Arch Stanton
Well-known member
You made an error in your post, so I gave you a nugget in Jude.If all you want to do is play games
You made an error in your post, so I gave you a nugget in Jude.If all you want to do is play games
Mt 16 was limited to the situation prior to Christ's death and crucifixion. Subsequently all the other apostles believed except Judas. Peter was only representative of the apostles. If he was primus inter pares, he was limited to that. All apostles had the same authority as Peter (see Paul's rebuke of Peter's hypocrisy). You're fostering gnosticism.Indeed there is.... Mt 16
read Isaiah 22 for a clearer picture
Nothing to suggest they were..... think of Joseph, Eliakim, Mordecai
Yes, I was thinking of them. Nothing there. The Letter "of Clement" never mentions John. Although traditionally attributed to Clement of Rome, the letter is anonymous. Some have even speculated it was written by John, who sojourned at Rome according to Tertullian.Yes indeed.... look at John and Clement
My movement?As a Protestant, you should be careful throwing that verse around. Your movement has dissensions and divisions as foundational principles.
But your tradition takes president over scripture, that is why you adore Mary so much and pretend you don't worship her, you "merely" adore her above all, even Christ.I do, that is why I am Catholic
And? You think I do not believe all of say Ephesians 4?Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the RULE OVER YOU, and SUBMIT yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
and yet there is still hope for you to accept Christ and His Church
Again, why are you being dishonest?No, I do not buy into your interpretation of it.
Your false witness against me is that I interpret scripture and I can only assume you think men have to interpret scripture in the natural as there is no Spiritual revelation as to the truth of scripture.That is not relevant to this discuss. Please start a thread about that if you want greater clarification.
NonsenseHow is it flawed?
But you do interpret Scripture. Everyone does. You may desire your opinion be on par with what God's word teaches, but that is not the case. Sorry.
There is what?There it is... I was wondering when we were going to get to the "if you don't agree with me you are a reprobate" claim. Well, two can play that that game. The fact that you fail to agree with me shows that you do not have the Holy Spirit and are therefore unable to understand spiritual truths.
How do I know?How do I know if your sin increases or decreases... I guess I have to take your word for it... God can use anyone He wants to use. God even uses the enemies of Israel in the Old Testament.
No, you are saying God uses sin, not me.The Church never encourages Christians to remain in sin. That is why we have reconciliation. You are misrepresenting the Church here.
Of course you are implying that the Borgia Pope and his sin was used to represent Christ on earth. And you keep saying God uses that. Why would God want to represent His church as being vile?I never said sin was okay in any context.
You seriously lack understanding, or you are just being dishonest.It is not false to say you interpret Scripture because you do.
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world? 23 Jesus answered him, If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.God sent the Holy Spirit to lead His Church. What you state is false.
How can you say the same to me?Again with this... I say the same for you. Now what?
Was that what I argued?God did not leave us alone with a Bible, either. Besides, most Christians could not read until the mid-19th century, so a Bible would have been of no use to 99% of Christians until around 1850.
And? You think that one statement of Paul now trumps Jesus when He said you use tradition to void the word of God?And I quoted 2 Thessalonians 2:15 where Paul states to stand firm in traditions he taught, whether spoken or written. Next.
And you think the spoken word (tradition) and the letters Paul wrote were two different things. How truly childish.2 Thessalonians 2:15
15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.
Why then does your church make her equal? Your tradition says she is mediatrix, queen of heaven, that Jesus has to listen to her before he can act, that she is without sin etc. etc.Mary is not equal to Christ. Next.
Because I believe the scriptures are Spiritually revealed my mind is clouded?Well, I think there is one clouding your mind.... No what?
You got all of the above from Mt 16?Mt 16 was limited to the situation prior to Christ's death and crucifixion. Subsequently all the other apostles believed except Judas. Peter was only representative of the apostles. If he was primus inter pares, he was limited to that. All apostles had the same authority as Peter (see Paul's rebuke of Peter's hypocrisy). You're fostering gnosticism.
Correct, and I did say 'clearer picture'... the Chamberlain never went away especially since those are Christ's own words...."I will give YOU THE KEYS to the kingdom of heaven.What are you talking about? This is New Testament, not Old.
That was not my point....but let's dissect a few things. John was still alive, the language in Corinth was Greek, and Rome was Latin. It is interesting to note that Clement's authority was accepted, as the Corinthians preserved this letter and read it frequently on Sundays.Yes, I was thinking of them. Nothing there. The Letter "of Clement" never mentions John.
I don't, Christ established His One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church... you should take that up with HIM. 🤔And you assert an exclusive right to rule the world
How can we have any dialogue when you make things up? ^But your tradition takes president over scripture, that is why you adore Mary so much and pretend you don't worship her, you "merely" adore her above all, even Christ.
Yes, you are not part of the Church established by Christ, so you part of a sectarian movement.My movement?
Why is that strange?Strange how you think I belong to a man made movement.
What does Peter/Cephus mean?What you seem to lack knowledge of is that it is not men who build a church or start a movement.
Jesus Christ is the cornerstone, not Peter.
What does Peter/Cephus mean?You have built your Church on the wrong rock, and Christ the cornerstone is the stumbling block over which you keep stumbling.
That is a false statement. We do not place Mary above Christ. Please stop bearing false witness.He is building His church and His church is comprised of every born again believer across the world.
Your adoration of Mary and placing her above the Son in status by equating her to Christ as sinless and co-mediatrix etc, point to you building on the teachings of men, and not on Christ.
I do not worship Mary. Again with the false statements..But your tradition takes president over scripture, that is why you adore Mary so much and pretend you don't worship her, you "merely" adore her above all, even Christ.
I ask Mary (and the saints) to pray for me as I ask my fellow Christians to pray for me. Do you not ask others to pray for you for anything?How many times a day do you pray and have a one sided conversation with her?
You keep referring to the Borgias. I do not think they were good, but I also think God preserved His Church despite our faithfulness. (2 Timothy 2:13)And? You think I do not believe all of say Ephesians 4?
You think it teaches that we should not have a personal relationship with our Lord and Savior, but have a secondhand relationship through men who are not Godly like the Borgia Pope?
There you go again with the Borgias...Yeah right, you believe that you should submit yourself to a devil like the Borgia Pope.
The Church is full of sinners. I trust in God's faithfulness and for Him to keep his promises.It just shows how absurd your comment below is.
You submit to the evil that has been exposed in and through the leadership of your cult and then pretend it is Christ's church.... How absurd.
Could you be wrong? If not, why not? And does this mean anyone who disagrees with you disagrees with God? You see, if you punt to the Holy Spirit you can claim to teach many errant things and there is no way for you to be corrected. Through the Holy Sprit you have the truth and anyone who disagrees with you disagrees with God. You are uncorrectable.Again, why are you being dishonest?
Why do you insist I interpret scripture when I state God reveals scripture through the indwelling Holy Spirit.
See above.Your fight is with God and His scripture and then you try and make it about me. You are being dishonest and you should stop.
Again, uncorrectable.Your false witness against me is that I interpret scripture and I can only assume you think men have to interpret scripture in the natural as there is no Spiritual revelation as to the truth of scripture.
So you balk and run away when I show you the only people trying and failing to interpret scripture in the natural is your Magisterium.
Uncorrectable. Understood.Nonsense
9 But, as it is written,
What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
Your utter disdain for God and how He interacts with his children through His word is mind boggling.
You really do hate spiritual revelation of the word of God and claim there is no such thing, only interpretation.
Translation: if you do not agree with me you do not have the Holy Spirit.To me this is a clear sign that you do not have the indwelling Spirit, and that you are unable to discern Spiritual truths.
You prove that both you and your church by default are not of God but of the flesh.
Which pope? There have been many good ones.Your popes and their vile actions also prove that they were of the flesh.
Your claim to being the the church of Christ is debunked by your own testimony.
How is it dishonest to say you interpret Scripture? This is a very odd stance. Ever heard of the word hermeneutics?There is what?
Your testimony is that you can only interpret scripture.
You also want to paint me into the same corner you are in, which is being dishonest.
And is therefore uncorrectable. I understand what you are saying.My testimony which you insist on ignoring is that the truth in Scripture is revealed by the indwelling Holy Spirit.
And you can only interpret Scripture and give your opinion.Therefore, by your own testimony you are saying you are devoid of the Holy Spirit, because you can only interpret scripture and give your opinion.
Translation: if you do not agree with me you do not have the Holy Spirit.The fact that I cannot agree with you is because we do not have the same Spirit indwelling us, you are correct. It is however not up to interpretation to see whom has a spirit that denies the revelation of scripture and renders it to mere opinion, and who has the Spirit that says, the helper has come, and indwells the child of God and He reveals the Spiritual truths in scripture to the child of God.
This all you are giving me to work with, sorry...So give me a better reason than, I do not agree, therefore you do not have the Spirit. Surely you are mature enough to that, or perhaps not...
Then why are you on this forum? And how in the world am I supposed to get a testimony from someone over the internet. And if I could, why should I trust them any more than you?How do I know?
For goodness sake, don't take my word. Speak to the people who interact with me and who knew me before Christ saved me.
Are you a child, for you reason like a child.
I do not need you to believe me, God is my witness.
No. That is false. That was never my argument. You need to repent of that accusation.Your argument is that God put a devil in Christ's place as His representative.
This is an ad hominem. It is like asking a married man: when did you stop beating your wife?How far will you carry on with belittling God like this? How on earth could you compare Jesus Christ and the Borgia Pope and hope that you can convince others that God actually used the Borgia Pope to represent Jesus Christ.
It is becoming disgusting when I think of how you are trying harder and harder to justify sin.
The Church never endorses sin. Period.No, you are saying God uses sin, not me.
Do you think the Borgia Pope who remained in sin was reconciled? Your Church trough it's endorsement of the sin of the Popes misrepresent Christ and the Scriptures.
Ever heard of King David? He had a man killed in order to get his wife, but God somehow used him. Next.Of course you are implying that the Borgia Pope and his sin was used to represent Christ on earth. And you keep saying God uses that. Why would God want to represent His church as being vile?
I get it, you are uncorrectable.You seriously lack understanding, or you are just being dishonest.
I will say it again: The Spirit of God who indwells believers reveal the Spiritual truths in scripture to them. He does not tell them to just interpret it the way they want.
So stop lying about me interpreting scripture.
This promise was made to the Church.22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world? 23 Jesus answered him, If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.
25 These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
No, I love Scripture. That is why I am here to confront people who abuse it.You truly hate the Scriptures don't you...
This was Christ pray that His Church be one. Protestants have made this almost impossible to become a reality.Do you think this talks to individuals, or to the leaders of a church only?
20 I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent m
I never said any such thing about interpretation. I claim everyone interprets. Those in the Church also have the added benefit of the Holy Spirit to help guide their reading.How can you say the same to me?
I say I do not interpret the scriptures using my natural mind. I say I receive Spiritual revelation. You claim you don't need revelation for you can only interpret.
To claim something does not make it true. You can "claim" all day long and still be wrong.It then becomes obvious to everyone that you are devoid of the Spirit, while I claim that I testify that I am indwelt by the Spirit.
But your "say-so" does? Funny.So make your argument to prove it the other way around. Your say-so just does not cut it.
Again, a promise made to His Church.Was that what I argued?
Not at all.
12 I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. (John 16)
Have you ever studied how the canon was developed? Be careful, you are complimenting members of the Catholic Church here... I also note you totally sidestepped my comment about mass illiteracy. I am not surprised.God did make sure that He used the correct men to inspire when He commissioned the New Testament, and that He used the correct men to compile the cannon.
11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. (Eph 4)
I do not think he wrote and preached different things, no.And? You think that one statement of Paul now trumps Jesus when He said you use tradition to void the word of God?
Are you a child that you debate like a child?
Before the NT was compiled when Paul went and preached, your mind somehow tells you that He preached a different message to the one he wrote down?
I never claimed he did... I just claimed there were two forms: spoken and written.How absurd! Just because He preached and did not leave a letter behind, does not mean the oral message differed from the written message. Why would you presume it does, and why would you presume that the tradition he spoke of was in any way different to what he wrote, and that it would make void the word of God like your tradition does?
No.And you think the spoken word (tradition) and the letters Paul wrote were two different things. How truly childish.
She was without sin because she is the Theotokos. Mary is in NO WAY superior to Christ. How many times do we need to correct you on this. Oh, wait... you are beyond correction. My bad.Why then does your church make her equal? Your tradition says she is mediatrix, queen of heaven, that Jesus has to listen to her before he can act, that she is without sin etc. etc.
How is that NOT equating equality with Christ to her, or even superiority to Christ.
Nothing the Catholic Church actually teaches makes void the word of God. Another false statement that I would try to correct, but you know... correction does not apply to you.You try and justify your traditions that make void the word of God and do it with arrogance. You should be ashamed.
I really wish your Protestant brothers and sisters would step in and correct you here. They would say that they interpret the Bible correctly. They would not deny interpretation is involved. This is basic stuff, really.Because I believe the scriptures are Spiritually revealed my mind is clouded?
You are the one claiming you can only interpret scripture therefore you are the one with the clouded mind.
I honestly have no place to go with you. If you are beyond correction all discussions are your monologs.You should at least try to prove it instead of just saying it is so... Now what?
So Peter got given the keys. But Paul alleged that many would claim the keys who were not entitled to them.You got all of the above from Mt 16?WOW!
Correct, and I did say 'clearer picture'... the Chamberlain never went away especially since those are Christ's own words...."I will give YOU THE KEYS to the kingdom of heaven.
And who is "us?" As I said, the only way this could have arisen was by an application to Rome for arbitration. Language differences were irrelevant as educated people were multi-lingual. No authority over John is implied. If you submit a dispute for arbitration, it is incumbent on you to accept the outcome.That was not my point....but let's dissect a few things. John was still alive, the language in Corinth was Greek, and Rome was Latin. It is interesting to note that Clement's authority was accepted, as the Corinthians preserved this letter and read it frequently on Sundays.
“The apostles preached the gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ, therefore, is from God, and the apostles are from Christ… as they (the apostles) preached, therefore, in the countryside and in the cities, they appointed their first fruits – and having tested them through the Spirit – to be bishops and deacons of the future believers.” ....
“If some shall disobey the words which have been spoken by Him (Christ) through us (Clement) let them know that they will involve themselves in no small transgression and danger.”
Jhn 18:36 "Jesus said, 'My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.'"I don't, Christ established His One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church... you should take that up with HIM. 🤔
Making things up?How can we have any dialogue when you make things up? ^
as Manfred says 'how absurd'![]()
Because it is Spiritual (Not man made, but in and through Christ) and not physical (Through men)Yes, you are not part of the Church established by Christ, so you part of a sectarian movement.
Why is that strange?
You think that little rock means Peter is the cornerstone?What does Peter/Cephus mean?
What does Peter/Cephus mean?
I have shown you how you do. You also place Peter above Christ in that you believe he is the little rock your church is built on.That is a false statement. We do not place Mary above Christ. Please stop bearing false witness.
You don't?I do not worship Mary. Again with the false statements..
People that I can have a conversation with.I ask Mary (and the saints) to pray for me as I ask my fellow Christians to pray for me. Do you not ask others to pray for you for anything?
Of course God preserves His church. The problem you can't seem to deal with is that the Borgia's prove your church is not the church God is preserving.You keep referring to the Borgias. I do not think they were good, but I also think God preserved His Church despite our faithfulness. (2 Timothy 2:13)
Yes, and there you go again justifying their sin.There you go again with the Borgias...
Are you not redeemed? You still label yourself an unredeemed sinner....The Church is full of sinners. I trust in God's faithfulness and for Him to keep his promises.
Matt 16:18
Duet. 31:6
Hebrews 13:5
2 Thesss. 3:3
1 John 1:9
What a sad attempt to justify your error.Could you be wrong? If not, why not? And does this mean anyone who disagrees with you disagrees with God? You see, if you punt to the Holy Spirit you can claim to teach many errant things and there is no way for you to be corrected. Through the Holy Sprit you have the truth and anyone who disagrees with you disagrees with God. You are uncorrectable.
See above.
Again, uncorrectable.
Uncorrectable. Understood.
No. I am saying that if you are only able to interpret scripture or lean on the interpretation of other men then you do not have the indwelling HS that reveals the Spiritual truths within scripture.Translation: if you do not agree with me you do not have the Holy Spirit.
Yes I have.Which pope? There have been many good ones.
How is it dishonest to say you interpret Scripture? This is a very odd stance. Ever heard of the word hermeneutics?
What do you mean? Can you correct the Holy Spirit?And is therefore uncorrectable. I understand what you are saying.
This is getting boring and ridiculous.And you can only interpret Scripture and give your opinion.
Here:
https://www.britannica.com/topic/hermeneutics-principles-of-biblical-interpretation
You think the Borgia Pope was Holy....No. That is false. That was never my argument. You need to repent of that accusation.
This is an ad hominem. It is like asking a married man: when did you stop beating your wife?
The Church never endorses sin. Period.
And yet you are the one that stands un-correctable despite all the logic and scriptural support given. Like a child who blocks his ears and goes nuhuh.....Ever heard of King David? He had a man killed in order to get his wife, but God somehow used him. Next.
I get it, you are uncorrectable.
This promise was made to the Church.
No, I love Scripture. That is why I am here to confront people who abuse it.
This was Christ pray that His Church be one. Protestants have made this almost impossible to become a reality.
I never said any such thing about interpretation. I claim everyone interprets. Those in the Church also have the added benefit of the Holy Spirit to help guide their reading.
To claim something does not make it true. You can "claim" all day long and still be wrong.
But your "say-so" does? Funny.
I am just replying to this for now.Again, a promise made to His Church.
Yes, by Our Savior!So Peter got given the keys.
Yes, they would 'distort the truth' so it would be imperative to select men filled with the faith [Acts 6, 1 Tim5, 2 Tim1, Acts 14]. The Church was aware of false faiths [1Jn2:19].But Paul alleged that many would claim the keys who were not entitled to them.
Acts 20:29.
The Church established in Rome by Peter and Paul.And who is "us?"
They didn't go to John to clear up the situation.... Rome got involved even though they were a 'distant Church'.As I said, the only way this could have arisen was by an application to Rome for arbitration. Language differences were irrelevant as educated people were multi-lingual. No authority over John is implied.
We agree!.... His Kingdom is not of this world. Christ established a Church [guided by the Holy Spirit] to get us to the ultimate destination! 😁Jesus said, 'My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.'"