The Church of Jesus Christ

[dberrie2020]

Jeremiah never existed until he was conceived in his mother's womb ​

Did Jesus exist before He was conceived in His mother's womb?

And if Jesus Christ, as a spirit --existed before His physical body--then what is your evidence other spirits can't do the same? There is certainly evidence there were other spirits present in heaven from the beginning.

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

Again--a quote from Exodus19:5-6--

Exodus 19:5-6---English Standard Version
5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; 6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel.”

The point being--that's the same language used in both Exodus19 and 1Peter4:9, and in Exodus--it was a specific priesthood held by a specific portion of the church.

God was making a covenant with Israel. Peter reminds us we are a royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9), those (His chosen) who serve God as both kings and priests (and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, Revelation 1:6). This in no way validates the claims of Mormonism.

I read it in your post--which is why I posted it in quotation marks:

Richard7 wrote: and we get our authority directly from the laying on of hands and then ordained to receive certain priesthood offices

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

As noted by you.."But that said, a building, a denomination, is not the body of Christ. It is where the body of Christ may gather"
Daniel saw the last days and was very explicit that God would set up His Kingdom...."in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:

What does Daniel's prophecy mean to you, a Mormon?

You said not a building or denomination, only that were the body of Christ is gathered ..... "Body of Christ"... yet you don't give a definition to who the body of Christ is that gather together.....

This link explains quite sufficiently who the body of Christ is.

How is the church the Body of Christ? | GotQuestions.org

How is the church the Body of Christ? What are the implications of the church being the Body of Christ?

www.gotquestions.org

You down play what Daniel saw, yet you can't tell us what the Kingdom of God is here on the earth, very interesting.

You brought Daniel's prophecy into this discussion, how can I have downplayed it? The Kingdom of God is where He is, as He rules over the universe and all that is in it.

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

Did Jesus exist before He was conceived in His mother's womb?And if Jesus Christ, as a spirit --existed before His physical body--then what is your evidence other spirits can't do the same? There is certainly evidence there were other spirits present in heaven from the beginning.

You are creating God in your own image by postulating "certainly...there were other spirits present in heaven...". This is a man-made theology and trying to put Him in the box certain men have created. As He has told us in the Bible:

Isaiah 55:8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. 9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Concerning your question "then what is your evidence other spirits can't do the same", I present the following Biblical Scriptures for your pleasure.

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him
1 John 4:12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.
John 5:37 And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.
1 Timothy 6:16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.
John 6:46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.

 

[dberrie2020]

God was making a covenant with Israel. Peter reminds us we are a royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9), those (His chosen) who serve God as both kings and priests (and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, Revelation 1:6). This in no way validates the claims of Mormonism.

It not only validates the claim of the LDS--it is the claim of the LDS.

Richard7 wrote: and we get our authority directly from the laying on of hands and then ordained to receive certain priesthood offices

I didn't quote it from Richard's post--I quoted it from your post:

Lastdaysbeliever said: Scripture belies the claims of Mormonism, that you are given authority and awarded a certain priesthood;

Again--the priesthood was a given authority in Exodus19:4-5--and it was a specific priesthood. 1Peter 2 is a quote from that source.

 

[dberrie2020]

You are creating God in your own image by postulating "certainly...there were other spirits present in heaven...". This is a man-made theology and trying to put Him in the box certain men have created.

I'm not sure where you are getting that from--the Biblical record is replete with references to spirits residing in heaven.

As He has told us in the Bible:

Isaiah 55:8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. 9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

I have no idea how you are relating that to spirits being in heaven.

Concerning your question "then what is your evidence other spirits can't do the same", I present the following Biblical Scriptures for your pleasure.

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him
1 John 4:12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.
John 5:37 And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.
1 Timothy 6:16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.
John 6:46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.

Again--I have no idea how you are relating that to spirits in heaven inhabiting mortal bodies. Jesus Christ is an example of that. What is your evidence other heavenly spirits don't inhabit mortal bodies?

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

I'm not sure where you are getting that from--the Biblical record is replete with references to spirits residing in heaven.



I have no idea how you are relating that to spirits being in heaven.



Again--I have no idea how you are relating that to spirits in heaven inhabiting mortal bodies. Jesus Christ is an example of that. What is your evidence other heavenly spirits don't inhabit mortal bodies?

How do you ignore the Bible that states no one has seen God but Jesus? You claim you were a spirit with God before you came here. How do you reconcile that because either the Bible is lying or you believe a lie. I go with the latter.

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

I'm not sure where you are getting that from--the Biblical record is replete with references to spirits residing in heaven.



I have no idea how you are relating that to spirits being in heaven.



Again--I have no idea how you are relating that to spirits in heaven inhabiting mortal bodies. Jesus Christ is an example of that. What is your evidence other heavenly spirits don't inhabit mortal bodies?

You are too far gone to understand Biblical truth. The scales on your eyes and hardened heart prevent you from seeing the truth. I am praying for you db.

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

It not only validates the claim of the LDS--it is the claim of the LdB.

And people still claim the earth is flat.

I didn't quote it from Richard's post--I quoted it from your post:

So? It was his words.

Again--the priesthood was a given authority in Exodus19:4-5--and it was a specific priesthood. 1Peter 2 is a quote from that source.

So?

 

[Elijah the Tishbite]

Did Jesus exist before He was conceived in His mother's womb?

And if Jesus Christ, as a spirit --existed before His physical body--then what is your evidence other spirits can't do the same? There is certainly evidence there were other spirits present in heaven from the beginning.

Jesus did exist as the Eternal God like the Book of Mormon and the Bible teach but neither book tells us we did. and yes angels as spirits in heaven did exist.

 

[dberrie2020]

How do you ignore the Bible that states no one has seen God but Jesus? You claim you were a spirit with God before you came here. How do you reconcile that because either the Bible is lying or you believe a lie. I go with the latter.

That could only pose some serious theological problems for the critics here:

Exodus 24:9-10---King James Version
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

 

[dberrie2020]

So?

So--if 1 Peter 2 was a reference to Exodus 19--then it was a "given authority" to "a certain priesthood". That can be seen for anyone who cares to read the account of the priesthood in Exodus, IE--which belies this claim:

Lastdaysbeliever said: Scripture belies the claims of Mormonism, that you are given authority and awarded a certain priesthood;

As to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints:

“Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness” (D&C 13).

That's the difference between the Church of Jesus Christ and all others. His church receives heavenly revelations, with witnesses--accompanied with the power and authority of God.

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

So--if 1 Peter 2 was a reference to Exodus 19--then it was a "given authority" to "a certain priesthood". That can be seen for anyone who cares to read the account of the priesthood in Exodus, IE--which belies this claim:

Those are Mormon claims. The Bible is clear:

God was making a covenant with Israel in Exodus. Unless you are Jewish, this verse doesn't pertain to you, or me. Peter, however, reminds us we are a royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9), those (His chosen) who serve God as both kings and priests (and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, Revelation 1:6). Present tense. Followers of the Way only. This in no way validates the claims of Mormonism.

As to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints:

“Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness” (D&C 13).

That's the difference between the Church of Jesus Christ and all others. His church receives heavenly revelations, with witnesses--accompanied with the power and authority of God.

With due respect, this is Mormon rhetoric. Perhaps it has an effect on those it is proselytizing, those ignorant of the lies that Joe Smith created in his fictional novel the BoM, and you, dberrie202, tend to try the same tactics with me that an "elder" would use to proselytize and get me to agree that Mormon teachings are the same as in the Bible (not gonna happen), but Mormon claims are NOT supported by the Bible. Your leadership can claim what you have written, and you can regurgitate it, ad infinitum as you do, but that will never change you follow a false religion, a false prophet and a false Jesus. I continue to pray you will be freed from the yoke of Mormonism db2020.

Bless you,

Ldb

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

That could only pose some serious theological problems for the critics here:

Exodus 24:9-10---King James Version
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

No, it doesn't. That Moses and his company ‘saw the God of Israel’ at first appears to contradict Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. ; John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.; and 1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.; but what they saw was a form [‘similitude’] of the LORD (Numbers 12:8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?) just as Ezekiel (Ezekiel 1:26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it) and Isaiah (Isaiah 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.) saw an approximation, a faint resemblance and a sensible adumbration of the incarnate Christ who was to come.

But then, if we take your Mormon interpretation of Exodus and compare it to the verses I quoted from the Bible, inspired by the Holy Spirit, God lied. This is the thing. You eisigete one or two verses, twist what it says to your own narrative and ignore the whole. The Bible states no one has seen God but the Son. No one. As offered above, they saw a form, as also there was a cloud during the day and a pillar of fire at night, in Exodus 24 they did not see above His footstool. His very image.

 

[Richard7]

I know who He was talking to and know why the Bible is there. No need to debate what I am already convinced of.

Your claim is not true. We who follow the Way did/do not believe or admit that the gospel of Christ needed a reformation Richard7. Scripture is clear not even the gates of hell can overcome His church (Matthew 16:18). Luther (and earlier Hus, Waldo, Wycliff) as a Rc Monk, by his 95-thesis (have you ever bothered to read his thesis?) tacked on the door of the church in Wittenberg was calling for debate with the Rcc over the abuse of plenary indulgences and the mythos of purgatory (his arguments grew from that point). This call for what has been termed a reformation, what you and every other Mormon hijack to create a false narrative of a supposed Joe Smith claim of "apostasy" of the Christian church starting in the 1st century AD, was to reform the Roman Catholic church and the errors it promulgated (indulgences). That in no way indicates that Jesus' body was not alive and well. It was, has been, is and will be until His return for His church. Contrary to what you believe. I have great compassion for you and every Mormon who believes such nonsense Richard7. It's unfortunate, whether you are a cradle to grave Mormon or a convert, that you are spiritually blind to God's truth and follow a false religion.

This is a great example of deflection, trying to inject that Peter's words are about predestination, when we were talking about the priesthood you claim that you are given authority and awarded a certain priesthood by the Mormon church but the Bible declares:

1 Peter 4:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

I thought you said there was no church, just where two or three gather....

Chosen or His Covenant People by way of Abraham and all his seed....

“... as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” (Galatians 13:27–29).

Where did I ever claim predestined by way of Peter... are you willing to say or not say you believe in Predestination?

 

[Elijah the Tishbite]

That could only pose some serious theological problems for the critics here:

Exodus 24:9-10---King James Version
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

Selections from Answers to Gospel Questions
Taken from the writings of Joseph Fielding Smith
Tenth President of Mormonism
A course Study for the Melchizedek Priesthood Quorums
1972-73

Lesson 6 page 39

It was Jesus who gave commandments to Adam after he was driven out of the Garden of Eden and who directed Enoch and Noah before the flood. It was Christ who named Abraham and made him that through his posterity all nations would be blessed. He, it was who called Moses to lead Isreal out of Egypt and who wrote with his fingers on the tables of stone. He had no body until he was born in Bethlehem.

 

[Richard7]

Selections from Answers to Gospel Questions
Taken from the writings of Joseph Fielding Smith
Tenth President of Mormonism
A course Study for the Melchizedek Priesthood Quorums
1972-73

Lesson 6 page 39

It was Jesus who gave commandments to Adam after he was driven out of the Garden of Eden and who directed Enoch and Noah before the flood. It was Christ who named Abraham and made him that through his posterity all nations would be blessed. He, it was who called Moses to lead Isreal out of Egypt and who wrote with his fingers on the tables of stone. He had no body until he was born in Bethlehem.

All the above is true, Christ did not have a body, but he was the God of the Old Testament

 

[Elijah the Tishbite]

All the above is true, Christ did not have a body, but he was the God of the Old Testament

Did Jesus have a body in Genesis 18 & 19? Richard7 ​

“at this point the men turned from there way to Sodom but as for JEHOVAH he was standing still before Abraham….then JEHOVAH went his way when he had finished speaking to Abraham.” Genesis 18:22-33 New World Translation Genesis 18:2 says three men appeared to Abraham, two are identified as angels {Genesis 19:1} ONE IS IDENTIFIED AS JEHOVAH GOD Genesis 18:1,3,13,14,17,20,22,26,27,31,32 and 33



Genesis 19: 27
Now Abraham got up early in the morning and went to the place where he had stood before Jehovah

 

[Richard7]

Did Jesus have a body in Genesis 18 & 19? Richard7 ​

“at this point the men turned from there way to Sodom but as for JEHOVAH he was standing still before Abraham….then JEHOVAH went his way when he had finished speaking to Abraham.” Genesis 18:22-33 New World Translation Genesis 18:2 says three men appeared to Abraham, two are identified as angels {Genesis 19:1} ONE IS IDENTIFIED AS JEHOVAH GOD Genesis 18:1,3,13,14,17,20,22,26,27,31,32 and 33



Genesis 19: 27
Now Abraham got up early in the morning and went to the place where he had stood before Jehovah

No different then Christ the God speaking to Moses, face to face as one man speaks to another... but he did not have a body of flesh and bone.


Book of Mormon
The Lord touched each stone with His finger. When the brother of Jared saw the Lord’s finger, he fell down with fear. (See Ether 3:6.) The Lord said, “Arise, why hast thou fallen?” (Ether 3:7). The brother of Jared answered that when he saw the Lord’s finger, he was afraid. He did not know the Lord had a body. (See Ether 3:8.) The Lord told the brother of Jared that because of his faith he had seen that the Lord would someday receive a body of flesh and blood. The Lord then asked the brother of Jared if he had seen more than His finger. The brother of Jared answered, “Nay; Lord, show thyself unto me” (Ether 3:10; see also Ether 3:9). The Lord showed Himself to the brother of Jared and explained that all men were created in the Lord’s image (see Ether 3:13–15). What the brother of Jared was seeing was the body of the Lord’s spirit. When born on earth, Jesus would receive a physical body that would look the same as His spirit. (See Ether 3:16.) The brother of Jared took the stones and placed one in each end of the barges. They gave light to the Jaredites as they traveled to the promised land. (See Ether 6:2–3.)

 

[Elijah the Tishbite]

No different then Christ the God speaking to Moses, face to face as one man speaks to another... but he did not have a body of flesh and bone.


Book of Mormon
The Lord touched each stone with His finger. When the brother of Jared saw the Lord’s finger, he fell down with fear. (See Ether 3:6.) The Lord said, “Arise, why hast thou fallen?” (Ether 3:7). The brother of Jared answered that when he saw the Lord’s finger, he was afraid. He did not know the Lord had a body. (See Ether 3:8.) The Lord told the brother of Jared that because of his faith he had seen that the Lord would someday receive a body of flesh and blood. The Lord then asked the brother of Jared if he had seen more than His finger. The brother of Jared answered, “Nay; Lord, show thyself unto me” (Ether 3:10; see also Ether 3:9). The Lord showed Himself to the brother of Jared and explained that all men were created in the Lord’s image (see Ether 3:13–15). What the brother of Jared was seeing was the body of the Lord’s spirit. When born on earth, Jesus would receive a physical body that would look the same as His spirit. (See Ether 3:16.) The brother of Jared took the stones and placed one in each end of the barges. They gave light to the Jaredites as they traveled to the promised land. (See Ether 6:2–3.)

What kind of body did Jesus have in Ether? Sounds like a Mythical one ​