1Thess521
Well-known member
Then by all means please provide an example of a living someone who is done this
The Confiteor
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pilgrim
Well-known member
I don't know what people think. Do you?
I do know what Scripture says. Jesus offers the three evangelical counsels, or counsels of perfection, to the rich young man. These are chastity, poverty and obedience. Everyone who enters religious life takes vows of poverty, chastity and obedience (with the exception of poverty for clergy, as I understand) They are on the road to perfection, since these vows eliminate many of the world's distractions. This is the life that Jesus and Mary lived.
And yes, I KNOW there have been those who have broken their vows, just as there have been many married couples break their vows. God will deal with them personally. But this is the path that Jesus puts forward for those that desire it. While the laity can also achieve this state, it is much more difficult since they are in the world.
1Thess521
Well-known member
Yes; I do know that no believer is without a single sinful thought: (the context of Matthew 5)
following the context of Matthew 5:
Jesus was discussing the Commandments/ the Law,
The Law was given so that we would see our need for a Savior.
"I haven't committed adultery and I have not murdered anyone"
Jesus tells us that we are guilty of adultery if we have lusted; and guilty of murder if we have hated.
And goes on to say that we are to be perfect.
"Well if that is the standard: who can do that?"
No one.
That is the point: that is why we need to be saved.
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1Thess521
Well-known member
fighting the good fight and being perfect are different.
you said
""Clearly there must be a way to be perfect as our heaven Father is perfect, or Jesus wouldn't have commanded it.""
pilgrim
Well-known member
I am speaking of after justification.
pilgrim
Well-known member
One is the road, the other is the destination.
1Thess521
Well-known member
the point stands
no one who is justified in this life is without a single sinful thought: (the context of Matthew 5)
1Thess521
Well-known member
you said
""Clearly there must be a way to be perfect as our heaven Father is perfect, or Jesus wouldn't have commanded it.""
Who alive today has found the the way to be perfect in thought and deed?
pilgrim
Well-known member
Those who when they die go immediately to heaven.
Name One other than Mary. By the way they must be perfect according to you before they die otherwise they need to stop off in purgatory. Of course if they are wearing the right scapular they might avoid purgatory.
You still have not said what the word perfect meant to those hearing it in Jesus' day.
A new day
Super Member
who are "those" and what is the cause for them to "go immediately to heaven"?
Pilgrim has answered these type of question in - Pilgrim in post 75 says:
I wouldn't know because I can't prove it. But neither can you disprove it. I look to the lives of the saints. Many of them had extraordinary gifts given to them by God: gifts of bilocation, prophecy, visions, reading hearts,etc. I believe that most if not all reached perfection in their lives.
Matt 9:24
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
Post 109
Those who when they die go immediately to heaven.
Pilgrim offers no proof for these assumptions.
But a lot of these saints like to do self mortification which is not found in scripture:
saint John of the Cross: "The ignorance of some is extremely lamentable; they burden themselves with extraordinary penances and many other exercises, thinking these are sufficient to attain union with divine Wisdom. But such practices are insufficient if these souls do not diligently strive to deny their appetites. If they would attempt to devote only half of that energy to the renunciation of their desires, they would profit more in a month, than in years with all these other exercises... I venture to say that without this mortification, all that is done for the sake of advancement in perfection and in knowledge of God and of oneself is no more profitable than seed sown on uncultivated ground (that is, only producing weeds). Accordingly, darkness and coarseness will always be with a soul until its appetites are extinguished."
Saint Teresa of the Andes: I don't know what to do to get the priest to allow me to mortify myself. I have so many desires to fast, to wear hair shirts, since I see it is necessary for me to mortify not only my will, but also my body. My Jesus, give me permission to do penance. My Mother, inspire the priest to grant me permission."
Diary, Saint Faustina: "Interior mortifications take the first place, but besides this, we must practice exterior mortifications, strictly determined, so that all can practice them. These are: on three days a week, Wednesday, Friday and Saturday, there will be a strict fast. Each Friday, all the sisters – each one in her own cell – will take the discipline for the length of the recitation of Psalm 50 and all will do this at the same time; namely, three o’clock; and this will be offered for dying sinners. During the two great fasts, ember days and vigils, the food will consist of a piece of bread and some water, once a day."
Saint Alphonsus De Ligouri: "If we read the lives of the saints and see the works of penance that they performed, we shall be ashamed of the delicacy and of the reserve with which we chastise the flesh... Our pilgrimage on earth will not be of long duration: our home is eternity, where he who has practiced the greatest mortifications during life shall enjoy the greatest glory."
From Penance & Mortification, religious vocation
Other examples of this type of behaviour are listed in post 85. Where in scripture does it say that flagellation and mortification etc are necessary to be perfect?
A new day
Super Member
Thank you for the information Balshan, appreciated. 
I want to piggy back off of Balshan's post a little bit, and direct my question to @pilgrim
I want to provide something for thought. Lets just look at what Scripture itself is saying.
Scripture tells us that in NT times, there were Jews who were working as tax collector's for the hated Romans. It was common knowledge that the tax collectors cheated the people they collected from, they would collect more than required and keep the extra for themselves and thus, lived quite lavish lifestyles. The Pharisees saw tax collectors as sinners who needed to be shunned.
Now, Balshan brought up a previous post by Pilgrim who posted “I look to the lives of the saints”. (post 75)
Pilgrim, I want to turn your attention to Luke 18. Lets just look at the passages below and nothing else.
Luke 18:10-14
“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God.
Scripture paints the picture very bluntly in different passages, that the tax collectors were obviously sinners. In the above passages of Luke 18. Notice in the parable, that the pharisee lived a Godly life according to Jewish customs and laws, and yet Jesus said it was the tax collector who was justified, and NOT the pharisee.
What was the difference between the tax collector and the pharisee in regard to being justified before God?
Jesus also said in Luke 19: “Today salvation has come to this house,” after Zacchaeus said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”
Note that Jesus said that salvation had come to Zacchaeus. What did Zacchaeus do to receive salvation?
I want to piggy back off of Balshan's post a little bit, and direct my question to @pilgrim
I want to provide something for thought. Lets just look at what Scripture itself is saying.
Scripture tells us that in NT times, there were Jews who were working as tax collector's for the hated Romans. It was common knowledge that the tax collectors cheated the people they collected from, they would collect more than required and keep the extra for themselves and thus, lived quite lavish lifestyles. The Pharisees saw tax collectors as sinners who needed to be shunned.
Now, Balshan brought up a previous post by Pilgrim who posted “I look to the lives of the saints”. (post 75)
Pilgrim, I want to turn your attention to Luke 18. Lets just look at the passages below and nothing else.
Luke 18:10-14
“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God.
Scripture paints the picture very bluntly in different passages, that the tax collectors were obviously sinners. In the above passages of Luke 18. Notice in the parable, that the pharisee lived a Godly life according to Jewish customs and laws, and yet Jesus said it was the tax collector who was justified, and NOT the pharisee.
What was the difference between the tax collector and the pharisee in regard to being justified before God?
Jesus also said in Luke 19: “Today salvation has come to this house,” after Zacchaeus said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”
Note that Jesus said that salvation had come to Zacchaeus. What did Zacchaeus do to receive salvation?
pilgrim
Well-known member
How did Zacchaeus receive salvation before Jesus died on the Cross?
pilgrim
Well-known member
One was proud and one was humble.
Luke 1:
50 And his mercy is for those who fear him
from generation to generation.
51 He has shown strength with his arm;
he has scattered the proud in the thoughts of their hearts;
52 he has brought down the mighty from their thrones
and exalted those of humble estate;
pilgrim
Well-known member
God.
A new day
Super Member
Yes, He is God
And He has the authority to forgive sins, but what I wanted you to see, in the passages was that both tax collector's received salvation by faith.
take a look at these
Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven."
Matthew 9:5
Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk?'
Mark 2:5
When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."
Luke 5:20
When Jesus saw their faith, He said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven."
Mark 2:5-7
…5When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” 6But some of the scribes were sitting there and thinking in their hearts, 7“Why does this man speak like this? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”…
1Thess521
Well-known member
This answer is so easy....
Question--->How did Zacchaeus receive salvation before Jesus died on the Cross?
Answer----->the same way as all the OT saints; by faith in what God promised
follow along
So Jesus called Zacchaeus a son of Abraham.
Luke 19 :9 re: Zacchaeus
"Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. "
Galatians 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Paul's letter to Church in Rome
That the offspring of Abraham will receive the promise by FAITH!!!
Romans 4
13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith
........
23 The words “it was credited to him<Abraham>” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
in summary:
Paul's letter to Church in Rome
5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith,
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