The Church vs. The Individual

[Anselm01]

Basically "Theologians" specialize in the art of generating Theological CONFUSION, and in some cases religious organizations are organized around specific confusions.

To fabricate a doctrine:
1) See something in Scripture, and form an opinion about what it says.
2) Go through the Bible and collect all the passages that appear to SUPPORT your opinion. Catalog them as your "Proof Texts".
3) Go through the Bible and collect all the passages that appear to refute your opinion. Catalog them as your "Problem Texts".
4) Create viable rationalizations for your "Problem Texts", so that they are "properly understood" to not disagree with your "Proof Texts".
5) GO ahead and teach your opinion as Biblical TRUTH to whomever will listen.
6) When enough people take your opinion(s) seriously, you've got a denomination!!!!

Simple as that.

Very well put!

So, how do you avoid this conundrum?

 

[Anselm01]

Matt 23:8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers.

That was one verse earlier.... I have been a history 'teacher' for over 30 years.

James 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you realize that we will be judged more strictly,

Eph 4:11 And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers

Arch, you don't understand... Cjab has the true understanding of that one verse. All your examples do not matter to them.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Very well put!

So, how do you avoid this conundrum?

SImple. I read the Word, and allow the Holy Spirit to give me wisdom, just as He PROMISED to do.
Jas 1:5
"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

That's what the Bible recommends after all:
1Jo 2:27
"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

I'm a member in good standing of an Assembly of God local church, but I'm not defined by the "Official position"/"Theological package" of the Assemblies of God. I do find their "package" generally acceptable, however.

 

[Arch Stanton]

You may not have so claimed; however the popes do have the title of "Holy Father"!

Even a place can be called holy (consecration), that someone or something belongs to God. That is why the Bible can call many persons, places, and things holy.

In Genesis 28:16, the place God appears is “holy.” In Exodus 19:6, God tells the Israelites through Moses, “and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” God’s dwelling place in the Tabernacle is “holy” (Ex 28:43), as is the city of Jerusalem (Is 48:2). Even a goat, the victim of sacrifice to God, is called “holy” in Leviticus 10:17.

After Christ’s death and resurrection, the Christians called themselves and each other “holy ones” or “saints,” called by God to be his (Rom 1:7) “to all the beloved of God in Rome, called to be holy. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” In Peter 1:16 we read, “it is written. ‘You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

Since we are his holy people, and his people are the Church, it is fitting that the head of his holy people be called Holy Father-not because of his own merit, but because Christ died for him and for the Church that he leads on earth.

*Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother. To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints (literally: “holy ones”) who are in the whole of Achaia: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ [2 Cor 1:1-2].

 

[Anselm01]

SImple. I read the Word, and allow the Holy Spirit to give me wisdom, just as He PROMISED to do.
Jas 1:5
"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

That's what the Bible recommends after all:
1Jo 2:27
"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

I'm a member in good standing of an Assembly of God local church, but I'm not defined by the "Official position"/"Theological package" of the Assemblies of God. I do find their "package" generally acceptable, however.

Okay, but what if you disagree with them on a theological matter and cannot come to an agreement, what do you do?

 

[RiJoRi]

Since we are his holy people, and his people are the Church, it is fitting that the head of his holy people be called Holy Father-not because of his own merit, but because Christ died for him and for the Church that he leads on earth.

Robots.
First you wrote, "I have never claimed any pope was holy".
Now you say "it is fitting that [the pope] be called holy".
Just by posting the second statement you are calling the pope "holy" and thereby contradicting yourself. 🙄

 

[Arch Stanton]

First you wrote, "I have never claimed any pope was holy".

what post?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Okay, but what if you disagree with them on a theological matter and cannot come to an agreement, what do you do?

Smile and walk away. It's NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY to convince anybody of anything. That's the Holy Spirit's job. HE is the one who give wisdom.

 

[cjab]

Matt 23:8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers.

That was one verse earlier.... I have been a history 'teacher' for over 30 years.

James 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you realize that we will be judged more strictly,

Eph 4:11 And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers

Interesting. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. A Rabbi is a person qualified by academic studies of the Hebrew Bible and the Talmud to act as spiritual leader and religious teacher of a Jewish community or congregation.

I think the issue here is the nature of the system, not what you actually do. In Christian parlance I suppose what Jesus was precliding was the church becoming the preserve of academics lording it over everyone else, much like it has become today.

The danger of the church becoming the preserve of thelogians, qualified ministers and clerics / priests in RCC was manifest to Jesus, who saw the church becoming stultified by religious formalism, just like Judaism was in his day. Persons qualified in doctrine, but not by possession of the essential Spirit and by faith, are not what Christ wants. But this is the RCC model and the model of so many others, where leaders are of the correct doctrine but lack true faith.

 

[preacher4truth]

What should be the outcome when there is a conflict or disagreement between “the church” and the “individual" about what Scripture teaches? Should the individual submit to the church's interpretation of Scripture or should the church submit to the individual interpretation of Scripture? Or should the individual leave the church if no agreement can be reached?

Way too vague of a scenario to give an answer to. Perhaps you should give us an example of; 1) The church in question; 2) The individual in question; 3) The nature and specifics of the interpretations and the specific Scripture or doctrine in question.

 

[Anselm01]

Interesting. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. A Rabbi is a person qualified by academic studies of the Hebrew Bible and the Talmud to act as spiritual leader and religious teacher of a Jewish community or congregation.

I think the issue here is the nature of the system, not what you actually do. In Christian parlance I suppose what Jesus was precliding was the church becoming the preserve of academics lording it over everyone else, much like it has become today.

The danger of the church becoming the preserve of thelogians, qualified ministers and clerics / priests in RCC was manifest to Jesus, who saw the church becoming stultified by religious formalism, just like Judaism was in his day. Persons qualified in doctrine, but not by possession of the essential Spirit and by faith, are not what Christ wants. But this is the RCC model and the model of so many others, where leaders are of the correct doctrine but lack true faith.

Wow... It is amazing that Jesus agrees with your position...

 

[Anselm01]

Way too vague of a scenario to give an answer to. Perhaps you should give us an example of; 1) The church in question; 2) The individual in question; 3) The nature and specifics of the interpretations and the specific Scripture or doctrine in question.

How about Martin Luther at the Diet of Worms? Luther was an ordained clergy in the Catholic Church. Should the Church have submitted to Luther's interpretation of Scripture?

 

[preacher4truth]

How about Martin Luther at the Diet of Worms? Luther was an ordained clergy in the Catholic Church. Should the Church have submitted to Luther's interpretation of Scripture?

Yes. The apostate entity posing as the church should have repented and believed when Luther showed it the truths of the Gospel.

 

[Anselm01]

Yes. The apostate entity posing as the church should have repented and believed when Luther showed it the truths of the Gospel.

So, you would agree then that if you had a disagreement with your church, the church should repent and accept what you think Scripture teaches?

 

[cjab]

Wow... It is amazing that Jesus agrees with your position...

I presented a thesis. You have the right, liberty and duty to controvert it, as an ardent defender of the RCC. Go ahead.

 

[cjab]

Apostolic succession.

A doctrine invented by the RCC to promote itself over others. All Christians everywhere are successors of the apostles.

"We are told"...? Please provide a list and the source of that list of all apostles who were married.

1 Corinthians 9:5

Do you call your father "father" or "dad"? That verse was about humility of leaders, not that we are not to call our fathers "fathers." You are misinterpreting.

IMO it is specifically alluding to those calling or rather those demanding to be called "Father" on account of their spiritual authority. It is saying no-one had any right to be called father, even if in practice they are actually a father, because to do so would detract from God's perogatives and authorship of faith.

Yes, our interpretations are mere interpretations. And by this I mean our interpretations are binding on NO ONE.

What reason for anathemas?

The Church's dogmas are God's dogmas.

What about dogmas are created by wolves that arise from within and seek to destroy the church?

Thank you for admitting that you are the final say on what is and is not truly "biblical."

I have the final say on what I admit to be biblical. Same for you. It is the perogative given to everyone. It's called "freedom to choose." Unlike in Islamic countries where people have no freedoms, and the RCC dominated world in the past.

The evidence you provided of circumstantial.

What did you expect?

There was also debate in Rome and that was never conquered by Islam. I call anachronism.

Rome has been conquered by Islam in Spirit. It is clearly a tactic promoter of Islam. It was in large measure due to Rome that Islam became resurgent after the near destruction of Islam by the Mongols. It was in large measure due to the Trinitarian formulations espoused by Rome that Islam came to exist at all, as a kind of rebellion against Trinitarian formulations. Even now RCC recognizes Islam as an alternative way to heaven: "

Catholics and Muslims are both "descendants of the same father, Abraham," Pope Francis said, and the trip was another step on a journey of "dialogue and encounter with (our) Muslim brothers and sisters."

Pope Francis: Don’t be afraid that God has allowed different religions in the world

"What God wants is fraternity among us."

www.americamagazine.org

In saying that he admitted muslims are of the true faith. Whereas Christ called those who didn't believe in him followers of satan.

There is allegorical language in the bible. John 6 is not one of those times.

Sounds like an arbitary decision made to empower the priesthood, as in no wise did the bread that Jesus broke resemble his body in any sense.

I am not accusing you of anything. You are the final authority in all things "biblical," so you have the final say.

It is everyone's duty to preserve themselves against false doctrines. It is the perogative given to everyone. Everyone has a brain to be used for God's glory. Are you denying me the use of it?

Jesus promised there would be wheat and tares.

Only in respect of those concealed. Neither he nor the apostles commanded that the unconcealed tares be tolerated, which is what RCC does.

tare: (in biblical use) an injurious weed "resembling corn when young."

But this understanding comes through interpretation. You are asking me to accept your understanding over that of the Church. But you are a man, so by your own standard, I cannot accept it. Sorry.

I said "Christ alone is the object of faith"
John 14:6 "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.'"

Nothing about the RCC in this instruction, which also opposes Pope Francis' views on Islam being a valid religion.

 

[Anselm01]

Interesting. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. A Rabbi is a person qualified by academic studies of the Hebrew Bible and the Talmud to act as spiritual leader and religious teacher of a Jewish community or congregation.

I think the issue here is the nature of the system, not what you actually do. In Christian parlance I suppose what Jesus was precliding was the church becoming the preserve of academics lording it over everyone else, much like it has become today.

The danger of the church becoming the preserve of thelogians, qualified ministers and clerics / priests in RCC was manifest to Jesus, who saw the church becoming stultified by religious formalism, just like Judaism was in his day. Persons qualified in doctrine, but not by possession of the essential Spirit and by faith, are not what Christ wants. But this is the RCC model and the model of so many others, where leaders are of the correct doctrine but lack true faith.

Okay, do you think Matt 23 is specifically foreshadowing the Catholic Church?

 

[Arch Stanton]

Interesting. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

You are welcome

A Rabbi is a person qualified by academic studies of the Hebrew Bible and the Talmud to act as spiritual leader and religious teacher of a Jewish community or congregation.

I think the issue here is the nature of the system, not what you actually do. In Christian parlance I suppose what Jesus was precliding was the church becoming the preserve of academics lording it over everyone else, much like it has become today.

or we could just look at scripture....

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the RULE OVER YOU, and SUBMIT yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Lk 10:16 Whoever listens to you listens to ME. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.

 

[Arch Stanton]

A doctrine invented by the RCC to promote itself over others. All Christians everywhere are successors of the apostles.

2 Tim 2:2 And what you heard from me through many witnesses ENTRUST to faithful people who will have the ability to TEACH OTHERS as well.

1 Tim 5:22 Do not LAY HANDS too readily on anyone, and do not share in another’s sins. Keep yourself pure.

1 Tim 4:14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was CONFERRED on you through the prophetic word with the IMPOSITION OF HANDS of the PRESBYTERATE.

2 Tim 1:6 For this reason, I remind you to stir into flame the gift of God that you have THROUGH THE IMPOSITION OF MY HANDS.

 

[cjab]

2 Tim 2:2 And what you heard from me through many witnesses ENTRUST to faithful people who will have the ability to TEACH OTHERS as well.

1 Tim 5:22 Do not LAY HANDS too readily on anyone, and do not share in another’s sins. Keep yourself pure.

1 Tim 4:14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was CONFERRED on you through the prophetic word with the IMPOSITION OF HANDS of the PRESBYTERATE.

2 Tim 1:6 For this reason, I remind you to stir into flame the gift of God that you have THROUGH THE IMPOSITION OF MY HANDS.

How does this address the issue I raised about RCC supremacy? Was Timothy a member of the RCC?