The Christian God is Love?

Furion

Well-known member
It is what it is. If the evidence points to there being no Christian God, then I will believe there is no Christian God, even if I do not like the consequences of that. I cannot choose to think God exists because I would prefer reality to be that that.

Is it different for you? Do you think Christianity is true because that is what you want to be the case, rather than because that is what evidence points to?


Not sure I get your point here.


In what sense is God love? Presumably you are not saying the words are synonyms.

If God is love, why does he choose to send people to the hell he created? What sort of love is that?


So again I ask, how is that love? How do you reconcile sending people to eternal torture with love?


I find it disturbing that we are not permitted to think about whether God is good. Why would God punish us - send us to eternal torture - if we question if he is good or not? I think the only answer is that God is not good. He wants us to believe he is good, but it is not true, and to stop anyone saying that it is not true, he declares that those who judge him will be tortured forever.

It is an Orwellian totalitarian regime where people are tortured if they fail to spout the one-party propaganda. It is a rejection of truth and freedom. It is the antithesis of good - but we dare not say that!
All you can draw upon to judge God is your anthropomorphic view of God. God is not a man.

No one is stopping you from constantly claiming that God is bad. In fact you did it yesterday, you'll likely do it today.

You have three score and ten to get all the bitter bile out, to tell the world you hate the propoganda of love, to judge God for yourself, with your own mouth, with your own heart.

After that God makes His judgment. He is impartial, not biased like humans.

What won't happen is people like me having to hear people like you for eternity. Love is not required to suffer that long.

You seem to miss the connection between you saying "orwellian totalitarian regime", and you somehow being not allowed to say it. Your heart says it for you, and at times your mouth or fingers comply. But again, only for a limited time. You just want to do it for eternity. Maybe you can, but I don't think you'll have an audience for your words.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
All you can draw upon to judge God is your anthropomorphic view of God. God is not a man.
So what is your point? God is not human, therefore it is moral for him to torture whoever he feels like?

I disagree. In my opinion, if an intelligent being tortures another intelligent being, that is morally wrong. Simple as that.

There is no rationalising that away by saying he is God, therefore it does not apply.

No one is stopping you from constantly claiming that God is bad. In fact you did it yesterday, you'll likely do it today.
To be clear, I am saying the god as conceptualised by Christianity is morally bad. I think God does not actually exist.

You have three score and ten to get all the bitter bile out, to tell the world you hate the propoganda of love, to judge God for yourself, with your own mouth, with your own heart.
The point here is that the idea that God is all-loving is not consistent with the God who sends billions to hell to be tortured. Christianity is, therefore, not coherent, and should be rejected.

It is interesting to note that your response here utterly fails to address that. This is something I have discussed with several other Christians on CARM over the years, and every time their responses are broadly the same. Accusations that I hate God, warnings that I will go to hell.

None of them can ever tell me how they reconcile a God who apparent "is love" with a God who sends billions to torture. None of them actually address the apparent contradiction inherent in Christianity.

Why should I give a hoot about claims I will go to hell when they re made by people whose belief system makes no sense?

After that God makes His judgment. He is impartial, not biased like humans.
And yet Christian doctrine says that actually he is biased. He gives a free pass to those who worship him, and tortures those who do not. It is cronyism, pure and simple.

You seem to miss the connection between you saying "orwellian totalitarian regime", and you somehow being not allowed to say it. Your heart says it for you, and at times your mouth or fingers comply. But again, only for a limited time. You just want to do it for eternity. Maybe you can, but I don't think you'll have an audience for your words.
Will God punish me for judging him or not? Previously you seemed to be saying he would. Now you seem to be saying he will not. Please clarify.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
Yet the door is left open for exceptions -not all life is to be destroyed.
Maybe. My point is that it is horrific to choose to kill every man, woman, child, and baby by drowning. It is horrific to sauce the flood and then watch children slowly drown while screaming. It is especially horrific is a god that can which them to heaven with a snap is doing this.

So yes - saving a few people is nice I guess. If you burn down a building full of thousands and watch them scream and burn but you pulled one family out that is good and all. However, it does nothing to lessen the pure evil of watching the other thousand burn when you can stop the fire with a thought.

And that was my main point :)
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
I find it disturbing that we are not permitted to think about whether God is good.
Of course we can think about whether God is good. Ever been to a Christian church? They talk about how they think God is good constantly - it is a major part of the religion.

So it is completely consistent with Christian theology to think about if God is good or not Good. Christians do not like it when the answer is anything except good. But that kind of cognitive bias is intellectually dishonest (and a logical fallacy) so we can ignore it in our Socratic little world here on CARM.

Besides, good and evil are subjective - they are entirely your personal opinion on right and wrong. And no one can tell you what you can and cannot have an opinion on.

The exception is Led Zeppelin. Led Zeppelin is empirically, objectively, awesome. Anyone who says different is a heretic.

;)
 

Furion

Well-known member
So what is your point? God is not human, therefore it is moral for him to torture whoever he feels like?

I disagree. In my opinion, if an intelligent being tortures another intelligent being, that is morally wrong. Simple as that.

There is no rationalising that away by saying he is God, therefore it does not apply.

For one you are taking your very limited intelligence and incorrectly surmising God is on your level. This is folly, and full of ignorance.

I would say that if you look at a single cell creature, and compare yourself with it like you are doing, you will come off very advanced and intelligent in that comparison. Like a god.

But when you compare yourself to God, He is far higher above us than you are to a single cell creature. Have you noticed the fantastical nature of this universe yet?

I find your analysis full of ignorance. You should step back and revaluate your littleness in this universe. It's not an insult, it is a blindingly obvious fact.

To be clear, I am saying the god as conceptualised by Christianity is morally bad. I think God does not actually exist.


The point here is that the idea that God is all-loving is not consistent with the God who sends billions to hell to be tortured. Christianity is, therefore, not coherent, and should be rejected.

It is interesting to note that your response here utterly fails to address that. This is something I have discussed with several other Christians on CARM over the years, and every time their responses are broadly the same. Accusations that I hate God, warnings that I will go to hell.

One cannot convince another against their will.

None of them can ever tell me how they reconcile a God who apparent "is love" with a God who sends billions to torture. None of them actually address the apparent contradiction inherent in Christianity.

Why should I give a hoot about claims I will go to hell when they re made by people whose belief system makes no sense?

It is the reason you are here. And I will add that if you are cocksure of your view, like you portray yourself to be, there is no reason for you to be here, you think you already know.

To be clear, hard atheists such as yourself have confusing priorities.

And yet Christian doctrine says that actually he is biased. He gives a free pass to those who worship him, and tortures those who do not. It is cronyism, pure and simple.


Will God punish me for judging him or not? Previously you seemed to be saying he would. Now you seem to be saying he will not. Please clarify.

Like I stated already and you avoid, love need not suffer evil. Why should it?

You want to think you are not evil, but you've not persuaded me of your claim.

Imagine if you will, people in heaven joyous and going about doing things, and there you sit on the gold paved street breathing out murderous contempt for God for eternity, the God who gave you life and entrance to paradise.

That makes no sense, and God does not measure evil as men do.

Which is your primary problem, your ignorance of what God declares evil to be.

Men are not good, but they can do some good things. And they can do bad things. The bad things are evil, and mans capacity to do them is virtually unlimited. You have no ability to stop the bad things, just man's feeble self control.

Which is what the Spirit provides to men, self control. Without the Spirits help, you'll need to rely on your own discerment of good from evil, which can be clouded, but your own ability to control yourself is very weak. And you throw in murderous contempt, it exasperates your problem to infinity.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
For one you are taking your very limited intelligence and incorrectly surmising God is on your level. This is folly, and full of ignorance.
Okay, so tell me why it is incorrect.

I would say that if you look at a single cell creature, and compare yourself with it like you are doing, you will come off very advanced and intelligent in that comparison. Like a god.
So in fact your argument comes down to God being above morality because he is God.

Okay, that works for you; I guess you hold to moral relativism. I do not. In my view morality applies to all intelligent beings the same. What is morally wrong for one is also morally wrong for another.

But when you compare yourself to God, He is far higher above us than you are to a single cell creature. Have you noticed the fantastical nature of this universe yet?
Again, this is just saying God is acting morally because he is God. I reject your moral relativism.

I find your analysis full of ignorance. You should step back and revaluate your littleness in this universe. It's not an insult, it is a blindingly obvious fact.
It clearly IS an insult. If you were sincere, you would respond to my points with your own analysis, to show why yours is superior. The answer to ignorance is education. I see no sign of that.

All you can offer is that God is morally good because he is God. Do you honestly think that such a claim is going to help me overcome my supposed ignorance?

It is the reason you are here. And I will add that if you are cocksure of your view, like you portray yourself to be, there is no reason for you to be here, you think you already know.
Are you certain of your position? In what way am I "cocksure" of my view, and you are not equally "cocksure" of your view? You have already called my "analysis full of ignorance"; that looks pretty "cocksure" to me.

I will say here and now that I could be wrong, and you could be right. Are you prepared to admit the same? Who is the "cocksure" one here?

Perhaps you need to sort out the beam in your eye?

To be clear, hard atheists such as yourself have confusing priorities.
I am not a hard atheist.

Like I stated already and you avoid, love need not suffer evil. Why should it?
What does that mean? What do you imagine I am avoiding?

You want to think you are not evil, but you've not persuaded me of your claim.
So you think I am evil? Wow. Is that an insult? Or just a "blindingly obvious fact"?

Imagine if you will, people in heaven joyous and going about doing things, and there you sit on the gold paved street breathing out murderous contempt for God for eternity, the God who gave you life and entrance to paradise.
Why? What is your point?

Do you even know what an atheist is? Atheist is someone who does not think God exists. That means we do have "murderous contempt" for God. Think it through.

That makes no sense, and God does not measure evil as men do.
Again with your moral relativism. To me, if a thing is evil, then it is evil. It is not a question of who is measuring it.

Which is your primary problem, your ignorance of what God declares evil to be.
Your problem is that I have read much of the Bible, and I know what God declares to be evil. And I disagree with him. God declares eating shellfish and wearing garments of mixed fabrics to be wrong, but chattel slavery to be okay.

I am sure you are not ignorant of "what God declares evil to be", so you already knew that. Therefore you must think eating shellfish and wearing garments of mixed fabrics are wrong, yes?

And you do think slavery is moral?

Men are not good, but they can do some good things. And they can do bad things. The bad things are evil, and mans capacity to do them is virtually unlimited. You have no ability to stop the bad things, just man's feeble self control.
Well, duh! So what is your point? We should worship a God who tortures billions because he is good, as long as we measure what is good differently for God? I am not going to do that. Torturing people is morally wrong, whether God does it or a man does it.

Which is what the Spirit provides to men, self control. Without the Spirits help, you'll need to rely on your own discerment of good from evil, which can be clouded, but your own ability to control yourself is very weak. And you throw in murderous contempt, it exasperates your problem to infinity.
And yet I live a moral life. I do not rape, murder, steal, lie or commit adultery. I have raised a family, within a marriage, without divorce, and have a great relationship with my kids, who are also good people (and pretty much grown up now). Not in your opinion, I am sure. I do not doubt that Christians will tell me my children deserve to suffer in hell for eternity.

Do you have children? Do they deserve to burn in hell for eternity? I say no. Your God says yes.
 

treeplanter

Well-known member

It is OUR opinion - his, mine, and YOURS!
Yes, it is OUR opinion that drowning babies is evil
It is OUR opinion that owning slaves is evil
It is OUR opinion that killing people because they don't believe in God is evil

And it is FACT {per scripture} that God did these evil things
 

Furion

Well-known member
Okay, so tell me why it is incorrect.


So in fact your argument comes down to God being above morality because he is God.

It is not an argument, God is not a man.

Okay, that works for you; I guess you hold to moral relativism. I do not. In my view morality applies to all intelligent beings the same. What is morally wrong for one is also morally wrong for another.

That is simply incorrect. The morality for other creatures is not the same as ours. Man has his unique morality. You again are trying to say that because God and man are intelligent, they are equivalent. A decidedly anthropomorphic view.

Again, this is just saying God is acting morally because he is God. I reject your moral relativism.


It clearly IS an insult. If you were sincere, you would respond to my points with your own analysis, to show why yours is superior. The answer to ignorance is education. I see no sign of that.

Don't start telling me what to respond to, I will just tell you the same, you do not address my points. Have some self awareness, it's not all about you.

All you can offer is that God is morally good because he is God. Do you honestly think that such a claim is going to help me overcome my supposed ignorance?


Are you certain of your position? In what way am I "cocksure" of my view, and you are not equally "cocksure" of your view? You have already called my "analysis full of ignorance"; that looks pretty "cocksure" to me.

I will say here and now that I could be wrong, and you could be right. Are you prepared to admit the same? Who is the "cocksure" one here?

Perhaps you need to sort out the beam in your eye?


I am not a hard atheist.


What does that mean? What do you imagine I am avoiding?


So you think I am evil? Wow. Is that an insult? Or just a "blindingly obvious fact"?


Why? What is your point?

Do you even know what an atheist is? Atheist is someone who does not think God exists. That means we do have "murderous contempt" for God. Think it through.


Again with your moral relativism. To me, if a thing is evil, then it is evil. It is not a question of who is measuring it.


Your problem is that I have read much of the Bible, and I know what God declares to be evil. And I disagree with him. God declares eating shellfish and wearing garments of mixed fabrics to be wrong, but chattel slavery to be okay.

I am sure you are not ignorant of "what God declares evil to be", so you already knew that. Therefore you must think eating shellfish and wearing garments of mixed fabrics are wrong, yes?

And you do think slavery is moral?


Well, duh! So what is your point? We should worship a God who tortures billions because he is good, as long as we measure what is good differently for God? I am not going to do that. Torturing people is morally wrong, whether God does it or a man does it.


And yet I live a moral life. I do not rape, murder, steal, lie or commit adultery. I have raised a family, within a marriage, without divorce, and have a great relationship with my kids, who are also good people (and pretty much grown up now). Not in your opinion, I am sure. I do not doubt that Christians will tell me my children deserve to suffer in hell for eternity.

Do you have children? Do they deserve to burn in hell for eternity? I say no. Your God says yes.

Again you simply refuse to grasp God is not a man, and that you are a good person, that you live a moral life.

You, man, has his perspective, and God has His.

You simply compare yourself with others and think you are good.

Pigs do that, and they all think they look and smell great, whoopdeedoo.

You will just need to focus like a laser and consider one aspect and work through it. Such as the "good person" thingy you claim, or the fact that God is not a man, and what that means in relation to you.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Yes, it is OUR opinion that drowning babies is evil
It is OUR opinion that owning slaves is evil
It is OUR opinion that killing people because they don't believe in God is evil

And it is FACT {per scripture} that God did these evil things
It's not MY opinion, so when you state----

It is OUR opinion - his, mine, and YOURS!​
you've imposed YOUR opinion, on me.
Thus, as I stated, you don't seek agreement. You seek capitulation. I don't capitulate.
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
It's not MY opinion, so when you state----


you've imposed YOUR opinion, on me.
Thus, as I stated, you don't seek agreement. You seek capitulation. I don't capitulate.
It IS your opinion, Steve

The FACT that you refuse to state that:

1. Drowning babies is good and just
2. Owning slaves is good and just
3. Killing people because they don't believe in God is good and just

is the proof that you know these things to be evil and immoral
 

SteveB

Well-known member
It IS your opinion, Steve
nope.
The FACT that you refuse to state that:

1. Drowning babies is good and just
First you've yet to demonstrate that there were any babies alive at the time of the flood. It's clearly not stated in the text.
You have admitted that the thoughts and intents of babies are not evil. You have admitted that what God said was true--- every thought, and intent of the hearts of those who were alive was only continually evil. So, since the thoughts, and intents of the hearts of babies are not evil, you've admitted, in a back-door sort of way that there were no babies alive at that time.
Which means that you don't really understand what you're talking about.
2. Owning slaves is good and just
I don't see where the bible teaches that owning another human being is good and just.
I see where it describes other humans owning another human being, and it then says if you are going to do this, here are the restrictions/requirements/limitations on how they are to be treated, and consequences for violations of those laws.


3. Killing people because they don't believe in God is good and just
I'm not seeing that the bible says killing someone because they don't believe in God is good and just.
I do see where the wages of sin is death. I do see where God warned Adam if he were to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, he'd die. I see where God plainly says that those who keep his law will live, and those who do not will die.
So, since it's plainly shown in Genesis 6, Genesis 15, that God gave the people hundreds of years to turn to him, from their sin, and they refused, and since God also said the land is his, to give to the people whom he wants to give it, he has the right to define who will live in it.

Or do you want people to sacrice their children on the arms of demons, heated to red hot, so they're cooked alive?
Do you want mothers and fathers to cheat on each other, destroying their families?
Do you want people to murder one another, rape one another, mug, rob, steal, riot against, etc.... one another?


is the proof that you know these things to be evil and immoral
You obviously have no problem with people destroying the lives of their fellow humans.
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
nope.

First you've yet to demonstrate that there were any babies alive at the time of the flood. It's clearly not stated in the text.
You have admitted that the thoughts and intents of babies are not evil. You have admitted that what God said was true--- every thought, and intent of the hearts of those who were alive was only continually evil. So, since the thoughts, and intents of the hearts of babies are not evil, you've admitted, in a back-door sort of way that there were no babies alive at that time.
Which means that you don't really understand what you're talking about.

I don't see where the bible teaches that owning another human being is good and just.
I see where it describes other humans owning another human being, and it then says if you are going to do this, here are the restrictions/requirements/limitations on how they are to be treated, and consequences for violations of those laws.



I'm not seeing that the bible says killing someone because they don't believe in God is good and just.
I do see where the wages of sin is death. I do see where God warned Adam if he were to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, he'd die. I see where God plainly says that those who keep his law will live, and those who do not will die.
So, since it's plainly shown in Genesis 6, Genesis 15, that God gave the people hundreds of years to turn to him, from their sin, and they refused, and since God also said the land is his, to give to the people whom he wants to give it, he has the right to define who will live in it.

Or do you want people to sacrice their children on the arms of demons, heated to red hot, so they're cooked alive?
Do you want mothers and fathers to cheat on each other, destroying their families?
Do you want people to murder one another, rape one another, mug, rob, steal, riot against, etc.... one another?



You obviously have no problem with people destroying the lives of their fellow humans.
It IS YOUR OPINION that it is evil and immoral to
1. Drown babies
2. Own slaves
3. Kill unbelievers

All you have to do to prove otherwise, Steve, is to state that it is good and just to do these things

That you refuse to do so is because it IS YOUR OPINION that these things are evil and immoral


Steve, as always, it is YOU who does not understand what you are talking about
I have never once agreed that what God said about the thoughts and intents of man being continually evil was true
To the contrary, it was a lie
God lied about man, Steve

The text says nothing about no babies being present
To the contrary, the text says that God drowned the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE and the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE means people of every age - including children and babies

Failure to condemn slavery along with tips on how to own slaves coming from a supposedly good and just god amounts to God endorsing slavery as good and just

For God to command His followers to kill unbelievers is the same thing as an assertion from God that it is good and just to kill unbelievers

Do you think that God commands us to do things that are not good and just - i.e. evil and immoral?

Wrong, Steve - I do have a problem with people destroying human life
I have a problem with ANYONE destroying human life - especially a supposedly good and just god who is supposed to know better!
 
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Lt. Columbo

New Member
Yes, but is this reason enough to glorify God?

He drowned the entire human race minus one man and his family...

He has decreed that you, I, and every other man is born fated for Hell minus the acceptance of salvific grace bestowed by Christ...

I trust that you would feel grateful towards me if I pulled you to safety from your burning house
Would you still feel grateful, however, if it were revealed that it was I who consciously and purposefully set your house on fire?

I'm curious why God said he was going to destroy all life, and then not do it.

As a homicide detective in Los Angeles my job requires me to tie up loose ends. This is a loose end that needs tied up. :)
 

SteveB

Well-known member
It IS YOUR OPINION that it is evil and immoral to
1. Drown babies
2. Own slaves
3. Kill unbelievers

All you have to do to prove otherwise, Steve, is to state that it is good and just to do these things

That you refuse to do so is because it IS YOUR OPINION that these things are evil and immoral


Steve, as always, it is YOU who does not understand what you are talking about
I have never once agreed that what God said about the thoughts and intents of man being continually evil was true
To the contrary, it was a lie
God lied about man, Steve

The text says nothing about no babies being present
To the contrary, the text says that God drowned the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE and the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE means people of every age - including children and babies

Failure to condemn slavery along with tips on how to own slaves coming from a supposedly good and just god amounts to God endorsing slavery as good and just

For God to command His followers to kill unbelievers is the same thing as an assertion from God that it is good and just to kill unbelievers

Do you think that God commands us to do things that are not good and just - i.e. evil and immoral?

Wrong, Steve - I do have a problem with people destroying human life
I have a problem with ANYONE destroying human life - especially a supposedly good and just god who is supposed to know better!
nope.
Not my opinion.
Stop demanding I capitulate.
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
I'm curious why God said he was going to destroy all life, and then not do it.

As a homicide detective in Los Angeles my job requires me to tie up loose ends. This is a loose end that needs tied up. :)
I, too, am curious, but not surprised...

God does, after all, have a history of lying to us
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
nope.
Not my opinion.
Stop demanding I capitulate.
Yep, it IS YOUR OPINION, Steve!

State that it is good and just to drown babies, own slaves, and kill unbelievers and I will apologize to you for having mischaracterized you!

We both know you won't, though
and we both know why!

It's because you share the same opinion as do I and most every other human being that it is evil and immoral to drown babies, own slaves, and kill unbelievers

Face it, Steve
You're up against the ropes

You cannot reconcile God's actions with your own better judgment - what are you going to do?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Yep, it IS YOUR OPINION, Steve!

State that it is good and just to drown babies, own slaves, and kill unbelievers and I will apologize to you for having mischaracterized you!

We both know you won't, though
and we both know why!

It's because you share the same opinion as do I and most every other human being that it is evil and immoral to drown babies, own slaves, and kill unbelievers

Face it, Steve
You're up against the ropes

You cannot reconcile God's actions with your own better judgment - what are you going to do?
nope.
Not my opinion.
You're still seeking capitulation, and imposing your beliefs on me.
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
nope.
Not my opinion.
You're still seeking capitulation, and imposing your beliefs on me.
Prove it, Steve!

Prove that you do not share my opinion that it is evil and immoral to drown babies, own slaves, and kill unbelievers

Tell me that these things are good and just and I will start a brand new thread titled:

An Apology To Steve

wherein I will offer as profuse an apology as has ever been seen on CARM!
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Prove it, Steve!

Prove that you do not share my opinion that it is evil and immoral to drown babies, own slaves, and kill unbelievers

Tell me that these things are good and just and I will start a brand new thread titled:

An Apology To Steve

wherein I will offer as profuse an apology as has ever been seen on CARM!
you really do have a piss-poor attention span.
 

treeplanter

Well-known member
you really do have a piss-poor attention span.
You're a strange guy, Steve!

You're also a guy who shares the same opinion as do I and most every other person on earth

We all agree that drowning babies, owning slaves, and killing unbelievers is immoral and evil

We also know, for the bible tells us so, that God drowned babies and endorsed slavery and commanded His followers to kill unbelievers

I know that you know how to add one and one, Steve!

If XYZ is immoral and evil
and God does XYZ
then God is immoral and evil

You just can't bring yourself to say it, though
Strange...
 
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