The Church vs. The Individual

Anselm01

Active member
My insistence is that I do not interpret scripture, but that God reveals the spiritual truths within scripture to me and those who are born again.
You are wrong. Your epistemological method is also unverifiable. Anyone can claim they are right because that have the Holy Spirit and those they disagree with are wrong because they don't. If we are just going to assert things and then say they are true because of the Holy Spirit, we are wasting our time. I can just do the same and round and round we go...
No. I am saying that if you are only able to interpret scripture or lean on the interpretation of other men then you do not have the indwelling HS that reveals the Spiritual truths within scripture.
The natural man cannot understand the Spiritual, for it is folly to him.
It is folly to not see it you way... Got it.
You don't have to agree with me, that is your prerogative.
But I do, since you have truth revelated to you directly by God. To not agree with you is the not believe God.
Yes I have.

Here, apply some hermeneutic to these scriptures and tell me what you understand it to mean:

17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

5 that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.

14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
🥱
Does your hermaneutic tell you that you can interpret scripture with scripture in the natural?
Your insistence that I interpret scripture remains debunked.
This is getting old. I get it... Your "reading" of Scripture is correct because you "read" it in the Spirit. I don't read it the same way, so my reading of it is "natural." Please....
What do you mean? Can you correct the Holy Spirit?
You are not the Holy Spirit.
Are you so blinded that you think God reveals untruths to those He indwells? Why do you want to try and correct the HS?
Again, you are not the Holy Spirit.
Why can you NOT agree that your own interpretation of scripture without revelation from God can be corrected by God through His perfect revelation?
Is this an actual revelation apart from Scripture? Is God teaching you directly? What revelation are you talking about?
What is keeping you from accepting that? Surely it is not me.....
Surely....
This is getting boring and ridiculous.
Finally, we agree!
I have made my point well enough.
Dang, it was nice while it lasted...
You can carry on putting your trust in your own abilities and those of other men.
I will trust in God and I will stand on His revelation.
What revelation? Are you talking about the Bible or some special revelation from the Holy Spirit that is only for you? And if I trust you doesn't that mean I trust men?
You think the Borgia Pope was Holy....
🥱
It shows you how much you lack revelation of what it means to be holy...
You think this means holy:
9 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ever heard of David? Also, you are sowing divisions... I must stop engaging with you...
You also think "will not inherit the kingdom of God" actually means "God uses sinful men like the Borgia Pope, therefore despite his continuous unrepentant sins listed here he WILL INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD" I don't care that it says will not!
I never claimed such a thing.
He among others of your so-called successors were devils, and were most certainly not representing Christ who lived a perfectly sinless life. To even call him and others the representative of Christ is blasphemy.
Question: is your pastor sinless?
Is your argument therefore NOT that the Borgia pope represented Jesus Christ?
Is your argument not that he was at one point your most holy Father?
You do not understand the role of pope and why we refer to them that way. It must be because you do not have the Holy Spirit.
And yet you are the one that stands un-correctable despite all the logic and scriptural support given. Like a child who blocks his ears and goes nuhuh.....
I can be correct by correct things. What you have presented is not correct and is supported by you claiming to be the Holy Spirit.
Logic 101
By endorsing the Borgia Pope as your most holy Father and the representative of Jesus Christ on earth, you are endorsing his unrepentant lifestyle and sin as being that of a most holy man who is representing Christ on earth.
You think this is just say so....
I never endorsed any sinful action and I condemn any sinful action by any pope.
9 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
1 John 1:9

Here I leave you. You have continually misrepresented by views. You are also uncorrectable and your epistemology is unverifiable.

Matt: 10:14
 

Manfred

Well-known member
You are wrong. Your epistemological method is also unverifiable. Anyone can claim they are right because that have the Holy Spirit and those they disagree with are wrong because they don't. If we are just going to assert things and then say they are true because of the Holy Spirit, we are wasting our time. I can just do the same and round and round we go...
Your lack of belief in the word of God is astounding.

From this response it is clear that you do not believe the Holy Spirit indwells every born again believer, and you do not believe that Jesus Christ is your personal Lord and Savior.

You remain in your sin.

There are many who claim to have the HS. That is not news to anyone:
Have you ever heard or does your church ever mention Spiritual Discernment.

There is quite a bit of teaching in the word of God concerning this, and it is clear for everyone reading this thread to see that you and I do not have the same Spirit.
You have a spirit, glorifying your church and the men in your church and dead saints and Mary and tradition. You deny the Holy Spirit is given to individuals and that He is the revelator of truth, your insistence is that your church trumps the HS and he was given to the Borgia Pope as an example.

My assertion is that those in the church that Christ and not men is building, are those who were born again by the Spirit of God, who live by the Spirit and His leading, and who glorify God alone, and who believe His Word above tradition that makes His word void, are those that God placed within His church.

All who read this can easily discern for themselves who is the wheat and who are the tares.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Absolutely! After all, you have no other way to challenge Christ's Catholic Church. You are blinded [2Cor 4:3-4] by the truth Manfred [or blinded by the light - Springsteen ...Manfred Mann].
Not at all. I believe I have the indwelling Holy Spirit leading me. You believe you have men like the Borgia Pope leading you.

2 But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God's word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, Let light shine out of darkness, has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
 

Anselm01

Active member
Your lack of belief in the word of God is astounding.
No. I lack belief in you.
From this response it is clear that you do not believe the Holy Spirit indwells every born again believer, and you do not believe that Jesus Christ is your personal Lord and Savior.
This depends on what you mean by "born again." I do believe that Jesus is my Lord and Savior. I am Catholic after all.
You remain in your sin.
I attend confession at least once a month, so...
There are many who claim to have the HS. That is not news to anyone:
Have you ever heard or does your church ever mention Spiritual Discernment.
And here you are claiming the HS and demanding I agree with you or show that by disagreeing with you I show that I do not have the HS. This is a very convenient position for you.
There is quite a bit of teaching in the word of God concerning this, and it is clear for everyone reading this thread to see that you and I do not have the same Spirit.
Anyone reading this will see that you make assertions and expect everyone to agree with you or be a reprobate.
You have a spirit, glorifying your church and the men in your church and dead saints and Mary and tradition. You deny the Holy Spirit is given to individuals and that He is the revelator of truth, your insistence is that your church trumps the HS and he was given to the Borgia Pope as an example.
No. This is a false statement. The glory is God's. If He chooses to work though his people, that is up to Him.
My assertion is that those in the church that Christ and not men is building, are those who were born again by the Spirit of God, who live by the Spirit and His leading, and who glorify God alone, and who believe His Word above tradition that makes His word void, are those that God placed within His church.
My assertion is that Jesus established a Church (an historical and biblical fact) and that the Catholic Church is that same Church.
All who read this can easily discern for themselves who is the wheat and who are the tares.
All who read that can do whatever they want. So?
 

Manfred

Well-known member
And here you are claiming the HS and demanding I agree with you or show that by disagreeing with you I show that I do not have the HS. This is a very convenient position for you.
Not what I said at all.

It shows the lack of discernment you have.

You claim to be Catholic and yet you don't even know what it means to be born again?
 

Anselm01

Active member
Not what I said at all.

It shows the lack of discernment you have.

You claim to be Catholic and yet you don't even know what it means to be born again?
Does being "born again" mean I can make assertions without verifiable justification and declare those I disagree with reprobate? Because that is what it appears to mean to you.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Does being "born again" mean I can make assertions without verifiable justification and declare those I disagree with reprobate? Because that is what it appears to mean to you.
Verifiable justification?

Here it is-

The Holy Spirit indwells believers not a church hierarchy.
The Holy Spirit gives believers that walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh Spiritual revelation to understand the Spiritual truths in scripture. It is not revealed to them by flesh and blood, but by their Father who is in heaven. Those who are in the flesh interpret scripture in such a way that it suits their needs.
Believers glorify Jesus Christ who is the cornerstone, a stumbling stone to those who believe a church is built on men.

You think it is not verifiable because you cannot discern the scriptures. You try and interpret and lean on men and claim that people like the Borgia Pope were Christ Like and God used them as His representatives.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
My movement?

Strange how you think I belong to a man made movement.

What you seem to lack knowledge of is that it is not men who build a church or start a movement.
Jesus Christ is the cornerstone, not Peter

You have built your Church on the wrong rock, and Christ the cornerstone is the stumbling block over which you keep stumbling.

He is building His church and His church is comprised of every born again believer across the world.
Your adoration of Mary and placing her above the Son in status by equating her to Christ as sinless and co-mediatrix etc, point to you building on the teachings of men, and not on Christ.
Amen
 

Anselm01

Active member
Verifiable justification?

Here it is-

The Holy Spirit indwells believers not a church hierarchy.
The Church hierarchy is part of the Church.

John 14:25-26
25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

The "you" referred to here is the apostles, or those in authority.

John 14:16-17
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

Again, the "you" here are the apostles. These apostles had successors.

Clement of Rome
“Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry” (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).

These leader are to be obeyed.

Hebrews 13:17
17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you


The Holy Spirit gives believers that walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh Spiritual revelation to understand the Spiritual truths in scripture.
Is this special revelation? Or is it just a feeling you get when you read Scripture that tells you that you are reading it correctly?
It is not revealed to them by flesh and blood, but by their Father who is in heaven. Those who are in the flesh interpret scripture in such a way that it suits their needs.
Well, I say you read it "in the flesh." See, I can make a assertion just as well as you.
Believers glorify Jesus Christ who is the cornerstone, a stumbling stone to those who believe a church is built on men.
No issue with this.
You think it is not verifiable because you cannot discern the scriptures.
You interpretation is not Scripture.
You try and interpret and lean on men and claim that people like the Borgia Pope were Christ Like and God used them as His representatives.
I have never leaned on a Borgia pope for anything. They were like 500 years ago.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
The Church hierarchy is part of the Church.

John 14:25-26
25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

The "you" referred to here is the apostles, or those in authority.

John 14:16-17
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

Again, the "you" here are the apostles. These apostles had successors.

Clement of Rome
“Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry” (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).

These leader are to be obeyed.

Hebrews 13:17
17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you



Is this special revelation? Or is it just a feeling you get when you read Scripture that tells you that you are reading it correctly?

Well, I say you read it "in the flesh." See, I can make a assertion just as well as you.

No issue with this.

You interpretation is not Scripture.

I have never leaned on a Borgia pope for anything. They were like 500 years ago.
Try and stay focused. I never said the Apostles were not indwelt. So your rabbit trail is meaningless. I said that not only a hierarchy is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
I never said my interpretation is scripture, I said scripture is revealed to me through the indwelling Spirit.
Your so-called church claims succession as proof of authenticity so your statement that you have never lent on the Borgia Pope is just you huffing and puffing.

So if you want to convince anyone that your church trumps the Indwelling Holy Spirit, you would have to do a lot better than you are now.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
I believe I have the Holy Spirit guiding me through His One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church!
Yes, I know you do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. That is why you keep following men and not God
You have a pope every time you join a new ecclesial community.
What do you mean by this?
Do you know something about me I don't?
I have no pope that I adore who dresses in fine gold, wears a crown and who adores Mary above all.
 

Anselm01

Active member
Try and stay focused. I never said the Apostles were not indwelt. So your rabbit trail is meaningless. I said that not only a hierarchy is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
You wrote:
"The Holy Spirit indwells believers not a church hierarchy."

I do not see the words "not only" in that sentence. And I never claimed the Holy Spirit only indwells the bishops.
I never said my interpretation is scripture, I said scripture is revealed to me through the indwelling Spirit.
How? How is it "revealed" to you through the indwelling Spirit? Care to share this with us?
Your so-called church claims succession as proof of authenticity so your statement that you have never lent on the Borgia Pope is just you huffing and puffing.
I have never had any interaction with a Borgia Pope. This is not what apostolic succession is.
So if you want to convince anyone that your church trumps the Indwelling Holy Spirit, you would have to do a lot better than you are now.
I never stated the Church trumps the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I stated (and continue to state) that the Holy Spirit works through the Church.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
You wrote:
"The Holy Spirit indwells believers not a church hierarchy."
Ok
I do not see the words "not only" in that sentence. And I never claimed the Holy Spirit only indwells the bishops.
It was implicit. I do believe that all believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit
How? How is it "revealed" to you through the indwelling Spirit? Care to share this with us?
How? What a silly question.

20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. 21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (2Pet 1:20)

14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. (Act 16)

God opens the mind (eyes and ears) of those He chooses to reveal Himself to.

27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. (Matt 11)

45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, (Luke 24)

25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages 26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith— 27 to the only wise God be glory forevermore through Jesus Christ! Amen. (Rom 16)


I have never had any interaction with a Borgia Pope. This is not what apostolic succession is.
Your leaning on the Pope as a successor to Peter and your current pope as a successor of the Borgia Pope is clear to see.
Why are you now trying to deny it?

You are seeking to justify the ungodly behavior without change in that corrupt man and claim he was given the keys of the Kingdom of God, and that he could bind and loose.
It is a disgrace.
I never stated the Church trumps the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I stated (and continue to state) that the Holy Spirit works through the Church.
Not through the RCC.
The Holy Spirit works through individuals that make up the body of Christ.

You believe that the Holy Spirit worked through the Borgia Pope.
If that is your idea of the working of the Holy Spirit, then you are even worse off...
 

Anselm01

Active member
Ok

It was implicit. I do believe that all believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit
Right... I was supposed to read your mind.
How? What a silly question.

20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. 21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (2Pet 1:20)

14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. (Act 16)

God opens the mind (eyes and ears) of those He chooses to reveal Himself to.

27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. (Matt 11)

45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, (Luke 24)

25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages 26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith— 27 to the only wise God be glory forevermore through Jesus Christ! Amen. (Rom 16)
This does not prove anything about your personal "revelation" from God. These verse can apply to anyone, even the Church.
Your leaning on the Pope as a successor to Peter and your current pope as a successor of the Borgia Pope is clear to see.
Why are you now trying to deny it?
There have been bad popes. Yep.
You are seeking to justify the ungodly behavior without change in that corrupt man and claim he was given the keys of the Kingdom of God, and that he could bind and loose.
It is a disgrace.
I have never justified any bad behavior. Please stop bearing false witness.
Not through the RCC.
The Holy Spirit works through individuals that make up the body of Christ.
Your opinion. Hey, you have a right to have an opinion, even wrong ones.
You believe that the Holy Spirit worked through the Borgia Pope.
I believe the Holy Spirit can work they anyone, even you.
If that is your idea of the working of the Holy Spirit, then you are even worse off...
The Holy Spirit can work through anyone He chooses to. Period.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
This does not prove anything about your personal "revelation" from God. These verse can apply to anyone, even the Church.
And this is such a silly assertion.

What does it even mean that verses can apply to a church, when THE church is comprised of a body of believers.
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

You want to interpret scripture? Go ahead, it means nothing!

20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.
10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Your insistence that the fruit of the Spirit is the opposite of that which the word teaches is atrocious. Your idea that the Holy Spirit produced the fruit displayed by the Borgia Pope is blasphemous and an insult to the Holy Spirit...

Your argument that the Holy Spirit works through murder and incest and debauchery to glorify God and to represent God is truly atrocious. It just goes to show how you are bound by a false spirit, wanting you to justify such actions and then attribute them to the work of the Holy Spirit...

31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
 

Anselm01

Active member
And this is such a silly assertion.

What does it even mean that verses can apply to a church, when THE church is comprised of a body of believers.
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

You want to interpret scripture? Go ahead, it means nothing!
Back at you!
20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.
10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Okay... this does not apply to you.
Your insistence that the fruit of the Spirit is the opposite of that which the word teaches is atrocious. Your idea that the Holy Spirit produced the fruit displayed by the Borgia Pope is blasphemous and an insult to the Holy Spirit...
Again, and for the last time. I have never justified the evil actions of any man. Nor have I stated that the Holy Spirit produces evil fruit.
Your argument that the Holy Spirit works through murder and incest and debauchery to glorify God and to represent God is truly atrocious. It just goes to show how you are bound by a false spirit, wanting you to justify such actions and then attribute them to the work of the Holy Spirit...
Can can use anyone He wants, even people who are evil.
Genesis 50:20
20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

Jesus also personally picked a traitor.
Luke 6:12-16
12 In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

Ex opere operato "from the work performed." The Holy Spirit can work through any vessel, regardless of the state of their souls at the time. Sacramentally, a person's individual holiness cannot affect efficacy, as it is a grace that is given by Christ Himself. Efficacy depends on the proper disposition of the person receiving grace, not the person through which the grace is given.

You would have found a home with the Donatists on the 4th to 6th centuries.
31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
Well, I did not do that, so I am good.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
What did the RCC do when they disagreed with the EO churches over the filioque clause? Or over papal supremacy?
LOL! The only thing funnier is that your post got no response. Could it be that it is not considered fair to point out the obvious?

It was the individual, the Roman Pope, who went against a body of believers of which he was a part rather than submit.

What will they think of next?
 
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