The Church vs. The Individual

[Arch Stanton]

No effort to refute, just more proof that your premise in your first statement is false.

You mean like your attempt? "All the evidence says it is not."

 

[cjab]

and it is 'The true Church'

There is only one church, which isn't politically denominated but spiritually so.

I had a friend who was shot by a protestant...

Not as bad as having your house burnt down (as long as only a flesh wound).

1Jn 2:19

I like the verse but it is inapposite for a church to preach it where it is legalistically formulated according to tenets that aren't found in any of John's writings.

The true faith comes to us through the laying on of hands.

We don't know if the hands of the apostles were laid on Simon Magus, but if they were it still wouldn't have had a good outcome (Acts 8:9->).

 

[Arch Stanton]

There is only one church,

Yes, the universal Catholic Church.... was there another one at the time?

I like the verse but it is inapposite for a church to preach it where it is legalistically formulated according to tenets that aren't found in any of John's writings.

Being that John was Catholic ....

We don't know if the hands of the apostles were laid on Simon Magus, but if they were it still wouldn't have had a good outcome (Acts 8:9->).

We do know that the Apostles laid hands on Ignatius, Polycarp, and Clement. Were they not Bishops in the Catholic Church?

 

[cjab]

Yes, the universal Catholic Church.... was there another one at the time?

Being that John was Catholic ....

Not the RCC sort. No mention of "God the Son" (he only speaks of Son of God) or of any priests or transubstantiation in his writings.

We do know that the Apostles laid hands on Ignatius, Polycarp, and Clement. Were they not Bishops in the Catholic Church?

Indeed,. They were bishops free of any taint of reliance on human philosophy, and yet increasingly given over to credulity cf. The reference to the "phoenix" in Clement's letter, a product of pagan mythology.

The phoenix is a long-lived, immortal bird associated with Greek mythology (with analogs in many cultures) that cyclically regenerates or is otherwise born again.

Unfortunately it seems by his credulous reference to the phoenix that Clement was unwittingly prophesying that the Greek pagan philosophy that had been supervened by the gospel (Act 17:22-32) would be resurrected and brought back to life by the credulous Roman Catholic church.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Not the RCC sort.

Have you traced the early church back to another one?

Indeed,. They were bishops free of any taint of reliance on human philosophy,

Were they Catholic? Methodist? Baptist? etc.

 

[Anselm01]

Illogical nonsense and strawman of your making.

16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

It would be like me trying to convince you that you think your church is the Holy Spirit.
Also the fact that you think I believe that scripture is my tradition and not revealed by the Spirit of God, shows you lack Spiritual discernment, just as I thought.

But your interpretation of Scripture is your tradition. Or we could use the work "opinion." Either way, it has no bearing on what the Bible truly says.

Please. Why do you stay flawed, and become even worse if the opposite should happen.
The indwelling HS leads you on a path of sanctification and not total depravity and debauchery. Being a flawed christian, means you repent of sin and turn away from it.

You are defending sin against God and your neighbor, just because you are trying to defend devils who were the so called representatives of Christ on earth.

You should open your eyes.

Do you sin? If so, does this mean God cannot use you? If perfection was the requirement to serve God, God would have no servants.

No

It has everything to do with holiness: (1Cor 5)
5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. 2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

You think the immorality of the Borgia Pope among others qualified him/them to be seen as Christ on earth, when Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit says to remove them from among the Body of Christ.

You should start seeing the truth staring you in the face instead of trying to justify sin against God.

I never justified sin. I pointed out that we all sin and God still uses us.

I do not need to interpret scripture. That is your made up nonsense.
The Holy Spirit reveals scripture to the church. It is not about me, no matter how hard you try and make it so.

(Eph 1)
15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

It is clear that you desire a relationship with your so called church and that you have no personal relationship with Jesus as you depend on secondhand stories and not revelation received by the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Regardless of if you "need to interpret scripture," you are doing it right now. Whenever you quote the Bible and offer your opinion on what it says, you are interpreting Scripture. Sorry, you cannot escape this fact. You cannot also elevate your mere opinion to that of Truth just by misinterpreting the Bible.

What do you mean? Do you mean that secondhand stories are revealed to you as truth? How can you verify it?
13 thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.

Do you think your traditions of Marian prayer and adoration and making her equal to Christ does not make void the the word of God...

There is a spirit of stupor clouding your mind.

What secondhand stories are you referring to? I trust the Church because it is a valid authority established by Christ. And, Mary is not equal to Christ. That is a false statement. We honor Mary as our mother because that is what Christ did.

There is a verse that explicitly states that tradition handed down makes void the word of God, thereby condemning your tradition that is held in higher regard to the scriptures.

Please provide this verse. Here is a verse for you to consider regarding tradition.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

​

 

[Manfred]

You mean like your attempt? "All the evidence says it is not."

At least I showed in this thread how Paul said not to even associate with people like your Borgia Pope and to put them out of the church.

You find that boring because you don't believe scripture. You would rather believe that such a devil represented Christ on earth, when his actions were wholly opposed to the teachings of Christ.

It is absurd of you and a justification of sin and debauchery.

But as they say, ignorance is bliss.

Gal 5
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do[e] such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

You think the representative of Christ could live like this and still inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Manfred]

But your interpretation of Scripture is your tradition. Or we could use the work "opinion." Either way, it has no bearing on what the Bible truly says.

So you just ignore scripture because you don't want to believe what Jesus said, nor what Paul wrote.
Ignorance is truly bliss.

How many verses have your magisterium interpreted?

Your logic is seriously flawed, but that is typical of cults, they have to throw logic out in favor of their false teachings.

I told you, I do not interpret scripture. That would be YOU trying to convince yourself that my tradition is to interpret scripture.

It also shows that you are NOT indwelt by the Holy Spirit, because you are unable to receive Spiritual revelation. Without Spiritual revelation you are unable to understand Spiritual truths, it is folly to you.

You are to be pitied, as your relationship is not with God through the indwelling Spirit, but rather through men and their church that are devoid of the Spirit of God, just like the actions of yours Popes prove.

Do you sin? If so, does this mean God cannot use you? If perfection was the requirement to serve God, God would have no servants.

My sin does not increase. Your argument is with God whom you seem to believe approves of and uses those who are not redeemed and whose terrible sin brings no one to Christ.

You are living a delusion and you are against scripture:

Rom 6
6 What shall we say then? Are we to remain in sin so that grace may increase? 2 Absolutely not! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may live a new life.

I never justified sin. I pointed out that we all sin and God still uses us.

Nonsense. If sin is not decreasing then God is NOT using you.
You are even now still justifying your sin. Does your sin also still increase?

Regardless of if you "need to interpret scripture," you are doing it right now. Whenever you quote the Bible and offer your opinion on what it says, you are interpreting Scripture. Sorry, you cannot escape this fact. You cannot also elevate your mere opinion to that of Truth just by misinterpreting the Bible.

No. Why do you keep trying to sell this nonsense of "interpret scripture"
You have made that up. It is a false premise you keep trying to sell without proof.

Why do you think Christ sent the Helper, the Holy Spirit? Just because you are devoid of the leading of the Holy Spirit and prefer to be lead by men who are without the Holy Spirit, does not detract from the revelation received from the Spirit.

I gave you scripture, but you are unable to discern Spiritual truth because it is folly to you and you have to use your natural mind to interpret it the way it suits your natural mind.

God is not a powerless entity that have left us to the devices of depraved men like your Borgia pope and others worse than even him.

What secondhand stories are you referring to? I trust the Church because it is a valid authority established by Christ. And, Mary is not equal to Christ. That is a false statement. We honor Mary as our mother because that is what Christ did.

You still think your Church has Christ... Your church and it's history that you are so proud of, tell a completely different story.

Please provide this verse. Here is a verse for you to consider regarding tradition.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

I already gave you a verse. I know it is difficult for you to understand because you have to try and interpret it, but you don't know if your interpretation is correct. Go back one post and see for yourself what Jesus says about your tradition that

The fact that you did not even recognize that I quoted scripture and Jesus speaks volumes.
What do you mean? Do you mean that secondhand stories are revealed to you as truth? How can you verify it?
13 thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.

Do you think your traditions of Marian prayer and adoration and making her equal to Christ does not make void the the word of God...

There is a spirit of stupor clouding your mind.

 

[cjab]

Have you traced the early church back to another one?

The church at Jerusalem, and also those in Judea and Samaria, Antioch, Greece and Asia Minor and Ethiopia likely all preceeded the formation of the Roman church. I haven't researched the issue however.

Were they Catholic? Methodist? Baptist? etc.

(adj. καθολικός, universal), Greek term that as noun designated in the 6th C. the archbishop of Persia (Kosmas Indikopleustes)

The first use of καθολικός relating to church was by Ignatius of Antioch in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans (circa 110 AD), long before he reached Rome.

 

[Anselm01]

At least I showed in this thread how Paul said not to even associate with people like your Borgia Pope and to put them out of the church.

You find that boring because you don't believe scripture. You would rather believe that such a devil represented Christ on earth, when his actions were wholly opposed to the teachings of Christ.

It is absurd of you and a justification of sin and debauchery.

But as they say, ignorance is bliss.

Gal 5
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do[e] such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

You think the representative of Christ could live like this and still inherit the kingdom of God.

As a Protestant, you should be careful throwing that verse around. Your movement has dissensions and divisions as foundational principles.

 

[Arch Stanton]

You find that boring because you don't believe scripture.

I do, that is why I am Catholic

It is absurd of you and a justification of sin and debauchery.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the RULE OVER YOU, and SUBMIT yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

But as they say, ignorance is bliss.

and yet there is still hope for you to accept Christ and His Church

 

[Arch Stanton]

The church at Jerusalem, and also those in Judea and Samaria, Antioch, Greece and Asia Minor and Ethiopia likely all preceeded the formation of the Roman church. I haven't researched the issue however.

I think the confusion lies in 'location'. The seat could just as easily have been Antioch while Peter was there. It is not the location, it is where the keys of authority reside.

The first use of καθολικός relating to church was by Ignatius of Antioch in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans (circa 110 AD), long before he reached Rome.

What I find interesting in that letter is the term [Catholic] being used in a way that those receiving it, would already understand.... shows me that it wasn't something new.

 

[cjab]

I think the confusion lies in 'location'. The seat could just as easily have been Antioch while Peter was there. It is not the location, it is where the keys of authority reside.

There is nothing from Christ that said the keys would ever reside in one place.

 

[Arch Stanton]

There is nothing from Christ that said the keys would ever reside in one place.

Exactly my point... it is not the location, but the seat or chair of Peter -- and that ended up in Rome.

 

[cjab]

Exactly my point... it is not the location, but the seat or chair of Peter -- and that ended up in Rome.

Peter was Peter. Nothing in the bible about any chair of Peter.

So if Peter had organized and led a house church on a boat, and then been shipwrecked, they would have ended up at the bottom of the ocean?

 

[Theo1689]

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the RULE OVER YOU, and SUBMIT yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Where does that say we have to submit to a man in a dress who lives in his own created country in Italy?

 

[Theo1689]

(adj. καθολικός, universal), Greek term that as noun designated in the 6th C. the archbishop of Persia (Kosmas Indikopleustes)

The first use of καθολικός relating to church was by Ignatius of Antioch in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans (circa 110 AD), long before he reached Rome.

It's amusing to me that the term, "Roman Catholic" is hopelessly oxymoronic, and they don't even seem to realize it...

 

[cjab]

It's amusing to me that the term, "Roman Catholic" is hopelessly oxymoronic, and they don't even seem to realize it...

Although in fact it may well have been protestants who first called the church of Rome by that name (have to look it up).

 

[Arch Stanton]

Peter was Peter.

Indeed! the receiver of the keys

Nothing in the bible about any chair of Peter.

As the 'Chamberlain/Steward' what would you call it?

So if Peter had organized and led a house church on a boat, and then been shipwrecked,

....Robert Louis Stevenson would have competition

they would have ended up at the bottom of the ocean?

Good thing the Holy Spirit 'guides' the Church.... even the early Christians prayed day and night for Pierre

Acts 12:5 Peter thus was being kept in prison, but PRAYER BY THE CHURCH was fervently being made to God on his behalf.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Where does that say we have to submit to a man

You don't have to ... free will to accept the truth or not