The Christian God is Love?

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
Henotheism is more like what I believe. It is devotion to a Supreme God over all who manifests as many gods.
Fascinating - I have never heard of this - thank you. This seems to be in conflict with The Bible though. Do you know of anything in scripture that describes God as manifesting as many gods? Or the names of those gods?
Except that is what Elohim means in the Old Testament, that is, "gods". It is the plural of El in the Old Testament. El even tells us that we are Elohim: "I said, “You are elohim (“gods”), sons of the El*yown (“Most High”), all of you; nevertheless, like men you shall die (Psalm 82:6).

In the New Testament "gods" is expressed as "sons" of God, for example, "For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." (Romans 8:14)

Christian orthodoxy recognizes at least four independent gods. They recognize the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, and they recognize the "God of this world" or devil, according to Paul; although they confound them all and have no idea who is who. It is a "mystery" to them as they like to say.
I have never seen it interpreted this way. Thank you for explaining :)
Yes, there is supposed to be only one all powerful God who is independently manifest in creation as his own Son, for example, "indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." (1 corinthians 8:6).

But the catch is that Jesus Christ is in you, and me, and in all things, making us the "sons" of God or put another way, the Elohim ("gods"). The flip side is that YHWH/Adversary is also in us. The former is the archetype for Good manifest as virtues and the latter is the archetype for Bad manifest as the impulses of the flesh, for example, fits of anger, jealousy, strife, envy, etc.
Ah - ok - that makes sense. Thank you.
So even if you don't believe in God (El) or gods (Elohim), we are all faced with a choice to either submit to bad impulses, such as, anger, lust, etc. or submit to what we know is good, truth, love, etc.
I agree - we all must make our own moral choices and decisions and then live with the consequences - this applies to the atheist, the Christian, and the Hindu alike.
It is inherent in us: Jesus/Spirit duking it out with YHWH/Adversary and our souls stand in the middle, --which one will we choose to be? It is an inescapable part of everyones life. So the supreme God looks at all of us recognizing our independence but rooting for us to choose the Jesus/Spirit, that is, the good in us.
This makes no sense to me. If God is omnipotent and he is 'rooting' for us then why put us through all this suffering at all? If God loved us and was rooting for us to be kind and good then He could have left us in The Garden. Or put humans straight into Heaven.

If God is omnipotent then he wants to see us suffer. He wants to see billions of us make the wrong choice so he can send us to burn forever. If He did not then he could stop it at any time. Instead he watches and 'roots' like he is an observer with no power to help. He is omnipotent - he wants to see his son and the devil fight more than just putting humans into paradise.

He is not rooting for us. He is watching us like a reality TV show. And he is ready to burn us if we do the wrong thing.

If someone said you had the power to either put your children in paradise or have them suffer and possibly burn forever what would you choose? Would you make your kids suffer and 'root' for them to get a happy ending? Would you put your own kids in a lake of fire for eternity by the billions?

It really makes no sense :)
YHWH Elohim/Adversary of men ordered all that stuff in the OT (1). YHWH has fits of anger, jealousy, strife.
Then God is not love. God does not love us. He is an angry, jealous God. And I personally would never worship such a being even if he had a change of heart.
It is YHWH who declares himself "God" and no other. Do you see what the authors are writing for our instruction? So many don't. YHWH and flesh are associated and if both rule over us then we experience temptation, sin and condemnation. The flesh produced by YHWH desires sin, the Law attributed to YHWH condemns it, and YHWH kills us for the sin produced by the flesh formed by YHWH. YHWH is the ADVERSARY of humans because he forms the flesh. Paul said the flesh wars against the spirit while the soul is pulled in either direction.

On the other hand, Ruach Elohim/Jesus represent the virtues. If our soul serves Good, Love, Truth, etc. then our soul is saved and free from condemnation, although the body of flesh still dies. The hope is for a new temple for our soul that serves the Good Soul, rather than doing its own thing, --and also does not wear out like the current body does.
This all makes sense as long as God is not omnipotent. If God is omnipotent then all of this is meaningless since God can change anything at will. If we suffer and burn it is because God wants it that way.

There is just no other way to see that I'm afraid.
Others have come to the same conclusion that YHWH is not the best example to follow and quite possibly working against us.
Then it seems silly to praise and worship him - to me anyway.

Thanks for sharing your views - they are unusual and I enjoy learning how people think. Have a great day :)
 

Howie

Well-known member
I do not understand how anyone can read The Bible and conclude that the god described is a god of love. Can Christians help me understand why you think God is a loving god? We know from The Bible that God chose to do a lot of things that I, and I hope most humans, would consider quite cruel and unloving.

If someone asked you to describe a person or god based on these actions, would you say they are loving? Or does this sound more like a brutal, third world, sadistic dictator?
  • Marry Your Rapist: God said that if a man rapes a virgin then the victim has to marry the rapist (Deuteronomy 22:29-29)
  • Eat your Children: God said he would punish people by forcing them to eat the flesh of their own children (Leviticus 26:26-28)
  • Kill Children: God ordered his followers to kill all the women and children they conquered (Joshua 6:20, Deuteronomy 2:32, 1 Numbers: 31)
  • Take Virgins as Property: God orders his people to keep the virgin women of the people they conquer as prizes (1 Numbers 31)
  • Kill Everyone on Earth: God killed every living man, woman, and child on Earth by the slow, terrifying death of drowning (Genesis 7)
  • Human Sacrifice: God accepted human sacrifice to gain his favor (Judges 11:36)
  • Kill Teenagers for being Rebellious: God ordered the town to stone teenagers to death for disobedience (Deuteronomy 21)
  • Legitimize Slavery: God gave clear instructions on how to properly own people as property and never condemned it as a sin (Exodus 21:20–21, Colossians 3:22–24, Ephesians 6:5, 1 Peter 2:18)
  • Give People Disease: God gave Pharaoh and his household diseases because they believed the lie that Abram, God's chosen, told them (Genesis 12)
  • Offering your Daughters for Sex is Righteous: Lot offers his daughters to the angels for sex. God considers Lot to be a 'righteous man' (2 Peter 2)
  • Death Sentence for Simple Disobedience: Lot's wife disobeys her husband and looks over her shoulder - for this she is instantly killed and turned to salt (Genesis 19)
  • Order Parents to Kill their Children: God orders Isaac to kill his own child just to prove his love of God (Genesis 22)
There are more. I mean, if you did anything on that list you would be arrested and sent to prison. They are all felonies in the USA. How are these the actions of a loving god?

However, if you read about a god or world leader who did any of this what would you think? If a world leader said he believes that victims of rape should marry their rapist, slavery was ok as long as you follow certain rules. it is ok to take the virgins from your neighboring country by force and keep them as property, and had the death sentence for wives who disobey their husbands would you say he is a good, kind, and loving leader?

I do not understand how anyone can read The Bible and conclude that this is a god of love. But I am open to ideas :)
Lol.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
Fascinating - I have never heard of this - thank you. This seems to be in conflict with The Bible though. Do you know of anything in scripture that describes God as manifesting as many gods? Or the names of those gods?

I have never seen it interpreted this way. Thank you for explaining :)

Ah - ok - that makes sense. Thank you.

I agree - we all must make our own moral choices and decisions and then live with the consequences - this applies to the atheist, the Christian, and the Hindu alike.

This makes no sense to me.

You should try harder applying what did make sense to you above.
If God is omnipotent and he is 'rooting' for us then why put us through all this suffering at all?
Which God? I described a few. Were you paying attention or just pretending?
If God loved us and was rooting for us to be kind and good then He could have left us in The Garden.
Which God? I described a few from scripture. Were you paying attention or just pretending?

Or put humans straight into Heaven.
Which God? I described a few from scripture. Were you paying attention or just pretending?
If God is omnipotent then he wants to see us suffer.
Which God? I described a few from scripture, to include the Adversary of men, which scripture calls the "God of this world" (2 Corinthians 4:4). Were. you paying attention or just pretending?
He wants to see billions of us make the wrong choice so he can send us to burn forever. If He did not then he could stop it at any time. Instead he watches and 'roots' like he is an observer with no power to help. He is omnipotent - he wants to see his son and the devil fight more than just putting humans into paradise.
Which God? I described a few. You were obviously not paying attention and were just pretending.
He is not rooting for us. He is watching us like a reality TV show. And he is ready to burn us if we do the wrong thing.
Which God? I described a few from scripture. You were obviously not paying attention and were just pretending.
If someone said you had the power to either put your children in paradise or have them suffer and possibly burn forever what would you choose?
Which God are you talking about? I described a few from scripture. You were not paying attention were you?
Would you make your kids suffer
Which God are you referring to? I described a few from scripture. It seems you have a fixation on the Adversary of Men which is called, the "God of this world." (2 Corinthians 4:4)
and 'root' for them to get a happy ending?
I would recognize the independence of my sons or daughters and I would root for them to make the right choices.

Would you put your own kids in a lake of fire for eternity by the billions?
I would recognize the independence of my sons and daughters and I would root for them to make the right choices and reward them for doing so.
It really makes no sense :)
You make no sense.
Then God is not love.
Which God? Scripture identifies many. Were you paying attention? Apparently not. Apparently, you like hearing yourself rant about the the Adversary of men. Too bad you don't spend more time processing what I said earlier and try to understand the Good God who still roots for you even though you reject him. (see above)
God does not love us.
Which God? Scripture identifies many. Apparently you are fixated on the "God of this world" aka, the Adversary.
He is an angry, jealous God. And I personally would never worship such a being even if he had a change of heart.
Sounds like you are still fixated on the Adversary. When you are finished ranting I recommend you consider the other God in scripture who alone is Good. He still roots for all of us to choose the Good.
This all makes sense as long as God is not omnipotent.
Which God? Are you still fixated on the Adversary of Men. I recommend starting at the top again and identify the Good God.
If God is omnipotent then all of this is meaningless since God can change anything at will.
Which God? Even if you were referring to the good God who is supreme over all then he will not force you to do something against your will otherwise you would condemn him for not giving you the freedom to choose. You apparently do not appreciate the freedom you have to choose because you would prefer it be taken from you. I am certain that the Adversary of Men would be happy to accommodate you.
If we suffer and burn it is because God wants it that way.
Which God? It appears you remain fixated on the Adversary of Men which is called the "God of this world" in scripture (2 Corinthians 4:4). I recommend returning to the top of the post and start again, unless you are just pretending to comprehend.
There is just no other way to see that I'm afraid.
That happens when you construct a straw man. You should try using another course of logic. Maybe try comprehending the post from the beginning and stop fixating on the Adversary of Humans.
Then it seems silly to praise and worship him - to me anyway.
Which "him"? Are you still fixated on the Adversary of Men?
Thanks for sharing your views - they are unusual and I enjoy learning how people think. Have a great day :)
I enjoy watching people feign a logical response. You should know me well enough by now that I am not going to let you get off that easy. I don't consider that a serious attempt at a response. Have a great day.
 
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