for us?

Both James 4:6 an 1 Peter 5:5 state: “God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.” which I believe is referencing Proverbs 3:34.

If the cause (grace) equals the result (grace), then God loves who he loves, and I suppose it really doesn’t matter what we say or do, because God is all-powerful and if He wants you He’ll find you.

If, however, humility is a choice, then we can actually choose Christ over sin, exercise faith, and receive grace, which gets the ball rolling.

Which is it?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Again, there is so much to unpack here...

And I wanted to relate this topic to the Mormon usage of Phil. 2:5-6, but that may have to wait for another post...

Question: Is humility a choice? If we need the HS to do ANYTHING that pleases God,
what role does God’s Grace play in humility? Do we humble ourselves, or does God do that for us?

Well, this seems to be a rhetorical question, and no answer is given from the Mormon end.
In my experience, humility is not a "choice". It is something that happens outside of our control. We see something, we experience something, and that causes us to "be humbled". I see a homeless boy eating lettuce out of a dumpster, and not only is he not complaining, he is content and happy. I don't go into some "debate" in my mind, that AUTOMATICALLY "humbles" me for complaining that my Eggs Florentine doesn't have enough sauce. It's not a "choice", it's simply a change I undergo. That agrees with other instances where we might say, "I am humbled", or "he humbled me."

You mention "do we humble ourselves".
I did a search on "humble yourselves", from which that comes from, and outside of the two Bible references, we simply don't speak that way. I could find no mention of the phrase "humble yourselves", outside of reference of those two verses.

So I took the logical next step, I looked at what those passages actually say:

James 4:10

Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.

There are two important points I noticed here:

1) It says, "humble yourselves, and he will exalt you". What kind of contradictory argument is that? If I humble myself, God will exalt me. Okay. I want to be exalted, so I'll humble myself, so I will get exalted. If the entire purpose of doing something ("humbling yourself") results in being "exalted", that doesn't sound very "humble", does it? You want to be special, you want to be exalted, so if that is your goal, exactly how are you humbling yourself?

2) The Greek word, "tapeinoO", means "to humble", but in this occurrence it is in the passive imperative, which would translate as "be humbled". The "humbling" is something that is done TO us (passive), not something we do to ourselves. And there is nothing in the text to suggest a reflexive meaning ("humble YOURSELVES").

Both James 4:6 an 1 Peter 5:5 state: “God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.” which I believe is referencing Proverbs 3:34.

James 4:6

And once again, there are three important points to be made here:

1) It says he gives grace "to the humble". It makes no mention of HOW the person becomes "humble", only that he now is. Did he "choose" to humble himself, or was he humbled by an outside source? It does not say. We have to be careful not to make invalid assumptions which are not found in the text.

2) The verse technically describes a "correlation", which is an association without identifying the causative factors. Again, many people (based on their a priori doctrines) will ASSUME a particular causation (eg. "God gives you grace BECAUSE you were humble"). I believe we are humbled BECAUSE God gives us grace. It's like someone asking, "Who did God give grace to?" And the answer is, "See those humbled people? God gave grace to those people. We know He gave them grace because they were humbled." The verse by itself is consistent with BOTH understandings, and by itself cannot proclaim one interpretation as "correct" over the other.

3) Although it is not stated explicitly, I get the feeling that the poster interprets this verse as saying, "This is the ONLY rule for how God gives grace", as opposed to, "This is one indication of God giving grace". And of course, such an interpretation assumes that humbling precedes, and causes, God to give the grace.

If the cause (grace) equals the result (grace), then God loves who he loves, and I suppose it really doesn’t matter what we say or do, because God is all-powerful and if He wants you He’ll find you.

The poster seems to summarily dismiss this option simply because he wants man to have some measure of control over his salvation, and if he doesn't, then our understanding must be wrong. This simply assumes the very doctrine he seeks to support.

Apparently God can't be God, and do what He wants, outside of man's opinion.

If, however, humility is a choice, then we can actually choose Christ over sin, exercise faith, and receive grace, which gets the ball rolling.

Which is it?

The poster seems to reject Scripture in favour of a philosophical discussion.
Where does SCRIPTURE teach that "humility is a choice"?
Where does SCRIPTURE teach that "we can actually choose Christ over sin".
Where does SCRIPTURE teach anyone can "exercise faith"?

And the expression "receive grace" is interesting.
Is "receiving" grace a separate and autonomous action from God "giving" grace?
I mean, does God "give" grace, or does He merely "offer" it?

Does it say, "God GIVES grace to the humble"?
Or does it merely say, "God OFFERS grace to the humble"?


"Can ... choose"

Where does SCRIPTURE teach that "we can actually choose Christ over sin".

What does Scripture teach about "man's ability"?:

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Rom. 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

1 Cor. 2:14
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Eph. 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

Col. 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses
and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,


"Exercise Faith"?
Where does SCRIPTURE teach anyone can "exercise faith"?


So there are two issues here:

1) Does EVERYONE have faith? Can someone "exercise" a faith they don't have?

2) Does God giver everyone "faith"? Or is God's gift merely "the ability to exercise faith"?

One of those questions can be answered very easily:

2 Thess. 3:2 ... and that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith.


"Faith" is spoken in Scripture as being "the gift of God":

Phil 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,

Rom. 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

2 Pet. 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

John 6:29
Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”


So we know two things:

1) God gives people actual "faith", not merely the "ability/opportunity to exercise faith".
2) Not all have faith.
 

Aaron32

Active member
Again, there is so much to unpack here...

In all sincerity, Theo. I honestly say that this is a masterpiece of reasoning. And I really mean it. I'm not being sarcastic. It has forced me to consider something I have never discovered before - the absence of "Choice".

I have spent so much effort in the last 15 years on and off this board, to use logic and reason to defend my beliefs. As you have stated about me in the past, that I'm not a typical Mormon, and even dberrie isn't sure my beliefs are LDS. And yet, I can find scriptural backing for all my beliefs. I agree with non-mormon Christians in grace vs works. There's usually no debate on the topic, except how we believe it is defined in Mormonism.

I agree with your assessment that grace correlates with humility, and correlation is not causation.

I also believe faith, grace, and salvation are all gifts from God.

The ONE thing, that I can see (at this moment), that separates the Book of Mormon from the New Testament, is the principle of "Choice."

Thinking of the "giving" of grace and the "receiving" of grace being non-autonomous makes me think of Indiana Jones in the Temple of Doom, where Indiana and his sidekick are stuck in a room with the walls closing in and spikes coming out and death is imminent. Grace would be someone pulling the lever on the outside which opens the door. Our choice is to go out the door, or stay and die.

That makes God kinda like Vito Corleone, in The Godfather, making “an offer you can’t refuse” and then claiming the offer was “freely” accepted.

I don't know if I can accept thinking of God in that way. It will take me months to consider all of the implications of this way of thinking. My mind is blown.

But by the authority of words in the New Testament alone (that I can recall in memory), and using the New Testament as a lens to interpret the Old Testament, I agree. Your logic is ultimately flawless. And if I was given all the evidence that you have, being the Bible, then I would make the EXACT same conclusion as you. Checkmate!

What I can't deny is my witness of the Book of Mormon. I simply can't. It's not something that I can explain in words, or anything I can convey to you by logic or reason. I know what I experienced, and I know it did not come from me. And I know that God knows that I know that. I don't say that to persuade you, but to hopefully help you (or other Christians I've been in long conversations with) possibly understand my behavior. There is so much I wish I could convey to all of you, but it's simply not possible in this format. And while there has been no "love" between us, I hope you can atleast tell I have been sincere and congruent in my words and I have not varied from my views or my approach.

In any case, you have done for me a great favor. I've worried if I've done my part to witness the truthfulness of my beliefs. You have been instrumental in helping me understand that I have done "all I can do" in this effort. I am at peace now, knowing that I will be spotless from...well...this forum anyway (Jacob 1:19). Thank you! God bless!
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
In all sincerity, Theo. I honestly say that this is a masterpiece of reasoning. And I really mean it. I'm not being sarcastic. It has forced me to consider something I have never discovered before - the absence of "Choice".

You've won a few points of respect from me.
You have done something that no other Mormon has done, and you have explained why.
You have tried (and apparently succeeded) in understanding the view of someone who believes differently than you do. My goal is not necessarily that you believe it be true yourself (only God can do that), but merely that you understand it, and represent it accurately when you feel you NEED to explain it (which you should rarely do, IMO).

Most Mormons (and this applies to other groups as well) try to understand the beliefs of others by trying to fit it inside THEIR own paradigm. But you have discovered our beliefs are based on "something [you] have never discovered before".

It's not simply a matter of, "do you prefer chicken or beef?"
It's a matter of, "What? So moose is actually a food you can EAT?!?!??!"

As you have stated about me in the past, that I'm not a typical Mormon, and even dberrie isn't sure my beliefs are LDS. And yet, I can find scriptural backing for all my beliefs.

Because of the way you worded this (I feel like my compatriot, Jordan Peterson), since I pay very careful attention to words. What this seems to be expressing (and you may have intended it this way, or maybe not) is, you can list your doctrines, and for each one list one or two "proof-texts" to support it. But with all due respect, that is NOT the proper way to study the Bible. What it is saying is that you:
1) start with your own beliefs;
2) find a verse that seems to support it;
3) specifically interpret the verse so that it DOES support your view.

This is almost the exact OPPOSITE of what one should properly do:
1) choose a topic;
2) find ALL the passages which speak to that topic.
3) study those passages in their OWN contexts, to determine meaning;
4) draw a conclusion of the ONE message which those passages are teaching.

Granted, the second method takes FAR more work, which is why (IMO) Mormons like to simply quote a "proof-text" (3 sec.), while to respond to it, one needs to (1) study and summarize the CONTEXT of that passage, and (2) study and summarize a number of other passages which speak to that topic.

For instance, we have the same interactions over and over with Mormons:

1) Mormons believe multiple gods (Ps. 82:6, 1 Cor. 8:5).
But the CONTEXT of those verses doesn't support that interpretation, and it is also contradicted by Deut. 4:35,39, Deut. 32:39, 1 Kings 8:60, Ps. 86:10, Isa. 43-46, Mark 12:32, 1 Cor. 8:4., etc.

2) Mormons believe salvation requires faith plus works (James 2).
But the CONTEXT of that passage doesn't support that conclusion, and it is also contradicted by Eph. 2:8-9, Tit. 3:5, 2 Tim. 1:9, Rom. 4:4-6, Rom.11:5-6, etc. etc.


That's why people leave Mormonism for Christianity (like the Wilders). The Mormon "presentation" sounds good to someone who isn't familiar with the Bible, but once they start studying it in depth, and see the abuse of context, and all the other passages which explicitly contradict Mormon, they do a double-take.

I agree with your assessment that ... correlation is not causation.

Well, I sure wish you would explain it to dberrie.
Do you have any opinions of why he constantly DODGES that issue?
Do you agree with me that it looks bad for Mormonism when Mormons do that?

I also believe faith, grace, and salvation are all gifts from God.

So that makes you the second Mormon I've met in 30 years who I believe has a good likelihood of become a Christian.

The ONE thing, that I can see (at this moment), that separates the Book of Mormon from the New Testament, is the principle of "Choice."

So is the New Testament wrong?
Or is the Book of Mormon wrong?

That makes God kinda like Vito Corleone, in The Godfather, making “an offer you can’t refuse” and then claiming the offer was “freely” accepted.

The analogy doesn't work, as the Godfather example is an example of coercion (against our will), while Biblical action is according to our will.

I don't know if I can accept thinking of God in that way. It will take me months to consider all of the implications of this way of thinking. My mind is blown.

No, I wouldn't expect an instant change.

But by the authority of words in the New Testament alone (that I can recall in memory), and using the New Testament as a lens to interpret the Old Testament, I agree. Your logic is ultimately flawless. And if I was given all the evidence that you have, being the Bible, then I would make the EXACT same conclusion as you. Checkmate!

So does that weaken your opinion of the reliability of the Bible?

What I can't deny is my witness of the Book of Mormon. I simply can't. It's not something that I can explain in words, or anything I can convey to you by logic or reason. I know what I experienced, and I know it did not come from me.

I understand that subjective experiences can be very strong and hard to deny, but what is more reliable, a subjective experience, no matter how strong, or God's word, the Bible?

And I know that God knows that I know that. I don't say that to persuade you, but to hopefully help you (or other Christians I've been in long conversations with) possibly understand my behavior. There is so much I wish I could convey to all of you, but it's simply not possible in this format.

Well, I would disagree.
It's not EASY for people to communicate effectively in this format, but it can be done.

The problem is it takes a GREAT deal more effort than people frequently wish to make. Especially when the purpose of some Mormons is to sabotage any and all productive discussion here (which I believe some Mormons here are trying to do). And ironically, simply making observations like that are not conducive to effective discussion.

Both because it's a written form of communication (no body language, no vocal inflection, no facial expression, etc.) and because we claim to be followers of Christ, it is important to bend over backwards trying to interpret what you read (especially by your "opponents") in the BEST possible light, and like you said, make every effort to interpret their words as consistent with their stated beliefs as possible, and give them the benefit of the doubt when alternate interpretations are possible. But again, this takes effort.

And it is important to follow rules, such as not making claims about what someone said without providing a linked quote. And if you "infer" something from a statement that was not explicitly stated, maybe ask if, "does your statement mean that you believe....?". Kudos to you, btw, for owning up to not representing Bonnie accurately.

And while there has been no "love" between us, I hope you can atleast tell I have been sincere and congruent in my words and I have not varied from my views or my approach.

I'll suggest a few guidelines that would go a long way with me:

1) don't post one-liner "gotcha" remarks, especially if is trying to attack evangelical Christianity. Feel free to criticize Christianity in the appropriate forum, we have nothing to hide, but not here, where it detracts from discussing Mormonism.

2) Don't try to play the victim, and don't try to put down Christians while justifying it with "that's how you treat us, so that's how I'm going to treat you." If you feel wronged, try to be the better person, and (at the risk of quoting the Bible), "turn the other cheek".

3) Don't feel like you can't answer a question with, "I don't know", or "I have to think about that". Such answers are often appropriate for heavy ideas, especially when they're new.

Follow those, and we should get along just fine.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Question: Is humility a choice? If we need the HS to do ANYTHING that pleases God,
what role does God’s Grace play in humility? Do we humble ourselves, or does God do that for us?

My favourite passage about humility is found in Phil. 2.
However, Mormons frequently use this passage to teach the exact OPPOSITE of "humility", namely in nurturing the idea of becoming "deity" one day.

They quote:

Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

And the syllogism is as follows:
P1) Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God;
P2) We are to have the "like mind" as Jesus;
C1) We should think it not robbery for ourselves to be equal with God.

However, the reason this "logic" is flawed is because it only captures HALF of the "mind" that was in Christ Jesus.

5 Have this mind among yourselves,
which is yours in Christ Jesus,
- be like-minded with Christ
6 who, though he was in the
form of God,
did not count equality
with God a thing to be
grasped,
- notice the ESV rendering, and the relation between "grasping" and "robbery".
- Jesus didn't feel it appropriate to remain at the level of "god", but to become a man.
7 but emptied himself,
by taking the form of a servant,
being born in the likeness of men.
- "emptied himself" (HUMILITY)
- "taking the form of a servant" (HUMILITY)
8 And being found in human form,
he
humbled himself by becoming
obedient to the point of death,
even death on a cross.
- "found in human form" (HUMILITY)
- "humbled himself" (HUMILITY)
- "obedient to point of death" (HUMILITY)
- "death on cross" (HUMILITY)
9 Therefore God has highly exalted him
and bestowed on him the name
that is above every name,
- having served His purpose in redemption.
10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth
and under the earth,
- bow to Jesus (HUMILITY)
11 and every tongue confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.





So the "like mind" here is NOT aspirations to deity, but rather to mirror Christ's
EXTREME humility in condescending
from deity to human servant dying
a humiliating death on a cross, and being like Christ in being "humble".
- confess Jesus as Lord (HUMILITY)








 

Bonnie

Super Member
The LDS faith is one that tends to nurture pride, however unwittingly. It starts when kids are told they are the literal offspring of God in the pre-mortal existence. Then it is further nurtured when they are taught in their church that they too can become Gods like HF and do all that He has done--create worlds and populate them with their own spirit children.

Ivanhoe had this on here a few boards ago:

Joseph H. Weston, who joined the Mormon church three days after completing his book, exclaimed:

Mormons don't grovel before God, prating their unworthiness and imploring mercy. They are not slaves! They are men, made in the image of God! They proudly stand, hold their heads high, and put out their hands to shake that of God in greeting, as any worthy son would be expected to respectfully but proudly stand before a wise and good father (These Amazing Mormons! p. 82).

Kinda goes against what Jesus taught, doesn't it? Like in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector, when both went up to the temple in Jerusalem to pray...
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Again, there is so much to unpack here...

And I wanted to relate this topic to the Mormon usage of Phil. 2:5-6, but that may have to wait for another post...



Well, this seems to be a rhetorical question, and no answer is given from the Mormon end.
In my experience, humility is not a "choice". It is something that happens outside of our control. We see something, we experience something, and that causes us to "be humbled". I see a homeless boy eating lettuce out of a dumpster, and not only is he not complaining, he is content and happy. I don't go into some "debate" in my mind, that AUTOMATICALLY "humbles" me for complaining that my Eggs Florentine doesn't have enough sauce. It's not a "choice", it's simply a change I undergo. That agrees with other instances where we might say, "I am humbled", or "he humbled me."

You mention "do we humble ourselves".
I did a search on "humble yourselves", from which that comes from, and outside of the two Bible references, we simply don't speak that way. I could find no mention of the phrase "humble yourselves", outside of reference of those two verses.

So I took the logical next step, I looked at what those passages actually say:

James 4:10

Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.

There are two important points I noticed here:

1) It says, "humble yourselves, and he will exalt you". What kind of contradictory argument is that? If I humble myself, God will exalt me. Okay. I want to be exalted, so I'll humble myself, so I will get exalted. If the entire purpose of doing something ("humbling yourself") results in being "exalted", that doesn't sound very "humble", does it? You want to be special, you want to be exalted, so if that is your goal, exactly how are you humbling yourself?

2) The Greek word, "tapeinoO", means "to humble", but in this occurrence it is in the passive imperative, which would translate as "be humbled". The "humbling" is something that is done TO us (passive), not something we do to ourselves. And there is nothing in the text to suggest a reflexive meaning ("humble YOURSELVES").



James 4:6

And once again, there are three important points to be made here:

1) It says he gives grace "to the humble". It makes no mention of HOW the person becomes "humble", only that he now is. Did he "choose" to humble himself, or was he humbled by an outside source? It does not say. We have to be careful not to make invalid assumptions which are not found in the text.

2) The verse technically describes a "correlation", which is an association without identifying the causative factors. Again, many people (based on their a priori doctrines) will ASSUME a particular causation (eg. "God gives you grace BECAUSE you were humble"). I believe we are humbled BECAUSE God gives us grace. It's like someone asking, "Who did God give grace to?" And the answer is, "See those humbled people? God gave grace to those people. We know He gave them grace because they were humbled." The verse by itself is consistent with BOTH understandings, and by itself cannot proclaim one interpretation as "correct" over the other.

3) Although it is not stated explicitly, I get the feeling that the poster interprets this verse as saying, "This is the ONLY rule for how God gives grace", as opposed to, "This is one indication of God giving grace". And of course, such an interpretation assumes that humbling precedes, and causes, God to give the grace.



The poster seems to summarily dismiss this option simply because he wants man to have some measure of control over his salvation, and if he doesn't, then our understanding must be wrong. This simply assumes the very doctrine he seeks to support.

Apparently God can't be God, and do what He wants, outside of man's opinion.



The poster seems to reject Scripture in favour of a philosophical discussion.
Where does SCRIPTURE teach that "humility is a choice"?
Where does SCRIPTURE teach that "we can actually choose Christ over sin".
Where does SCRIPTURE teach anyone can "exercise faith"?

And the expression "receive grace" is interesting.
Is "receiving" grace a separate and autonomous action from God "giving" grace?
I mean, does God "give" grace, or does He merely "offer" it?

Does it say, "God GIVES grace to the humble"?
Or does it merely say, "God OFFERS grace to the humble"?


"Can ... choose"

Where does SCRIPTURE teach that "we can actually choose Christ over sin".

What does Scripture teach about "man's ability"?:

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Rom. 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

1 Cor. 2:14
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Eph. 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

Col. 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses
and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,


"Exercise Faith"?
Where does SCRIPTURE teach anyone can "exercise faith"?


So there are two issues here:

1) Does EVERYONE have faith? Can someone "exercise" a faith they don't have?

2) Does God giver everyone "faith"? Or is God's gift merely "the ability to exercise faith"?

One of those questions can be answered very easily:

2 Thess. 3:2 ... and that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith.


"Faith" is spoken in Scripture as being "the gift of God":

Phil 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,

Rom. 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

2 Pet. 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

John 6:29
Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”


So we know two things:

1) God gives people actual "faith", not merely the "ability/opportunity to exercise faith".
2) Not all have faith.
I think when we are granted faith in Christ Jesus our Lord, such a gift does indeed humble us...for we realize it is all God's doing and none of our own. It is VERY humbling to realize that we are helpless to save ourselves and are lost and condemned creatures, without the grace of Jesus Christ.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
The LDS faith is one that tends to nurture pride, however unwittingly. It starts when kids are told they are the literal offspring of God in the pre-mortal existence. Then it is further nurtured when they are taught in their church that they too can become Gods like HF and do all that He has done--create worlds and populate them with their own spirit children.

Ivanhoe had this on here a few boards ago:



Kinda goes against what Jesus taught, doesn't it? Like in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector, when both went up to the temple in Jerusalem to pray...

Wow... That's a very powerful and telling quote. I don't know who Weston is/was, so originally I read it as the the comment by an outsider, but the fact that he was a member speaks VOLUMES about the arrogant attitude of Mormons.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Wow... That's a very powerful and telling quote. I don't know who Weston is/was, so originally I read it as the the comment by an outsider, but the fact that he was a member speaks VOLUMES about the arrogant attitude of Mormons.
We would need to ask the Prophet for more info on the quote, since he put it down on here, several yeas ago.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
We would need to ask the Prophet for more info on the quote, since he put it down on here, several yeas ago.

Apparently it comes from an author who died in the '80's.
The book is apparently out of print, and I only found one copy on abehbooks.com.

Someone named "Randall Nicholson" typed out the entire book and made it available on his website. I'm not sure about the legality of that, regarding copyright issues, but if you do a Google search on "Mormons don't grovel before God" Nicholson, you'll find the link to it.
 

kpasa

Member
Here’s the claim of what Mormons believe about grace:


the problem identified:


Then is the result of God’s grace:


So, according to this explanation, salvation is a linear process:
1. Somehow we receive God’s grace
2. The HS sanctifies us

Question: Is humility a choice? If we need the HS to do ANYTHING that pleases God,
what role does God’s Grace play in humility? Do we humble ourselves, or does God do that for us?

Both James 4:6 an 1 Peter 5:5 state: “God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.” which I believe is referencing Proverbs 3:34.

If the cause (grace) equals the result (grace), then God loves who he loves, and I suppose it really doesn’t matter what we say or do, because God is all-powerful and if He wants you He’ll find you.

If, however, humility is a choice, then we can actually choose Christ over sin, exercise faith, and receive grace, which gets the ball rolling.

Which is it?
Is humility a choice apart from God having first called us, or do you contend that it is a choice from man's conscious effort to seek God on his own. Does your definition of humility always line up with God's perfect will, & does it come from the Holy Spirit, or is it a personal self-satisfied humility? Aren't you giving yourself credit when you should be giving all the credit to God? What can anyone accomplish on their own apart from Christ?
 
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