The Circle And JW's

[imJRR]

)Something I wrote some years ago)

The Circle and JWs (this will work for any cult or cult-like group):

Picture a circle for the group called the JWs. Everything and everyone outside that circle is taught by the leaders and believed by the followers to be not safe/not of God/bad/sinful/of the devil/evil/opposed to truth/and the list of negative evil things goes on and on.

Meanwhile, within the circle it's taught by the leaders and believed by the masses that ONLY THIS GROUP is safe/loving/of God/has truth/has salvation/and so forth.

This is exactly how Jim Jones, David Koresch (sp?), Charles Russell, and other cultists viewed/view themselves and their group and the rest of the world. It's a very exclusive and very "us" verses "them" kind of mentality.

The circle diagram is a picture of the dynamics involved in any sort of significant-degree-of-control type of cult. The line that draws the circle is pretty well defined by those in charge. In other words, to use a biology illustration, this is not a very permeable (sp?) membrane – It's pretty hard and solid. And, it gets reinforced continually by teachings and writings about how bad/evil things (and people) are outside the circle and how the ONLY ONLY ONLY safe and good place is inside the circle

Now, besides the claim to exclusivity and superiority, let's add another dynamic: For everyone inside the circle (especially the leaders, who don't want their power and control threatened), one of the big priorities is to not allow any of the corruption/sin/evil/whatever that is in the 'evil outside' to come inside and disrupt or corrupt the group. Hence, not much in the way of in-depth relationships are encouraged with those "outside."

Add this to the mix as well: Will the masses defend the "truths and teachings" of the circle (plus those in authority who draw the line of the circle)? You betcha. Which means that questions and challenges to what the authorities say are discouraged. There is even the threat of tossing out (excommunication, or disfellowshipping) anyone who might be a threat of disruption or corruption from within (especially when those leaders who draw the line have told the followers to do this).

Now, let's think about it from a personal standpoint - here's a scenario: Here's a person who's been inside the circle for awhile. But, he/she comes to a point where the beliefs don't make sense anymore, and the practices are really looking both inconsistent, hypocritical and contrary to the Bible.

Think about the various kinds of pressure on that person to shut up, stop talking about these dangerous (disruptive and corruptive) ideas you're having, and be a "good" member of the circle and conform.

In other words, think about everything a JW will/will have to give up or be excluded from if they get df'd (tossed outside the circle): Friends, family, supposedly God, supposedly his salvation.

(You understand, of course, that I'm giving the part about 'losing God and salvation' from how a JW would see it, and this is NOT what I personally believe for anyone who leaves the JWs, right?)

Between the loss of most (maybe even every) significant relationship you have, PLUS the idea that, now that you're df'd, where are you? You're ALL ALONE in the bad/evil OUTSIDE – the place you've been warned about for years.

This is why a lot of JWs don't leave -- The blackmail factor, and the fear (terror) factor that goes with it.

I knew a JW like this years ago. He didn't believe the crapola that the WTS was teaching any more. But, he stayed and went through the motions because he still wanted to have relationship with his children - he knew he'd never see them again if he was honest with his (committed JW wife about where he was at. I still think of him now and then and say a prayer for him and his family when I do.

Bottom line – It's about power and control over people a whole lot more than it is about just beliefs. And the dynamics of power and control (how large they are and how far they go) are the things that makes JWs a cult.










REPLY

 

[Manfred]

)Something I wrote some years ago)

The Circle and JWs (this will work for any cult or cult-like group):

Picture a circle for the group called the JWs. Everything and everyone outside that circle is taught by the leaders and believed by the followers to be not safe/not of God/bad/sinful/of the devil/evil/opposed to truth/and the list of negative evil things goes on and on.

Meanwhile, within the circle it's taught by the leaders and believed by the masses that ONLY THIS GROUP is safe/loving/of God/has truth/has salvation/and so forth.

This is exactly how Jim Jones, David Koresch (sp?), Charles Russell, and other cultists viewed/view themselves and their group and the rest of the world. It's a very exclusive and very "us" verses "them" kind of mentality.

The circle diagram is a picture of the dynamics involved in any sort of significant-degree-of-control type of cult. The line that draws the circle is pretty well defined by those in charge. In other words, to use a biology illustration, this is not a very permeable (sp?) membrane – It's pretty hard and solid. And, it gets reinforced continually by teachings and writings about how bad/evil things (and people) are outside the circle and how the ONLY ONLY ONLY safe and good place is inside the circle

Now, besides the claim to exclusivity and superiority, let's add another dynamic: For everyone inside the circle (especially the leaders, who don't want their power and control threatened), one of the big priorities is to not allow any of the corruption/sin/evil/whatever that is in the 'evil outside' to come inside and disrupt or corrupt the group. Hence, not much in the way of in-depth relationships are encouraged with those "outside."

Add this to the mix as well: Will the masses defend the "truths and teachings" of the circle (plus those in authority who draw the line of the circle)? You betcha. Which means that questions and challenges to what the authorities say are discouraged. There is even the threat of tossing out (excommunication, or disfellowshipping) anyone who might be a threat of disruption or corruption from within (especially when those leaders who draw the line have told the followers to do this).

Now, let's think about it from a personal standpoint - here's a scenario: Here's a person who's been inside the circle for awhile. But, he/she comes to a point where the beliefs don't make sense anymore, and the practices are really looking both inconsistent, hypocritical and contrary to the Bible.

Think about the various kinds of pressure on that person to shut up, stop talking about these dangerous (disruptive and corruptive) ideas you're having, and be a "good" member of the circle and conform.

In other words, think about everything a JW will/will have to give up or be excluded from if they get df'd (tossed outside the circle): Friends, family, supposedly God, supposedly his salvation.

(You understand, of course, that I'm giving the part about 'losing God and salvation' from how a JW would see it, and this is NOT what I personally believe for anyone who leaves the JWs, right?)

Between the loss of most (maybe even every) significant relationship you have, PLUS the idea that, now that you're df'd, where are you? You're ALL ALONE in the bad/evil OUTSIDE – the place you've been warned about for years.

This is why a lot of JWs don't leave -- The blackmail factor, and the fear (terror) factor that goes with it.

I knew a JW like this years ago. He didn't believe the crapola that the WTS was teaching any more. But, he stayed and went through the motions because he still wanted to have relationship with his children - he knew he'd never see them again if he was honest with his (committed JW wife about where he was at. I still think of him now and then and say a prayer for him and his family when I do.

Bottom line – It's about power and control over people a whole lot more than it is about just beliefs. And the dynamics of power and control (how large they are and how far they go) are the things that makes JWs a cult.










REPLY

Power and control

I would be scared just thinking about it. A true cult.

Quite sad that grace eludes the JW movement.

 

[Ongyo no Kiheiji]

)Something I wrote some years ago)

The Circle and JWs (this will work for any cult or cult-like group):

Picture a circle for the group called the JWs. Everything and everyone outside that circle is taught by the leaders and believed by the followers to be not safe/not of God/bad/sinful/of the devil/evil/opposed to truth/and the list of negative evil things goes on and on.

Meanwhile, within the circle it's taught by the leaders and believed by the masses that ONLY THIS GROUP is safe/loving/of God/has truth/has salvation/and so forth.

This is exactly how Jim Jones, David Koresch (sp?), Charles Russell, and other cultists viewed/view themselves and their group and the rest of the world. It's a very exclusive and very "us" verses "them" kind of mentality.

You mean like Trinitarians, Modalists, the other (so-called) Abrahamic faiths, ect?

The circle diagram is a picture of the dynamics involved in any sort of significant-degree-of-control type of cult. The line that draws the circle is pretty well defined by those in charge. In other words, to use a biology illustration, this is not a very permeable (sp?) membrane – It's pretty hard and solid. And, it gets reinforced continually by teachings and writings about how bad/evil things (and people) are outside the circle and how the ONLY ONLY ONLY safe and good place is inside the circle

Are you unaware that that's exactly what the Bible does?

Now, besides the claim to exclusivity and superiority, let's add another dynamic: For everyone inside the circle (especially the leaders, who don't want their power and control threatened), one of the big priorities is to not allow any of the corruption/sin/evil/whatever that is in the 'evil outside' to come inside and disrupt or corrupt the group. Hence, not much in the way of in-depth relationships are encouraged with those "outside."

Again, you do realize this is how all the (so-called) Abrahamic faiths are, and thus is (also) how (Biblical) Christianity is, correct?

Add this to the mix as well: Will the masses defend the "truths and teachings" of the circle (plus those in authority who draw the line of the circle)? You betcha. Which means that questions and challenges to what the authorities say are discouraged. There is even the threat of tossing out (excommunication, or disfellowshipping) anyone who might be a threat of disruption or corruption from within (especially when those leaders who draw the line have told the followers to do this).

Interestingly, this is what was done in the first centuries of Christianity.

Now, let's think about it from a personal standpoint - here's a scenario: Here's a person who's been inside the circle for awhile. But, he/she comes to a point where the beliefs don't make sense anymore, and the practices are really looking both inconsistent, hypocritical and contrary to the Bible.

Think about the various kinds of pressure on that person to shut up, stop talking about these dangerous (disruptive and corruptive) ideas you're having, and be a "good" member of the circle and conform.

In other words, think about everything a JW will/will have to give up or be excluded from if they get df'd (tossed outside the circle): Friends, family, supposedly God, supposedly his salvation.

(You understand, of course, that I'm giving the part about 'losing God and salvation' from how a JW would see it, and this is NOT what I personally believe for anyone who leaves the JWs, right?)

You do also realize that this is a two-way street, correct?

Between the loss of most (maybe even every) significant relationship you have, PLUS the idea that, now that you're df'd, where are you? You're ALL ALONE in the bad/evil OUTSIDE – the place you've been warned about for years.

This is why a lot of JWs don't leave -- The blackmail factor, and the fear (terror) factor that goes with it.

Where did you get this information from?

First, every JW would have to have been born into the faith for this to be true. (This is not the case.)
Secondly, this would mean that every JW follows the 'instruction' to "not communicate with the disfellowshipped"(--something else that does not often happen).

I knew a JW like this years ago. He didn't believe the crapola that the WTS was teaching any more. But, he stayed and went through the motions because he still wanted to have relationship with his children - he knew he'd never see them again if he was honest with his (committed JW wife about where he was at. I still think of him now and then and say a prayer for him and his family when I do.

Interestingly, my mom went through the same thing after leaving a Baptist church and becoming a JW(. Her family members don't have a real relationship with her for a long time).

Yet, no one talks about that, do they? (Double-edged sword indeed.)

Bottom line – It's about power and control over people a whole lot more than it is about just beliefs. And the dynamics of power and control (how large they are and how far they go) are the things that makes JWs a cult.

Or, it's about following (what is believed to be) Scriptural beliefs and practices of 1st century Judeo-Christianity.

 

[Manfred]

You mean like Trinitarians, Modalists, the other (so-called) Abrahamic faiths, ect?

Nope he was clear. Rather like the RCC or the Mormons
Jesus is building His church. His church, is not run by men who sit at councils and determine what literature their adherents must read, and tell them what they must believe.
We are lead by the Holy Spirit of God.

Are you claiming that the masters within your organization are Spirit filled believers who worship Christ as their Lord and Savior, and are lead by the same Spirit, and are gifted as the Spirit of God gifts.....

The rest of your objections fail on the exact same basis.

 

[Ongyo no Kiheiji]

Nope he was clear. Rather like the RCC or the Mormons

You do realize the RCC that made "Trinitarianism" an official church teaching(. Therefore, it is "Trinitarians" as I stated), correct?

Jesus is building His church. His church, is not run by men who sit at councils and determine what literature their adherents must read, and tell them what they must believe.
We are lead by the Holy Spirit of God.

If that were true, there would be no church councils, no pastors, no other literature (such as Sunday school books), ect within your "church bodies".

All would be free to believe what they want based on how they understood the Bible.

Are you claiming that the masters within your organization are Spirit filled believers who worship Christ as their Lord and Savior, and are lead by the same Spirit, and are gifted as the Spirit of God gifts.....

I have but one master, Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 8:6).

And yes, he is possesses the spirit of God.

The rest of your objections fail on the exact same basis.

Do they?

 

[Manfred]

You do realize the RCC that made "Trinitarianism" an official church teaching(. Therefore, it is "Trinitarians" as I stated), correct?

If you want to believe that, you are free to do so.
When the catholic church decided to put men and tradition before the word of God, the RCC came into being.
The trinity doctrine was established before that.

If that were true, there would be no church councils, no pastors, no other literature (such as Sunday school books), ect within your "church bodies".

That is your opinion. Jesus said He would send the Holy Spirit, and He has. The HS indwells believers as per scripture, and He teaches by conviction.
Institutions where men sit and decide what is best for the "sheeple" and the "sheeple" are prevented to find the truth within the valid Scriptures, and are given literature wherein, the orginization ensures that it remains in control of them, then you have cults like Mormons, JW's and the RCC

All would be free to believe what they want based on how they understood the Bible.

On essential doctrine?
God most certainly is not that irresponsible.
You do know that Christ is both the author and perfector of faith?
If you do not believe in the imputed righteousness of Christ, and that salvation stands on that fact, then you have heard a different gospel.
Paul teaches that those with a different gospel are accursed.

Do you believe that Jesus sacrifice is enough for salvation, and that His righteousness is imputed to you, once for all time?

I have but one master, Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 8:6).

And yes, he is possesses the spirit of God.

Who is he? I asked if your Masters (to which you object ((what would you call them?)) were filled with the HS and you said "yes, he is possesses the spirit of God"

Can you explain what you were trying to say there?

Do they?

Yes, they do

 

[Ongyo no Kiheiji]

If you want to believe that, you are free to do so.
When the catholic church decided to put men and tradition before the word of God, the RCC came into being.
The trinity doctrine was established before that.

I don't know who told you that.

That is your opinion.

Such is a fact.

Jesus said He would send the Holy Spirit, and He has. The HS indwells believers as per scripture, and He teaches by conviction.

All in the 1st century had the gift of the holy spirit; and yet, it was the apostles who goverened, with episcopals and bishops and elders managing the individual congregations.

Institutions where men sit and decide what is best for the "sheeple" and the "sheeple" are prevented to find the truth within the valid Scriptures, and are given literature wherein, the orginization ensures that it remains in control of them, then you have cults like Mormons, JW's and the RCC

JWs do not prevent anyone from finding "the truth within the valid Scriptures". And the literature of the WTS is "commentary" so is not used to control anyone, but expound on Scripture.

So the question must be asked: what do you consider "valid Scriptures"?

On essential doctrine?
God most certainly is not that irresponsible.

All doctrine is "essential" per the Bible (and thus per the teaching of JWs).

You do know that Christ is both the author and perfector of faith?

As do all JWs.

If you do not believe in the imputed righteousness of Christ, and that salvation stands on that fact, then you have heard a different gospel.
Paul teaches that those with a different gospel are accursed.

IOW, since JWs teach that Jesus is 'the author and finisher of our faith', and sine we "believe in the imputed righteousness of Christ, and that salvation stands on that fact", we are not among those considered accursed, correct?

Do you believe that Jesus sacrifice is enough for salvation, and that His righteousness is imputed to you, once for all time?

All JWs believe this.

Who is he?

Jesus.

I asked if your Masters (to which you object ((what would you call them?)) were filled with the HS and you said "yes, he is possesses the spirit of God"
Can you explain what you were trying to say there?

What I stated was self-explanatory.

You asked about my "masters" to which I replied:

I have but one master, Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 8:6).

And yes, he(--my master, Jesus Christ) possesses the spirit of God.

Yes, they do

From the looks of things, only the accusations presented in this thread fail.

 

[Manfred]

I don't know who told you that.

History

All in the 1st century had the gift of the holy spirit; and yet, it was the apostles who goverened, with episcopals and bishops and elders managing the individual congregations.

And? When the Apostles died the RCC tried to model that incorrectly. Just as your organization is trying.

JWs do not prevent anyone from finding "the truth within the valid Scriptures". And the literature of the WTS is "commentary" so is not used to control anyone, but expound on Scripture.

See the other thread started. From quotes from your own organization it surely does.

So the question must be asked: what do you consider "valid Scriptures"?

Scripture inspired by God and not changed by men to fit with men's teaching.

All doctrine is "essential" per the Bible (and thus per the teaching of JWs).

Do your woman wear hats to church? Do you meet every day and have communion daily? Have you sold all your belongings and given it to your elders to distribute as they see fit? Do you believe in the doctrine of hell? Do you believe in the doctrine of the giftings of the Spirit, and do you teach that every person has a different gift from the Holy Spirit to bring.

As do all JWs.

IOW, since JWs teach that Jesus is 'the author and finisher of our faith', and sine we "believe in the imputed righteousness of Christ, and that salvation stands on that fact", we are not among those considered accursed, correct?

Are you now claiming that you are not saved by doing good works?
How can you say you believe in imputed righteousness but ultimately it is your righteousness that saves you?

It is an oxymoron. How can Jesus be the propitiation for your sin, if your righteousness becomes the propitiation of your sin.

All JWs believe this.

So you believe that His righteousness is enough for salvation and you do not have to add any deeds to it?

Jesus.

What I stated was self-explanatory.

You asked about my "masters" to which I replied:

Are you indwelt with the Holy Spirit or only your elders?

From the looks of things, only the accusations presented in this thread fail.

Not so quick. It is easy for Cultist to obfuscate and make assertions without expanding on an issue, like the righteousness of Christ.
I will wait to see if you know what Saved by grace through faith means.

 

[Ongyo no Kiheiji]

History

You clearly haven't studied the history of the EKKLHSIA.

And? When the Apostles died the RCC tried to model that incorrectly. Just as your organization is trying.

How has it been modeled "incorrectly"?

See the other thread started. From quotes from your own organization it surely does.

Can you be more specific?

Scripture inspired by God and not changed by men to fit with men's teaching.

What scripture(s) has/have "been changed to fit with men's teaching"?

Do your woman wear hats to church?

Sometimes.

Do you meet every day and have communion daily?

No church does.

Have you sold all your belongings and given it to your elders to distribute as they see fit?

No church does.

Do you believe in the doctrine of hell?

Hell (as taught in many churches) hasn't been taught by neither Jesus or the apostles.

Do you believe in the doctrine of the giftings of the Spirit, and do you teach that every person has a different gift from the Holy Spirit to bring.

Yes.

Are you now claiming that you are not saved by doing good works?

No one is saved by doing good works.

How can you say you believe in imputed righteousness but ultimately it is your righteousness that saves you?

Who told you that?

It is an oxymoron. How can Jesus be the propitiation for your sin, if your righteousness becomes the propitiation of your sin.

Righteousness is a result of salvation. (Who have you been talking to?)

So you believe that His righteousness is enough for salvation and you do not have to add any deeds to it?

All JWs do.

Are you indwelt with the Holy Spirit or only your elders?

Yes I am.

Not so quick. It is easy for Cultist to obfuscate and make assertions without expanding on an issue, like the righteousness of Christ.
I will wait to see if you know what Saved by grace through faith means.

I don't think you understand what is taught by JWs.