Arch Stanton
Well-known member
You made an error in your post, so I gave you a nugget in Jude.
The Church vs. The Individual
- Thread starter Anselm01
- Start date
Mt 16 was limited to the situation prior to Christ's death and crucifixion. Subsequently all the other apostles believed except Judas. Peter was only representative of the apostles. If he was primus inter pares, he was limited to that. All apostles had the same authority as Peter (see Paul's rebuke of Peter's hypocrisy). You're fostering gnosticism.
What are you talking about? This is New Testament, not Old.
Yes, I was thinking of them. Nothing there. The Letter "of Clement" never mentions John. Although traditionally attributed to Clement of Rome, the letter is anonymous. Some have even speculated it was written by John, who sojourned at Rome according to Tertullian.
The mediation of Rome was doubtless at the request of the disputing parties and linked to familarity of persons known to both Corinth and Rome.
Smoke and Mirrors.
And you assert an exclusive right to rule the world on account of such? Ridiculous. Don't you think there would have been an express command from God? In any case, everyone knows that it was Rome itself who usurped the authority over all other churches, centuries after the times of the New Testament.
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Manfred
Well-known member
My movement?
Strange how you think I belong to a man made movement.
What you seem to lack knowledge of is that it is not men who build a church or start a movement.
Jesus Christ is the cornerstone, not Peter
You have built your Church on the wrong rock, and Christ the cornerstone is the stumbling block over which you keep stumbling.
He is building His church and His church is comprised of every born again believer across the world.
Your adoration of Mary and placing her above the Son in status by equating her to Christ as sinless and co-mediatrix etc, point to you building on the teachings of men, and not on Christ.
Manfred
Well-known member
But your tradition takes president over scripture, that is why you adore Mary so much and pretend you don't worship her, you "merely" adore her above all, even Christ.
How many times a day do you pray and have a one sided conversation with her?
And? You think I do not believe all of say Ephesians 4?
You think it teaches that we should not have a personal relationship with our Lord and Savior, but have a secondhand relationship through men who are not Godly like the Borgia Pope?
Yeah right, you believe that you should submit yourself to a devil like the Borgia Pope.
It just shows how absurd your comment below is.
You submit to the evil that has been exposed in and through the leadership of your cult and then pretend it is Christ's church.... How absurd.
Manfred
Well-known member
Again, why are you being dishonest?
Why do you insist I interpret scripture when I state God reveals scripture through the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Your fight is with God and His scripture and then you try and make it about me. You are being dishonest and you should stop.
Your false witness against me is that I interpret scripture and I can only assume you think men have to interpret scripture in the natural as there is no Spiritual revelation as to the truth of scripture.
So you balk and run away when I show you the only people trying and failing to interpret scripture in the natural is your Magisterium.
Nonsense
9 But, as it is written,
What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
Your utter disdain for God and how He interacts with his children through His word is mind boggling.
You really do hate spiritual revelation of the word of God and claim there is no such thing, only interpretation.
To me this is a clear sign that you do not have the indwelling Spirit, and that you are unable to discern Spiritual truths.
You prove that both you and your church by default are not of God but of the flesh.
Your popes and their vile actions also prove that they were of the flesh.
Your claim to being the the church of Christ is debunked by your own testimony.
There is what?
Your testimony is that you can only interpret scripture.
You also want to paint me into the same corner you are in, which is being dishonest.
My testimony which you insist on ignoring is that the truth in Scripture is revealed by the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Therefore, by your own testimony you are saying you are devoid of the Holy Spirit, because you can only interpret scripture and give your opinion.
The fact that I cannot agree with you is because we do not have the same Spirit indwelling us, you are correct. It is however not up to interpretation to see whom has a spirit that denies the revelation of scripture and renders it to mere opinion, and who has the Spirit that says, the helper has come, and indwells the child of God and He reveals the Spiritual truths in scripture to the child of God.
So give me a better reason than, I do not agree, therefore you do not have the Spirit. Surely you are mature enough to that, or perhaps not...
How do I know?
For goodness sake, don't take my word. Speak to the people who interact with me and who knew me before Christ saved me.
Are you a child, for you reason like a child.
I do not need you to believe me, God is my witness
Your argument is that God put a devil in Christ's place as His representative.
How far will you carry on with belittling God like this? How on earth could you compare Jesus Christ and the Borgia Pope and hope that you can convince others that God actually used the Borgia Pope to represent Jesus Christ.
It is becoming disgusting when I think of how you are trying harder and harder to justify sin.
No, you are saying God uses sin, not me.
Do you think the Borgia Pope who remained in sin was reconciled? Your Church trough it's endorsement of the sin of the Popes misrepresent Christ and the Scriptures.
Of course you are implying that the Borgia Pope and his sin was used to represent Christ on earth. And you keep saying God uses that. Why would God want to represent His church as being vile?
You seriously lack understanding, or you are just being dishonest.
I will say it again: The Spirit of God who indwells believers reveal the Spiritual truths in scripture to them. He does not tell them to just interpret it the way they want.
So stop lying about me interpreting scripture.
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world? 23 Jesus answered him, If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.
25 These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
You truly hate the Scriptures don't you...
Do you think this talks to individuals, or to the leaders of a church only?
20 I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent m
How can you say the same to me?
I say I do not interpret the scriptures using my natural mind. I say I receive Spiritual revelation. You claim you don't need revelation for you can only interpret.
It then becomes obvious to everyone that you are devoid of the Spirit, while I claim that I testify that I am indwelt by the Spirit.
So make your argument to prove it the other way around. Your say-so just does not cut it.
Was that what I argued?
Not at all.
12 I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. (John 16)
God did make sure that He used the correct men to inspire when He commissioned the New Testament, and that He used the correct men to compile the cannon.
11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. (Eph 4)
And? You think that one statement of Paul now trumps Jesus when He said you use tradition to void the word of God?
Are you a child that you debate like a child?
Before the NT was compiled when Paul went and preached, your mind somehow tells you that He preached a different message to the one he wrote down?
How absurd! Just because He preached and did not leave a letter behind, does not mean the oral message differed from the written message. Why would you presume it does, and why would you presume that the tradition he spoke of was in any way different to what he wrote, and that it would make void the word of God like your tradition does?
Manfred
Well-known member
And you think the spoken word (tradition) and the letters Paul wrote were two different things. How truly childish.
Why then does your church make her equal? Your tradition says she is mediatrix, queen of heaven, that Jesus has to listen to her before he can act, that she is without sin etc. etc.
How is that NOT equating equality with Christ to her, or even superiority to Christ.
You try and justify your traditions that make void the word of God and do it with arrogance. You should be ashamed.
Because I believe the scriptures are Spiritually revealed my mind is clouded?
You are the one claiming you can only interpret scripture therefore you are the one with the clouded mind.
You should at least try to prove it instead of just saying it is so... Now what?
Arch Stanton
Well-known member
You got all of the above from Mt 16?
WOW!Correct, and I did say 'clearer picture'... the Chamberlain never went away especially since those are Christ's own words...."I will give YOU THE KEYS to the kingdom of heaven.
That was not my point....but let's dissect a few things. John was still alive, the language in Corinth was Greek, and Rome was Latin. It is interesting to note that Clement's authority was accepted, as the Corinthians preserved this letter and read it frequently on Sundays.
“The apostles preached the gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ, therefore, is from God, and the apostles are from Christ… as they (the apostles) preached, therefore, in the countryside and in the cities, they appointed their first fruits – and having tested them through the Spirit – to be bishops and deacons of the future believers.” ....
“If some shall disobey the words which have been spoken by Him (Christ) through us (Clement) let them know that they will involve themselves in no small transgression and danger.”
I don't, Christ established His One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church... you should take that up with HIM.
Arch Stanton
Well-known member
How can we have any dialogue when you make things up? ^
as Manfred says 'how absurd'
Yes, you are not part of the Church established by Christ, so you part of a sectarian movement.
Why is that strange?
What does Peter/Cephus mean?
What does Peter/Cephus mean?
That is a false statement. We do not place Mary above Christ. Please stop bearing false witness.
I do not worship Mary. Again with the false statements..
I ask Mary (and the saints) to pray for me as I ask my fellow Christians to pray for me. Do you not ask others to pray for you for anything?
You keep referring to the Borgias. I do not think they were good, but I also think God preserved His Church despite our faithfulness. (2 Timothy 2:13)
There you go again with the Borgias...
The Church is full of sinners. I trust in God's faithfulness and for Him to keep his promises.
Matt 16:18
Duet. 31:6
Hebrews 13:5
2 Thesss. 3:3
1 John 1:9
Could you be wrong? If not, why not? And does this mean anyone who disagrees with you disagrees with God? You see, if you punt to the Holy Spirit you can claim to teach many errant things and there is no way for you to be corrected. Through the Holy Sprit you have the truth and anyone who disagrees with you disagrees with God. You are uncorrectable.
See above.
Again, uncorrectable.
Uncorrectable. Understood.
Translation: if you do not agree with me you do not have the Holy Spirit.
Which pope? There have been many good ones.
How is it dishonest to say you interpret Scripture? This is a very odd stance. Ever heard of the word hermeneutics?
And is therefore uncorrectable. I understand what you are saying.
And you can only interpret Scripture and give your opinion.
Here:
https://www.britannica.com/topic/hermeneutics-principles-of-biblical-interpretation
Translation: if you do not agree with me you do not have the Holy Spirit.
This all you are giving me to work with, sorry...
Then why are you on this forum? And how in the world am I supposed to get a testimony from someone over the internet. And if I could, why should I trust them any more than you?
No. That is false. That was never my argument. You need to repent of that accusation.
This is an ad hominem. It is like asking a married man: when did you stop beating your wife?
The Church never endorses sin. Period.
Ever heard of King David? He had a man killed in order to get his wife, but God somehow used him. Next.
I get it, you are uncorrectable.
This promise was made to the Church.
No, I love Scripture. That is why I am here to confront people who abuse it.
This was Christ pray that His Church be one. Protestants have made this almost impossible to become a reality.
I never said any such thing about interpretation. I claim everyone interprets. Those in the Church also have the added benefit of the Holy Spirit to help guide their reading.
To claim something does not make it true. You can "claim" all day long and still be wrong.
But your "say-so" does? Funny.
Again, a promise made to His Church.
Have you ever studied how the canon was developed? Be careful, you are complimenting members of the Catholic Church here... I also note you totally sidestepped my comment about mass illiteracy. I am not surprised.
I do not think he wrote and preached different things, no.
I never claimed he did... I just claimed there were two forms: spoken and written.
No.
She was without sin because she is the Theotokos. Mary is in NO WAY superior to Christ. How many times do we need to correct you on this. Oh, wait... you are beyond correction. My bad.
Nothing the Catholic Church actually teaches makes void the word of God. Another false statement that I would try to correct, but you know... correction does not apply to you.
I really wish your Protestant brothers and sisters would step in and correct you here. They would say that they interpret the Bible correctly. They would not deny interpretation is involved. This is basic stuff, really.
I honestly have no place to go with you. If you are beyond correction all discussions are your monologs.
So Peter got given the keys. But Paul alleged that many would claim the keys who were not entitled to them.You got all of the above from Mt 16?
Correct, and I did say 'clearer picture'... the Chamberlain never went away especially since those are Christ's own words...."I will give YOU THE KEYS to the kingdom of heaven.
Acts 20:29.
How do we know whether your keys are true or counterfeit? 2Ti 3:8, 2Th 2:9.
Also since the RCC has acknowledged muslims as "brothers" then what's the point of having them anyway?
And who is "us?" As I said, the only way this could have arisen was by an application to Rome for arbitration. Language differences were irrelevant as educated people were multi-lingual. No authority over John is implied. If you submit a dispute for arbitration, it is incumbent on you to accept the outcome.
Jhn 18:36 "Jesus said, 'My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.'"I don't, Christ established His One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church... you should take that up with HIM.
Manfred
Well-known member
Making things up?How can we have any dialogue when you make things up? ^
as Manfred says 'how absurd'
You don't adore Mary and have one way conversations with her? Or does she talk back?
You don't think she is equal to Jesus in that she was without sin?
You don't believe she is co- mediatrix thereby equal to Jesus....?
You are so transparent, yet so blinded, you cannot even see.
How many prayers have you said to Mary and how many times have you prayed to Jesus directly... I can only go with what I myself have experienced in your so called church and praying to Jesus without asking Mary to convey messages to Him is not the thing you do.
Manfred
Well-known member
Because it is Spiritual (Not man made, but in and through Christ) and not physical (Through men)
You think that little rock means Peter is the cornerstone?
Psa 118:22 The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone.
4 As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, 5 you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For it stands in Scripture:
Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone,
a cornerstone chosen and precious,
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.
7 So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,
The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,
8 and A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense.
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
Why do you and your church reject Jesus as the cornerstone, and try and place Cephas into that role?
The Apostles made up the rest of the foundation, and all who are added to the church make up the the building stones.
4 As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, 5 you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
I have shown you how you do. You also place Peter above Christ in that you believe he is the little rock your church is built on.
Manfred
Well-known member
You don't?
How many times in the last couple of months did you have a one way conversation with her whilst on your knees....
You only like to pretend you do not love and adore her to a point where your focus becomes solely her...
People that I can have a conversation with.
Dead people are not omniscient nor omnipresent, no matter how hard you want to push that agenda. You think your beloved is better than Christ because she can hear millions of RCC members chanting her name and she is so powerful she can relay it all to her son...
How absurd...
Of course God preserves His church. The problem you can't seem to deal with is that the Borgia's prove your church is not the church God is preserving.
2 Tim 2:
21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.
Yes, and there you go again justifying their sin.
Are you not redeemed? You still label yourself an unredeemed sinner....
No wonder you approve of sin.
Manfred
Well-known member
What a sad attempt to justify your error.
Do you not believe that the Spiritual is spiritually discerned and not discerned in the natural?
Do you not believe that you have to be born again to become part of the Kingdom of God and to have your mind opened by God.
You are in serious denial, and think I need correction...
Your premise that flesh and blood reveals to you that Jesus is the Christ is 100% opposed to scripture and to what Jesus said.
You want to insist that you can only interpret scripture, which I agree is correct in your case.
My insistence is that I do not interpret scripture, but that God reveals the spiritual truths within scripture to me and those who are born again.
No. I am saying that if you are only able to interpret scripture or lean on the interpretation of other men then you do not have the indwelling HS that reveals the Spiritual truths within scripture.
The natural man cannot understand the Spiritual, for it is folly to him.
You don't have to agree with me, that is your prerogative.
Yes I have.
Here, apply some hermeneutic to these scriptures and tell me what you understand it to mean:
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
5 that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
Does your hermaneutic tell you that you can interpret scripture with scripture in the natural?
Your insistence that I interpret scripture remains debunked.
What do you mean? Can you correct the Holy Spirit?
Are you so blinded that you think God reveals untruths to those He indwells? Why do you want to try and correct the HS?
Why can you NOT agree that your own interpretation of scripture without revelation from God can be corrected by God through His perfect revelation?
What is keeping you from accepting that? Surely it is not me.....
This is getting boring and ridiculous.
I have made my point well enough.
You can carry on putting your trust in your own abilities and those of other men.
I will trust in God and I will stand on His revelation.
You think the Borgia Pope was Holy....
It shows you how much you lack revelation of what it means to be holy...
You think this means holy:
9 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
You also think "will not inherit the kingdom of God" actually means "God uses sinful men like the Borgia Pope, therefore despite his continuous unrepentant sins listed here he WILL INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD" I don't care that it says will not!
He among others of your so-called successors were devils, and were most certainly not representing Christ who lived a perfectly sinless life. To even call him and others the representative of Christ is blasphemy.
Is your argument therefore NOT that the Borgia pope represented Jesus Christ?
Is your argument not that he was at one point your most holy Father?
And yet you are the one that stands un-correctable despite all the logic and scriptural support given. Like a child who blocks his ears and goes nuhuh.....
Logic 101
By endorsing the Borgia Pope as your most holy Father and the representative of Jesus Christ on earth, you are endorsing his unrepentant lifestyle and sin as being that of a most holy man who is representing Christ on earth.
You think this is just say so....
9 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Manfred
Well-known member
I am just replying to this for now.
You do understand that the church being built by Jesus is comprised of men and women who have the indwelling HS and that it is not a building or a business run by a few elite men?
When you say something as meaningless as "this scripture was meant for the church", do you actually imply it was not meant for the individual who makes up the church?
Why these silly games? Is this really the best you are capable of?
You want to deny Spiritual revelation trumps interpretation, then at least man up and say that your natural interpretation trumps the truth revealed by he HS that indwells believers.
It will give you some credibility to state that you believe the Holy Spirit does not reveal Spiritual truths to those He indwells, they are left with mere interpretation. Skirting around the issue is just silly game playing.
Arch Stanton
Well-known member
Yes, by Our Savior!
Yes, they would 'distort the truth' so it would be imperative to select men filled with the faith [Acts 6, 1 Tim5, 2 Tim1, Acts 14]. The Church was aware of false faiths [1Jn2:19].
The Church established in Rome by Peter and Paul.
They didn't go to John to clear up the situation.... Rome got involved even though they were a 'distant Church'.
We agree!.... His Kingdom is not of this world. Christ established a Church [guided by the Holy Spirit] to get us to the ultimate destination!
What is a river without banks?
What is a train without tracks?