The conundrum of faith and the Calvinist

Joe said:
To the Calvinist faith is a gift of God otherwise the claim is it is a work of man,
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I don't consider myself a Calvinist, just a believer. But I see some problems with your premises.

I think we all can agree that "faith is a gift of God".

Joe said:
and yet it takes a man to put faith to use, so it ends up being a work of man because it is the person's faith not God's and God does not believe for man.
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Wrong. It takes God to create a believing mind so His faith could flourish in man and we become His children.

Where do you think belief/faith came from, is it something man or God came up with originally? Here is a link to a 100 Bible verses supporting the claim that God uses belief/faith in order to make Himself known to believers only.

Joe said:
And faith takes a person's will to put it into effect, so man is actively involved in the mental act of the decision to repent and believe.
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Not if everything that leads to man's salvation originated in God, including our belief/faith, then salvation is purely a act of God, because everything that makes it occur and possible came from Him to begin with.

Joe said:
How do Calvinist reconcile this obvious issue within their thinking?

God bless
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A believer that understands the Bible can explain why they believe salvation is purely an act of God. See above.
 
I would say that as a stand-alone Pretext, that's a perfectly fine answer. But as a Theologian, that's not something I can do. I think that when there are multiple-choice answers, we should choose the answer which best fits with All Scripture...
I appreciate your answer we see scripture differently. Since God is not the author of confusion I don’t believe there are multiple choices in scripture. This is not to insult or belittle you. I truly believe when we see multiple choices in scripture it is because 1. Satan is creating confusion 2. We haven’t matured enough spiritually to see or accept that God is never divided in His message to us.
 
Leatherneck0311 said:
Howie, how do Calvinist explain away this scripture that Jesus taught ?
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There's no need to "explain away" anything.

Leatherneck0311 said:
Rev 22:17 - And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Looks like an invitation from Jesus to the whosoever to come to Him.
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Why do you ASSUME it's an "invitation".

And why do you think we're obligated to accept, or "explain away", your ASSUMPTION?

Leatherneck0311 said:
It is for those that hear, those who are thirsty, and the whosoevers takes the water of life freely. The invitation from God is to come.
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There is no mention of "invitation" in the passage.
 
Leatherneck0311 said:
Yet not one word on what Jesus taught in Revelation 22:17 ? I understand why though it is yet another invitation from God to “whosoever” thirst let him come and “whosoever” will let him take of the water of life freely.
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"whosoever thirsts" is NOT "universal". It explicitly EXCLUDES anyone who doesn't "thirst".

And just as a matter of curiousity, do you think "thirsting" is something we "choose" to do with our "free will"?

And likewise, "whosoever will" explicitly EXCLUDES everyone who "won't".
 
sundance said:
Just pointing out that what you said is contrary to what Jesus actually said.
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The post to which I responded wasn't addressed to me, so that's not true.

So what is it that was said that you believe is contrary to what Jesus actually said?
 
Howie said:
The post to which I responded wasn't addressed to me, so that's not true.

So what is it that was said that you believe is contrary to what Jesus actually said?
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I thought you agreed?

Do you believe that faith saves or not? Jesus said it did.
 
Leatherneck0311 said:
Not what Jesus taught of course folks can put up road bl

I appreciate your answer we see scripture differently. Since God is not the author of confusion I don’t believe there are multiple choices in scripture. This is not to insult or belittle you. I truly believe when we see multiple choices in scripture it is because 1. Satan is creating confusion 2. We haven’t matured enough spiritually to see or accept that God is never divided in His message to us.
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I agree, God is not the Author of Confusion. So, we are the Author the Confusion; or if you insist, the devil. Two of the options are wrong and one is right; or all three options are wrong. There are no multiple-choices in 'Scripture', so you are correct. I suppose what I am saying is the position that Faith is a Work, is one of the wrong choices. Saint Paul described Works in two Categories; the Bad 'Not by Works' and the Good 'Works we were Created for'. I say that the Bad 'Not by Works' Category has a true Meaning separate from the other Good Category of Works. 'Not by Works' HAS to be true in some sense; it's that sense I am talking about...

So when 'Not by Works' has a significant Meaning, I think we have to eliminate 'Faith is a Work' from the three choices; and start working to eliminate a second possible Meaning...
 
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sundance said:
Your faith?

Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

I believe Jesus.
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We see elsewhere (e.g. Eph. 2:8-10) that we are saved by grace, through faith and that not of ourselves. Faith is the means through which God saves us; and, as the Bible says, faith is a gift from God that not everyone has.
 
ReverendRV said:
I agree, God is not the Author of Confusion. So, we are the Author the Confusion; or if you insist, the devil. Two of the options are wrong and one is right; or all three options are wrong. There are no multiple-choices in 'Scripture', so you are correct. I suppose what I am saying is the position that Faith is a Work, is one of the wrong choices. Saint Paul described Works in two Categories; the Bad 'Not by Works' and the Good 'Works we were Created for'. I say that the Bad 'Not by Works' Category has a true Meaning separate from the other Good Category of Works. 'Not by Works' HAS to be true in some sense; it's that sense I am talking about...

So when 'Not by Works' has a significant Meaning, I think we have to eliminate 'Faith is a Work' from the three choices; and start working to eliminate a second possible Meaning...
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Further to this: faith is indeed not a work of the flesh; however, if it were generated by sinful man, then it would be a work of the flesh.
 
ReverendRV said:
I agree, God is not the Author of Confusion. So, we are the Author the Confusion; or if you insist, the devil. Two of the options are wrong and one is right; or all three options are wrong. There are no multiple-choices in 'Scripture', so you are correct. I suppose what I am saying is that the position Faith is a Work, is one of the wrong choices. Saint Paul described Works in two Categories; 'Not by Works' and 'Works we were Creater for'. I say that the Bad 'Not by Works' Category has a true Meaning separate from the other Good Category of Works. 'Not by Works' has to be true in some sense; it's that sense I am talking about...

So when 'Not by Works' has a significant Meaning, I think we have to eliminate 'Faith is a Work' from the three choices; and start working to eliminate a second possible Meaning...
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I am missing something. 1. Salvation is Not of works lest any man should boast is true because scripture says exactly that . The work of God is to believe in Jesus is true because Jesus taught it. I don’t see either or because both are true. I think the problem is folks see either or making both truths contradict each other, and that IMO is personal preference based on how we perceive God. Why do we need to eliminate work of faith when that is exactly what Jesus taught that we have to do based on Him saying the work of God is to believe in Him ?
 
David1701 said:
We see elsewhere (e.g. Eph. 2:8-10) that we are saved by grace, through faith and that not of ourselves. Faith is the means through which God saves us; and, as the Bible says, faith is a gift from God that not everyone has.
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Salvation is not of your self

not faith

But they commonly misintepret this text, and restrict the word ‘gift’ to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating his earlier statement in other words. He does not mean that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God … " (from, Calvin’s Commentaries 4:145

what is not of works

finally

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
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Leatherneck0311 said:
I am missing something. 1. Salvation is Not of works lest any man should boast is true because scripture says exactly that . The work of God is to believe in Jesus is true because Jesus taught it. I don’t see either or because both are true. I think the problem is folks see either or making both truths contradict each other, and that IMO is personal preference based on how we perceive God. Why do we need to eliminate work of faith when that is exactly what Jesus taught that we have to do based on Him saying the work of God is to believe in Him ?
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The "work" that God requires that we believe in him; however, responsibility is not ability.
 
Leatherneck0311 said:
I am missing something. 1. Salvation is Not of works lest any man should boast is true because scripture says exactly that . The work of God is to believe in Jesus is true because Jesus taught it. I don’t see either or because both are true. I think the problem is folks see either or making both truths contradict each other, and that IMO is personal preference based on how we perceive God. Why do we need to eliminate work of faith when that is exactly what Jesus taught that we have to do based on Him saying the work of God is to believe in Him ?
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I would say Jesus said the Work God 'requires' is to believe in the one he sent. This could mean that Faith is a Work, or it could mean that through Jesus the Works of the Law are Mete...
 
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