The Church of Jesus Christ

dberrie2020

Well-known member
As I have pondered the thought of why the critics here would choose to attack The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--one thought is prevalent in my musings.

The NT church had the living, mortal apostles and prophets. They had heavenly visitations to numerous occasions--with witnesses. They had the priesthood. Jesus Christ Himself visited them, and continuing revelation and scripture ensued. They had the temple--present and future, etc.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also possess those same traits.

Yet--those who have little to none of that, --attack the very church which does have those things, claiming it as being false.

How is that persecution any different than what the traditional Jews leveled agaisnt the first century church of Jesus Christ?
 

The Prophet

Well-known member
As I have pondered the thought of why the critics here would choose to attack The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--one thought is prevalent in my musings.

The NT church had the living, mortal apostles and prophets. They had heavenly visitations to numerous occasions--with witnesses. They had the priesthood. Jesus Christ Himself visited them, and continuing revelation and scripture ensued. They had the temple--present and future, etc.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also possess those same traits.

Yet--those who have little to none of that, --attack the very church which does have those things, claiming it as being false.

How is that persecution any different than what the traditional Jews leveled agaisnt the first century church of Jesus Christ?
Didn't President Oaks tell us that he knew of NO heavenly visits to any of his leaders and just claiming to have Apostles and Prophets doesn't make it real, WE claim Jesus is our Prophet Hebrews 1:1-2 and Hebrews 3:1 tells us he Our Apostle
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Didn't President Oaks tell us that he knew of NO heavenly visits to any of his leaders and just claiming to have Apostles and Prophets doesn't make it real, WE claim Jesus is our Prophet Hebrews 1:1-2 and Hebrews 3:1 tells us he Our Apostle

Jesus never had a church void of heavenly visitation and revelation.

What heavenly beings are you claiming your church has received--such as this?

D&C 110
1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachitestifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
Jesus never had a church void of heavenly visitation and revelation.

What heavenly beings are you claiming your church has received--such as this?

D&C 110
1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachitestifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.
Our church received an incarnate visitation from Christ, when He was born on earth, taught us how to live and paid the ultimate price for our sins so we can have eternal life. Then He returned to show us that we’ll live again, and to give us more instructions.

He told us He is our prophet and high priest. And that we are His temple.

He gave us two commandments… love God and love each other. He told us that the way to show we love Him is to take care of each other. He said when we help those in need, we’re showing Him the same love and compassion.

He left His gospel to be shared, and caused it to be recorded and preserved so we have it to live by. He gave us each the Holy Spirit as a constant guide and comforter.

He told us to be wary of false prophets and false gospels.

We live by His words, His spirit that dwells in us and our faith in Him. Until we see Him again.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Our church received an incarnate visitation from Christ, when He was born on earth, taught us how to live and paid the ultimate price for our sins so we can have eternal life. Then He returned to show us that we’ll live again, and to give us more instructions.

Both the NT church, and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--received heavenly visitations in their own day. Your church has to look backward over 1000 years. Which means, IMO--there is no authority there.

Here is what accompanies the church of Jesus Christ:

D&C 110
1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi, testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
Both the NT church, and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--received heavenly visitations in their own day. Your church has to look backward over 1000 years. Which means, IMO--there is no authority there.

Here is what accompanies the church of Jesus Christ:

D&C 110
1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi, testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.
I think it’s unfortunate that you reject the authority of Christ.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
He told us to be wary of false prophets and false gospels.

I believe what you mean is--be wary of ANY living, mortal apostles and prophets at all. Your church has neither.

The very foundation of His church is absent there.

Present in the NT church--and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
I think it’s unfortunate that you reject the authority of Christ.

For someone with a church which is without one living, mortal apostle or prophet, one temple, one heavenly revelation accommodating their church creation--with witnesses, etc--that is quite the claim--and follows with this OP observation.

Magdalena--the LDS have all of those traits.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
I believe what you mean is--be wary of ANY living, mortal apostles and prophets at all. Your church has neither.

The very foundation of His church is absent there.

Present in the NT church--and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Do not change what I say.

False prophets, false apostles, false gospel. Christ told us how to recognize them. And that we should not follow them because they would lead us away from Him. You can’t follow them and Christ at the same time.
 

CrowCross

Super Member
As I have pondered the thought of why the critics here would choose to attack The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--one thought is prevalent in my musings.

The NT church had the living, mortal apostles and prophets. They had heavenly visitations to numerous occasions--with witnesses. They had the priesthood. Jesus Christ Himself visited them, and continuing revelation and scripture ensued. They had the temple--present and future, etc.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also possess those same traits.

Yet--those who have little to none of that, --attack the very church which does have those things, claiming it as being false.

How is that persecution any different than what the traditional Jews leveled agaisnt the first century church of Jesus Christ?
The problem is who you call Jesus...

According to LDS/Mormon theology God the Father came from Kolob which is a star or planet described in the Book of Abraham, a presumed sacred text of the Latter Day Saints. (let me know if you mormons figured it out and if it is a star or planet)
Anyway, the father then had some sort of relations (sexual?) with some sort of celestial female...mother...who had a baby who was the preincarnate Jesus. She also had other sons one of which was named Lucifer. Well, son Jesus got promoted to the Godhead...made a God...and was then born to Mary. lucifer, well, we know what happened to him.
But, Jesus ends up being a created being...and not eternal as he came into existance at his heavenly birth.

This pre-incarnate Jesus had a father, the guy from Kolob...who had a father, Jesus' grandpa who like Jesus and Jesus' father were once men like us living here on earth.

So dberrie2020...and the other mormons who post here...it becomes very simple to "attack the very church which does have those things, claiming it as being false.".....because it is.

If Paul presented your theology of the pre-incarnate jesus and past history to the Bereans...they too would have walked. You see dberrie2020...and all of you other mormons who post here....you present a fake Jesus. Now you no longer have to have pondered the thought of why the critics here would choose to attack The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints....you present a fake Jesus.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
False prophets, false apostles, false gospel. Christ told us how to recognize them. And that we should not follow them because they would lead us away from Him. You can’t follow them and Christ at the same time.

The fact is--both the NT Church and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have the living, mortal apostles and prophets--Jesus Christ being the Chief Corner Stone.

Your church hasn't any living, mortal apostles and prophets-that's my point.

That you can label them "false" isn't any different than what the traditional Jews were labeling the NT apostles and prophets--killing them alone the way.

So--what's new?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
The problem is who you call Jesus...

According to LDS/Mormon theology God the Father came from Kolob which is a star or planet described in the Book of Abraham, a presumed sacred text of the Latter Day Saints. (let me know if you mormons figured it out and if it is a star or planet)
Anyway, the father then had some sort of relations (sexual?) with some sort of celestial female...mother...who had a baby who was the preincarnate Jesus. She also had other sons one of which was named Lucifer. Well, son Jesus got promoted to the Godhead...made a God...and was then born to Mary. lucifer, well, we know what happened to him.
But, Jesus ends up being a created being...and not eternal as he came into existance at his heavenly birth.

This pre-incarnate Jesus had a father, the guy from Kolob...who had a father, Jesus' grandpa who like Jesus and Jesus' father were once men like us living here on earth.

So dberrie2020...and the other mormons who post here...it becomes very simple to "attack the very church which does have those things, claiming it as being false.".....because it is.

If Paul presented your theology of the pre-incarnate jesus and past history to the Bereans...they too would have walked. You see dberrie2020...and all of you other mormons who post here....you present a fake Jesus. Now you no longer have to have pondered the thought of why the critics here would choose to attack The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints....you present a fake Jesus.

Which substantiates the OP --IE---those who do not possess one living, mortal apostle or prophet in their church, no temple, no heavenly visitations, with witnesses, no continuing scripture, etc--point their finger and accuse those who do. Heck--they don't even name their church after Jesus Christ, for the main.

So--how is that any different than what the traditional Jews accused the NT church of?
 

CrowCross

Super Member
Which substantiates the OP --IE---those who do not possess one living, mortal apostle or prophet in their church, no temple, no heavenly visitations, with witnesses, no continuing scripture, etc--point their finger and accuse those who do. Heck--they don't even name their church after Jesus Christ, for the main.

So--how is that any different than what the traditional Jews accused the NT church of?
You didn't answer the falseness of your "heavenly" roots which call into question anything you say came from this realm. This would include your so-called prophets, heavenly visitors, Moroni and any that I missed including your false gospel.

My prediction is that your false description and what you mormons say occurred in the pre-incarnate realm will not be addressed.
 

Erundur

Active member
The problem is who you call Jesus...
Why is Jesus Christ the problem?
According to LDS/Mormon theology God the Father came from Kolob which is a star or planet described in the Book of Abraham, a presumed sacred text of the Latter Day Saints. (let me know if you mormons figured it out and if it is a star or planet)
Anyway, the father then had some sort of relations (sexual?) with some sort of celestial female...mother...who had a baby who was the preincarnate Jesus. She also had other sons one of which was named Lucifer. Well, son Jesus got promoted to the Godhead...made a God...and was then born to Mary. lucifer, well, we know what happened to him.
But, Jesus ends up being a created being...and not eternal as he came into existance at his heavenly birth.

This pre-incarnate Jesus had a father, the guy from Kolob...who had a father, Jesus' grandpa who like Jesus and Jesus' father were once men like us living here on earth.
This is according to anti-LDS/Mormon theology, so it's your problem, not ours.
....you present a fake Jesus.
As Christians, we disagree with you that Jesus Christ is fake.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
No, Jesus Christ isn't fake....just your representation of Jesus is fake.

Just as the OP maintains--only that church which has the living apostles and prophets, the temple, heavenly revelations, with witnesses, continuing revelation, etc--just as the NT church did--they are the fakes.

Churches which have none of that--they represent the true Jesus--even if they don't even name their church after the name of Jesus Christ.

Yeah, right.
 

The Prophet

Well-known member
Didn't President Oaks tell us that he knew of NO heavenly visits to any of his leaders and just claiming to have Apostles and Prophets doesn't make it real, WE claim Jesus is our Prophet Hebrews 1:1-2 and Hebrews 3:1 tells us he Our Apostle

Actual talk :)
a youth fireside in Bellvue Washington in January of 2016, Elder Oaks acknowledges that none of the top leaders of the church claim to have had a direct visitation by any heavenly being, but all obtained their testimony like "dust gathering on a windowsill"
 
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