The Christian Hell

Jack Hammer

Member
The doctrine of Hell has destroyed many lives especially by suicide. The idea of hell being a prison of eternal torment as punishment for a short lifespan contradicts a just and loving God. I've changed my mind on this issue lately and believe hell was simply interpreted wrong since the dawn of the Catholic age, continuing into Protestantism.

The main purpose of this page is to show how many times is the word (words) hell is used in the bible.

This is a difficult issue and why so many churches differ on the issue. Every verse where gnashing is mentioned implies regret and destruction - annihilation. The only way I see to reconcile it and make the bible become non-contradictory on the issue of hell is to collectively take what it says - and it says THREE different things!

There is...

1. Heaven for those who truly accept Christ;

2. Eternal damnation for the truly evil.

3. Annihilation (non-existence) for those who could care less - AKA those who are not outright evil OR true believers. IOW - whatever cannot be redeemed by God is ultimately put out of existence. Every scripture where eternal punishment or damnation is expressed denotes total annihilation.

OT NT Total
"Authorized" King James Version (KJV), based on corrupted texts

31 23 54

New King James Version (NKJV), still wrong about Sheol

19 13 32

New International Version (NIV) the best-selling English Bible

0 13 13

American Standard Version (ASV)

0 13 13

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

0 13 13

Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB) Southern Baptist

0 11 11

Revised Standard Version (RSV)

0 12 12

New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

0 12 12

Revised English Bible (REB)

0 13 3

New Living Translation (NLT)

0 13 13

Amplified Bible (AMP)

0 13 13

Darby

0 12 12

New Century Version (NCV)

0 12 12

The word hell is not used in the translations below this line.

________________________________________________________________

New American Bible Revised Edition (NABRE) Roman Catholic

Wesley's New Testament (1755)

Scarlett's N.T. (1798)

The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)

Young's Literal Translation (1891)

Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)

Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)

Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)

Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903)

Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)

Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)

The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)

Hanson's New Covenant (1884)

Western N.T. (1926)

NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)

Concordant Literal NT (1983)

The N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)

Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)

New American Bible (1970)

Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976)

Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)

The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)

Christian Bible (1991)

World English Bible (in progress)

Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha [NT Only]

Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)

Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)**

Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)**

A Critical Paraphrase of the N.T. by Vincent T. Roth (1960)

0 0 0

The idea of hell has caused many mental illnesses.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
The doctrine of Hell has destroyed many lives especially by suicide. The idea of hell being a prison of eternal torment as punishment for a short lifespan contradicts a just and loving God. I've changed my mind on this issue lately and believe hell was simply interpreted wrong since the dawn of the Catholic age, continuing into Protestantism.

The main purpose of this page is to show how many times is the word (words) hell is used in the bible.

This is a difficult issue and why so many churches differ on the issue. Every verse where gnashing is mentioned implies regret and destruction - annihilation. The only way I see to reconcile it and make the bible become non-contradictory on the issue of hell is to collectively take what it says - and it says THREE different things!

There is...

1. Heaven for those who truly accept Christ;

2. Eternal damnation for the truly evil.

3. Annihilation (non-existence) for those who could care less - AKA those who are not outright evil OR true believers. IOW - whatever cannot be redeemed by God is ultimately put out of existence. Every scripture where eternal punishment or damnation is expressed denotes total annihilation.

OT NT Total
"Authorized" King James Version (KJV), based on corrupted texts

31 23 54

New King James Version (NKJV), still wrong about Sheol

19 13 32

New International Version (NIV) the best-selling English Bible

0 13 13

American Standard Version (ASV)

0 13 13

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

0 13 13

Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB) Southern Baptist

0 11 11

Revised Standard Version (RSV)

0 12 12

New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

0 12 12

Revised English Bible (REB)

0 13 3

New Living Translation (NLT)

0 13 13

Amplified Bible (AMP)

0 13 13

Darby

0 12 12

New Century Version (NCV)

0 12 12

The word hell is not used in the translations below this line.

________________________________________________________________

New American Bible Revised Edition (NABRE) Roman Catholic

Wesley's New Testament (1755)

Scarlett's N.T. (1798)

The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)

Young's Literal Translation (1891)

Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)

Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)

Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)

Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903)

Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)

Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)

The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)

Hanson's New Covenant (1884)

Western N.T. (1926)

NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)

Concordant Literal NT (1983)

The N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)

Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)

New American Bible (1970)

Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976)

Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)

The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)

Christian Bible (1991)

World English Bible (in progress)

Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha [NT Only]

Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)

Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)**

Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)**

A Critical Paraphrase of the N.T. by Vincent T. Roth (1960)

0 0 0

The idea of hell has caused many mental illnesses.
So.... you think that the fact people get their panties all tied up in knots, and it drives them over the edge, hell isn't for real?


Do you have evidence to support this change in thinking you've developed, or is this purely a matter of emotion?
 

Stephen

Active member
The doctrine of Hell has destroyed many lives especially by suicide. The idea of hell being a prison of eternal torment as punishment for a short lifespan contradicts a just and loving God. I've changed my mind on this issue lately and believe hell was simply interpreted wrong since the dawn of the Catholic age, continuing into Protestantism.

The main purpose of this page is to show how many times is the word (words) hell is used in the bible.

This is a difficult issue and why so many churches differ on the issue. Every verse where gnashing is mentioned implies regret and destruction - annihilation. The only way I see to reconcile it and make the bible become non-contradictory on the issue of hell is to collectively take what it says - and it says THREE different things!

It is one of those doctrines that makes you go hmmm....... and the obvious falseness made it easier look behind the curtain of "mainstream" Christianity.
 

Stephen

Active member
Translation: no, I don't have evidence. I just don't like Hell.

It is logical fallacy to assume something is true, and expect others to show evidence it is false.


However, since the command is to be ready to explain

  • "Hell" is absent in Genesis 1. Genesis 1 describes a material universe and everything in Genesis 1 is tangible. There are no netherworld regions. It describes the sun, moon, earth, heaven, earth, etc... as objects yet there is no "hell" or underworld described or mentioned.

  • "Hell" is absent where it most definitely should be present in Genesis 3. This is the passage where Adam is cursed The curse on Adam and Eve is painful childbirth, conflict, work, and "from dust you are and to dust you will return". The curse on Adam and Eve is not eternal life in fiery torment. The lie of the serpent is that if you sin you will live forever, the doctrine of hell teaches that exact same lie.

  • The condemnation is consistent through the bible. In Romans 5, Paul notes that by one man sin entered the world and death by sin. Death in the New Testament links back to death in Genesis 3. The condemnation does not link back to eternal life in fiery torment.

There are those that believe that man is immortal and lives on in eternal conscious torment. The fact is that man is mortal and dies. The doctrine of "hell" is pagan claptrap and an extension of the lie of the serpent "that you will not surely die".
 

Hawkeye

Active member
There are those that believe that man is immortal and lives on in eternal conscious torment. The fact is that man is mortal and dies. The doctrine of "hell" is pagan claptrap and an extension of the lie of the serpent "that you will not surely die".

It's always been interesting to me that no where in scripture are the words "Immortal Soul" to be found......but you will find them throughout mainstream theology in an attempt to justify this silly notion of an eternal bodily torment for the evil ones among us.

"Pagan Claptrap" (although I've never heard of this description) is very apropos.
 

Woody50

Member
It is logical fallacy to assume something is true, and expect others to show evidence it is false.


However, since the command is to be ready to explain

  • "Hell" is absent in Genesis 1. Genesis 1 describes a material universe and everything in Genesis 1 is tangible. There are no netherworld regions. It describes the sun, moon, earth, heaven, earth, etc... as objects yet there is no "hell" or underworld described or mentioned.

  • "Hell" is absent where it most definitely should be present in Genesis 3. This is the passage where Adam is cursed The curse on Adam and Eve is painful childbirth, conflict, work, and "from dust you are and to dust you will return". The curse on Adam and Eve is not eternal life in fiery torment. The lie of the serpent is that if you sin you will live forever, the doctrine of hell teaches that exact same lie.

  • The condemnation is consistent through the bible. In Romans 5, Paul notes that by one man sin entered the world and death by sin. Death in the New Testament links back to death in Genesis 3. The condemnation does not link back to eternal life in fiery torment.

There are those that believe that man is immortal and lives on in eternal conscious torment. The fact is that man is mortal and dies. The doctrine of "hell" is pagan claptrap and an extension of the lie of the serpent "that you will not surely die".
So, you're saying that all Christ said was about...? You know what I'm talking about. I'm hearing you, please understand, but the "absence" of a word in the Word is hardly convincing.
 

Stephen

Active member
So, you're saying that all Christ said was about...? You know what I'm talking about. I'm hearing you, please understand, but the "absence" of a word in the Word is hardly convincing.

The absence of a word isn't convincing. The absence of a concept in the very place it should be present, i.e. where the curse is placed on Adam, should be convincing.

The passage you are speaking of is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31 (Link). Look closely at the passage, this is a parable by Jesus, not a description of actual events. For example:
  • Heaven isn't mentioned in the passage. It speaks of "the bosom of Abraham". This place isn't defined in scripture,
  • Likewise, "hades" or "hell" place mentioned in the passage isn't described in scripture either.
  • These people are taken bodily. The rich man looks with his eyes, he wants a drop of water from a finger placed upon his tongue. These body parts rot away in the grave, they aren't carried away by angels.
  • There is a gulf between Abraham and the rich man, yet the rich man wants Lazarus to come visit him.
  • The rich man speaks and has a conversation with Abraham. Not with angels, or whatever else. He speaks to Abraham.
  • Abraham is dead and has not received his reward (Heb. 11:8, 13, 39, 40). Abraham isn't in Abraham's bosom.

It can be argued that Jesus did not call it a parable, however only 11 of his 26+ parables in Luke are actually called parables. What the story in Luke 16 is actually about is in verses 14-15 Jesus attacks the Pharisees and materialism, and this materialism is why they killed him. He tells a parable specifically directed to the Pharisees, and for them to understand. Examine the characters and the story:
  • a Rich Man (High Priest Caiphas)
  • his Father (Annas) (High priest when Jesus was a child)
  • the sons of the Father (Eleazar, Jonathan, Theophilus, Matthias, Ananus) (also high priests)
  • who all were wealthy
  • were well studied in Moses and the Prophets.
  • And his promise to these men was that though one would rise from the dead, they would not repent.

It actually happened to Annas, Caiaphas, and the sons. Lazarus rose from the dead and they all the more wanted to kill both Lazarus and Jesus. Jesus rose from the dead and they did not repent.

This parable was given to the Pharisees, not to somebody who has never heard of the God of Israel and his son. This parable isn't for the unknowing, this parable is for those well steeped in the bible. Jesus isn't describing some complete separate creation that nobody heard of prior to him telling it, he's simply telling a parable.
 

Woody50

Member
You seriously need to stop listening to your "teachers."

Just read and study the Bible. On your own.

That, you don't do.

Great talking to you.
 

Bob Dobbalina

Active member
So.... you think that the fact people get their panties all tied up in knots, and it drives them over the edge, hell isn't for real?


Do you have evidence to support this change in thinking you've developed, or is this purely a matter of emotion?
Hell is a tradition of men and a heresy that turns people from the church more than any other issue. YHWH, as taught by modern mainstream churchianity, is a capricious, depraved demon.
Life in torment is still life; the scriptures clearly define death, in the books of Job and Ecclesiastes, and promise death to those who don’t believe and embrace the Messiah.

Also, there’s no such thing as immortal, fireproof worms.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Hell is a tradition of men and a heresy that turns people from the church more than any other issue. YHWH, as taught by modern mainstream churchianity, is a capricious, depraved demon.
Life in torment is still life; the scriptures clearly define death, in the books of Job and Ecclesiastes, and promise death to those who don’t believe and embrace the Messiah.

Also, there’s no such thing as immortal, fireproof worms.
It's a pity you haven't actually paid attention to what the bible says.
Well, I suppose you'll get to find out the hard way.
fwiw, hell is actually described in the old testament.
 

Hawkeye

Active member
It's a pity you haven't actually paid attention to what the bible says.
Well, I suppose you'll get to find out the hard way.
fwiw, hell is actually described in the old testament.
Well....we know it's not described in the New Testament....but I would like to have you show me where it is in the Old scriptures. Chapter & Verse.....please?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Well....we know it's not described in the New Testament....but I would like to have you show me where it is in the Old scriptures. Chapter & Verse.....please?
Ezekiel 32, Isaiah 66:24

And it's detailed quite extensively in the new testament.
Jesus even quotes the Isaiah 66:24 passages 3 times in Mark 9.
 

Berserk

Member
It's a pity you haven't actually paid attention to what the bible says.
Well, I suppose you'll get to find out the hard way.
fwiw, hell is actually described in the old testament.
Nope! You obviously neither know Hebrew nor have read a relevant academic OT book commentary. More seriously, you have been led astray by the frequent OT mistranslation of "Sheol" as "Hell." In fact, despite the Witch of Endor story, "Sheol" is not a realm of fully conscious postmortem survival; rather, it is the postmortem abode of the righteous and unrighteous alike.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Nope! You obviously neither know Hebrew nor have read a relevant academic OT book commentary. More seriously, you have been led astray by the frequent OT mistranslation of "Sheol" as "Hell." In fact, despite the Witch of Endor story, "Sheol" is not a realm of fully conscious postmortem survival; rather, it is the postmortem abode of the righteous and unrighteous alike.
If you say so.
I won't be trusting you though, so have fun with that.
 

Berserk

Member
If you say so.
I won't be trusting you though, so have fun with that.
So let me get this straight: you mindlessly mistrust my critique as an excuse to avoid the hard work of research and critical thinking. So sad because it would be so easy for you to verify my points, starting with a concordance or thick Bible dictionary.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
So let me get this straight: you mindlessly mistrust my critique as an excuse to avoid the hard work of research and critical thinking. So sad because it would be so easy for you to verify my points, starting with a concordance or thick Bible dictionary.
I mindfully distrust your critique because I have spent 43-1/2 years doing the hard work of research, and critical thinking, which includes application, and testing of what's written.
So.... yeah, I won't be trusting your views. It's pretty clear they're based entirely on the biases of inexperience.
 

Stephen

Active member
Ezekiel 32, Isaiah 66:24

And it's detailed quite extensively in the new testament.
Jesus even quotes the Isaiah 66:24 passages 3 times in Mark 9.


I'm fascinated on your understanding of Isaiah 66:24 and how it applies to the Christian doctrine of hell. In the verse, people are able to "go out and look on the dead bodies" just as they are able to go up to the temple and worship God

24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

This isn't regarding "hell" as taught by Christianity. These are dead bodies littering the earth and are loathsome to everybody. Likewise in Mark 9 it is discussing having body parts in "hell", which is in direct contradiction to the teaching on "hell" that permeates Christianity. In Christianity it isn't the body that goes to hell.


Regarding Ezekiel 32, it is a large chapter discussing the war dead. not some descent into eternal conscious torment.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
I'm fascinated on your understanding of Isaiah 66:24 and how it applies to the Christian doctrine of hell. In the verse, people are able to "go out and look on the dead bodies" just as they are able to go up to the temple and worship God

24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

This isn't regarding "hell" as taught by Christianity. These are dead bodies littering the earth and are loathsome to everybody. Likewise in Mark 9 it is discussing having body parts in "hell", which is in direct contradiction to the teaching on "hell" that permeates Christianity. In Christianity it isn't the body that goes to hell.


Regarding Ezekiel 32, it is a large chapter discussing the war dead. not some descent into eternal conscious torment.
Ironically, I'm not the one who came up with these.
And yes, I view both the old, and new testament as a coherent collection.
I've always been taught:
The old testament is the new testament concealed.
the new testament is the old testament revealed.

As nothing that is in the new testament is not in the old, and the new testament has its basis in the old testament, I'm not really bothered with my ideas. I don't concoct them out of nothing, nor have I made up anything.

42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where​
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where​
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where​
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
49 “For everyone will be seasoned with fire, and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt. 50 Salt is good, but if the salt loses its flavor, how will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace with one another.”​

Jesus doesn't quote passages known by the people of his day for no reason either. These are colloquialisms they would've been familiar with.


18 “For I know their works and their thoughts. It shall be that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory. 19 I will set a sign among them; and those among them who escape I will send to the nations: to Tarshish and Pul and Lud, who draw the bow, and Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands afar off who have not heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they shall declare My glory among the Gentiles. 20 Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the LORD out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem,” says the LORD, “as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. 21 And I will also take some of them for priests and Levites,” says the LORD.​
22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth​
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the LORD,​
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.​
23 And it shall come to pass​
That from one New Moon to another,​
And from one Sabbath to another,​
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the LORD.​
24 “And they shall go forth and look​
Upon the corpses of the men​
Who have transgressed against Me.​
For their worm does not die,​
And their fire is not quenched.​
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”​

And the idea of littering the earth..... that doesn't fit with the concept of a fire that is not quenched, and a worm that does not die.
If it wasn't for this phrase--- I'd be more inclined to agree with you.

As for Ezekiel 32, yes, it is a large chapter. So?
Yes, war dead are described. And?

What you appear to have ignored is that there are conscious people in the abode of the dead.
 
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