The Confiteor

1Thess521 said:
you said
""Clearly there must be a way to be perfect as our heaven Father is perfect, or Jesus wouldn't have commanded it.""

so I ask
I there anyone (adult) living today who is perfect in deed and thought (the context of Matthew 5)

Clearly, you must think there is: so who is it?

back up your claim
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pilgrim said:
I wouldn't know because I can't prove it. But neither can you disprove it.
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nor do you want to know the truth of it, or you'd check the meaning of that word.

pilgrim said:
I look to the lives of the saints.
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His saints or those made up by the rcc? you aren't looking to those who are His saints in scripture.

pilgrim said:
Many of them had extraordinary gifts given to them by God: gifts of bilocation, prophecy, visions, reading hearts,etc.
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what do you mean by those? give examples of them. are they taught by the rcc?

pilgrim said:
I believe that most if not all reached perfection in their lives.
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look it up and you might get an idea of how one reaches that place in life.

pilgrim said:
Matt 9:24
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
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have you kept all the commandments?

when will you do that part?
 
1Thess521 said:
no one is prefect except God

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."
"My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."
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So, you agree to "Be a sinner and let your sins be strong"?
Is that how protestants follow Jesus?
 
pilgrim said:
So, you agree to "Be a sinner and let your sins be strong"?
Is that how protestants follow Jesus?
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That is not what the poster posted. It is also misrepresenting Luther. Bearing false witness.

If it was possible for RCs to be perfect, they would not need confession, last rites, purgatory. So this must mean go sin then confess, go sin then confess, sin all you like you have confession, last rites and purgatory. Wear the right scapular and you bypass purgatory not sure how as that is to make you clean.
 
pilgrim said:
I wouldn't know because I can't prove it. But neither can you disprove it. I look to the lives of the saints. Many of them had extraordinary gifts given to them by God: gifts of bilocation, prophecy, visions, reading hearts,etc. I believe that most if not all reached perfection in their lives.

Matt 9:24
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
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When making that claim for so called RC saints one needs to be careful. I mean are you talking of Catherine of Siena who is said to have visions from the age of 5 and when she was 21 received a very strange wedding ring. She liked to whip herself 3 times a day and wore sackcloth.

Or Padre Pio strange man - for he once wrote that the “perfect Christian” must punish his own body to such a degree that he “must make sure that it hurts.”

St Theresa of Avila - who couldn't pray without Satan appearing and went to hell.

This is from 10 Catholic saints who'd be considered mentally ill.

You need to read the verse in context. Have all RCs sold their possessions and given them to the poor, oh well no treasure for you in heaven.
 
pilgrim said:
I wouldn't know because I can't prove it. But neither can you disprove it. I look to the lives of the saints. Many of them had extraordinary gifts given to them by God: gifts of bilocation, prophecy, visions, reading hearts,etc. I believe that most if not all reached perfection in their lives.
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People in general speaking, think well of those, who they think are successful in spirituality and in life. Having the above gifts is meaningless, if we are NOT known by Christ. One of the things that has stuck out like a sore thumb is the fact that for all the “works” performed and all the Eucharists performed, there is still the expressing of doubt spoken out loud by individuals who rely on works to earn eternal life.

If there was absolute assurance of eternal life, in a Rc's mind and heart. One would not hope for mary to get them out of purgatory or rely on the backup of indulgences. People in general speaking profess to know Christ, because of their many works.

But Jesus says in Scripture

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

We can see in the passages above, that just because someone performs signs and wonders, or has “extraordinary gifts” gains nothing in the eyes of God, if He … not us... but Him... never knowing us individually on a personal and intimate level. So these saints you are proud of, have absolutely nothing to boast in about themselves and their gifts.

John 6:29
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

The above is so important, far more important than any extraordinary feats that any saint could have ever performed. They won't matter or mean anything if Christ says to you... I never knew you.
 
Bonnie said:
Yes, there is a way, but ONLY one way--when Jesus' perfection and righteousness are credited to us by grace through faith in HIM. This is the ONLY way to be perfect in God's eyes this side of heaven.
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"“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.."
Jesus is the gate, isn't He.
So what does "strive" mean?
It's the effort we put forth to stop sinning by cooperating with the graces given us.
 
1Thess521 said:
When does it happen?

Please point out a living adult who is perfect in deed AND thought (as per Matthew 5)
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You mean "Born Again's" aren't perfect? That they no longer sin? My, my, how could that be? I guess they really weren't "Born Again" then, that they never really knew God.
 
Misfit said:
You mean "Born Again's" aren't perfect? That they no longer sin? My, my, how could that be? I guess they really weren't "Born Again" then, that they never really knew God.
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"Born Again's" aren't perfect? :
true:
how could that be?
God declared them perfect.

That they no longer sin?
False;
how could that be?
they have the Advocate

I guess they really weren't "Born Again" then, that they never really knew God.
False
If they the claimed they were perfect and never sin
Then the the Truth is not in them
and that means they were not born again.

Still waiting:
Please point out a living adult who is perfect in deed AND thought (as per Matthew 5)
 
1Thess521 said:
"Born Again's" aren't perfect? :
true:
how could that be?
God declared them perfect.

That they no longer sin?
False;
how could that be?
they have the Advocate

I guess they really weren't "Born Again" then, that they never really knew God.
False
If they the claimed they were perfect and never sin
Then the the Truth is not in them
and that means they were not born again.

Still waiting:
Please point out a living adult who is perfect in deed AND thought (as per Matthew 5)
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Great. Then "Born Again's" and orthodox Christians are on the same page. Now I never said that there are any perfect people out there, especially Christian believers. Christ is truly the Advocate for us, the sinner.
 
1Thess521 said:
"Born Again's" aren't perfect? :
true:
how could that be?
God declared them perfect.

That they no longer sin?
False;
how could that be?
they have the Advocate

I guess they really weren't "Born Again" then, that they never really knew God.
False
If they the claimed they were perfect and never sin
Then the the Truth is not in them
and that means they were not born again.

Still waiting:
Please point out a living adult who is perfect in deed AND thought (as per Matthew 5)
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So you're saying that God is declaring something that isn't true? And you don't see a problem with that?
 
pilgrim said:
So you're saying that God is declaring something that isn't true? And you don't see a problem with that?
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nope
I and Misfit both agree (post 93) there are no perfect people
It is your interpretation of Matthew 5:48 that is the problem.
You are in error on why Jesus said that.

Still waiting:
Please point out a living adult who is perfect in deed AND thought (as per Matthew 5)
 
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pilgrim said:
So you are saying that God enables us to continue sinning? And you don't have a problem with that?

"Go and sin no more."
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you said
""Clearly there must be a way to be perfect as our heaven Father is perfect, or Jesus wouldn't have commanded it.""

Still waiting:
Please point out a living adult who is perfect in deed AND thought (as per Matthew 5)
 
1Thess521 said:
you said
""Clearly there must be a way to be perfect as our heaven Father is perfect, or Jesus wouldn't have commanded it.""

Still waiting:
Please point out a living adult who is perfect in deed AND thought (as per Matthew 5)
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Why? Do you think it is impossible to overcome sin?
 
1Thess521 said:
define overcome
As in never to sin in deed and thought?
it is nearly impossible for a believer to never sin in deed and thought for their lifetime..
Please provide an example of a living adult who is perfect in deed AND thought (as per Matthew 5)
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No. I mean going forward. We are to "fight the good fight", are we not? And what is that fight? The battle between the flesh and the spirit. And to overcome the flesh we have to mortify it :

Romans 8: 12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons[f] of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
 
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