"The" Cosmological Argument

Eightcrackers said:
There's always "ignore".
Click to expand...
Yeah, I know. I actually had Steve and some others on ignore, but then when I started a thread I took everybody off the list in case they had something to say, and I haven't gotten around to building the ignore list back up again. I guess I can start here.
 
Komodo said:
Yeah, I know. I actually had Steve and some others on ignore, but then when I started a thread I took everybody off the list in case they had something to say, and I haven't gotten around to building the ignore list back up again. I guess I can start here.
Click to expand...
When someone disregards not only what I have said, but what they have said... yeah.
No point.
 
Lucian said:
I'm still puzzled as to why you find that 'sufficiently unlikely'. You accept Christians here aren't very good at rationally defending their religion, of the small number that seem to have a sincere interest in doing so. Why then would you assume that they would have successfully identified and represented to you the best that Christian natural theology has to offer? It could be fifty years, and the assumption would still be bizarre. Perhaps if this were a community of Christian philosophers of religion, you would have a point; but it's about as far from that as one can conceive.

It clearly isn't permissible to infer to the dialectical inadequacies of Christianity on account of the statements of people here, and perhaps even anywhere of an equivalent community. The only safe approach is to do the reading yourself. Can you say you've done so?
Click to expand...
Why don't you point ThePixie (and me) to Christian philosophers who can present a more cogent argument for the existence of God? Or better yet, why don't you present one?
 
SteveB said:
Then you should be able to provide a list of these scholars.
And considering that Jesus said,

Mat 7:13-14 WEB 13 “Enter in by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter in by it. 14 How narrow is the gate and the way is restricted that leads to life! There are few who find it.

And


Mat 13:18-23 WEB 18 “Hear, then, the parable of the farmer. 19 When anyone hears the word of the Kingdom and doesn’t understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away that which has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown by the roadside. 20 What was sown on the rocky places, this is he who hears the word and immediately with joy receives it; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while. When oppression or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 What was sown among the thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of this age and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 What was sown on the good ground, this is he who hears the word and understands it, who most certainly bears fruit and produces, some one hundred times as much, some sixty, and some thirty.”

He tells us that only a few people will follow Jesus to the end, and 3 out of 4 will not.... I'm not bothered by the "consensus."
That you let others define what you are going to choose for yourself is what I find sad.
Click to expand...

also the verse that says, "let not many of you be teachers". i like the verses you have posted here though also.

the reason not be many teachers is maybe akin to the admonition to be quick to hear and slow to speak. not everyone knows real truth. or not all of it.

we have ideas. alot of good ideas... about what the truth is or might be.

not all as great, not all as true always (i suspect/believe). the Spirit/spirit of things? (trying to word this for atheists and others) leads into all truth. our conscience.... life leads into all truth.

if we let it.... if we become aware enough, conscious enough.... awake enough ..... begin to see ..... with our heart.... our soul ..... as a Child................
 
Last edited:
Caroljeen said:
Why don't you point ThePixie (and me) to Christian philosophers who can present a more cogent argument for the existence of God? Or better yet, why don't you present one?
Click to expand...

i would suggest you study into the History of Christianity. and other religions while you're at it. and ask God /The Spirit what is the truth, what really is the Truth? and not just look for it in Christianity. Spiritual beliefs seem to be a Universal concept to the Human race.

what if we are all missing pieces of the Truth in ways? but because of the nature of humanity in general (imperfected/flawed) we do not all see the flaws in each of our Religions. though many do and will. why? perhaps because they are learning/ and listening enough with their hearts/ souls/ spirit.

Edit per mod
Universalism is a banned topic at CARM.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
HealTheLand said:
i would suggest you study into the History of Christianity. and other religions while you're at it. and ask God /The Spirit what is the truth, what really is the Truth? and not just look for it in Christianity. Spiritual beliefs seem to be a Universal concept to the Human race.

what if we are all missing pieces of the Truth in ways? but because of the nature of humanity in general (imperfected/flawed) we do not all see the flaws in each of our Religions. though many do and will. why? perhaps because they are learning/ and listening enough with their hearts/ souls/ spirit.
Click to expand...

... and/ or with logic and reason - and see where things just don't make sense. because things are missing, things that could be here with us - if we sought them, and asked for them (seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened to you). don't seek - but just accept - and we only receive so much... unless we are seeking God/ The Spirit - another kind of seeking. both are important maybe. the mind is a part of us, as is spirit.
 
Last edited:
@Caroljeen

Thomas Aquinas was a decent natural theologian, if you can stand reading a Catholic. Ed Feser, who is also Catholic, has developed arguments based on Aquinas' writings.

Other contemporary writers include Plantinga, Swinburne, and Craig. The latter is the editor of the enormous and rather technical *Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology*, which I would definitely suggest considering if this is an area you are interested in.

I second the recommendation to look into the intellectual history of Christianity, too. There are lots of Christian thinkers with interesting ideas that just never come up on this forum. Boethius and Duns Scotus are a couple that come to mind. Augustine is probably underrated here too.

I hope some of this was helpful.
 
Torin said:
The latter is the editor of the enormous and rather technical *Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology*, which I would definitely suggest considering if this is an area you are interested in.
Click to expand...
I've been meaning to get that for about 10 years.
 
Torin said:
@Caroljeen

Thomas Aquinas was a decent natural theologian, if you can stand reading a Catholic. Ed Feser, who is also Catholic, has developed arguments based on Aquinas' writings.

Other contemporary writers include Plantinga, Swinburne, and Craig. The latter is the editor of the enormous and rather technical *Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology*, which I would definitely suggest considering if this is an area you are interested in.

I second the recommendation to look into the intellectual history of Christianity, too. There are lots of Christian thinkers with interesting ideas that just never come up on this forum. Boethius and Duns Scotus are a couple that come to mind. Augustine is probably underrated here too.

I hope some of this was helpful.
Click to expand...
Thank you!!
 
HealTheLand said:
also the verse that says, "let not many of you be teachers". i like the verses you have posted here though also.

the reason not be many teachers is maybe akin to the admonition to be quick to hear and slow to speak. not everyone knows real truth. or not all of it.

we have ideas. alot of good ideas... about what the truth is or might be.

not all as great, not all as true always (i suspect/believe). the Spirit/spirit of things? (trying to word this for atheists and others) leads into all truth. our conscience.... life leads into all truth.

if we let it.... if we become aware enough, conscious enough.... awake enough ..... begin to see ..... with our heart.... our soul ..... as a Child................
Click to expand...
Why not call "the Spirit/spirit of things" what Jesus called it?

John 14
15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
16“And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you.
21“He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me; and he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him, and will disclose Myself to him.”
23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him. 24“He who does not love Me does not keep My words;

Note the stipulation for being given the Spirit of truth: Keep the word spoken by Jesus while He preached His gospel.
Those who do not keep His word, that is those who commit sin, are not given the Spirit of truth;
nor do they love Jesus;
nor will they be loved by God;
nor will they be loved by Jesus;
nor will God and Jesus make their abode with them.

So much packed into but six verses. "He who has ears, let him hear."
 
HealTheLand said:
also the verse that says, "let not many of you be teachers". i like the verses you have posted here though also.

the reason not be many teachers is maybe akin to the admonition to be quick to hear and slow to speak. not everyone knows real truth. or not all of it.

we have ideas. alot of good ideas... about what the truth is or might be.

not all as great, not all as true always (i suspect/believe). the Spirit/spirit of things? (trying to word this for atheists and others) leads into all truth. our conscience.... life leads into all truth.

if we let it.... if we become aware enough, conscious enough.... awake enough ..... begin to see ..... with our heart.... our soul ..... as a Child................
Click to expand...
Ok.

And..... your point is?
 
SteveB said:
It's only vague to people who don't read.
Click to expand...
I read it. It is vague. And this is an empty ad hominin - further proving my point that you are intentionally vague because you have no concrete answer.
SteveB said:
Jesus gave us plenty to do. As do the apostles, Peter, John, Jude, Paul, James, etc...
Click to expand...
OK
SteveB said:
So, perhaps the problem here isn't that it's actually vague. Rather that you only treated the bible as a novel or other story.
Click to expand...
The problem is you cannot list the specific actions we need to take to do what Jesus said.

Your equivocation is transparent.
SteveB said:
\Living inside one's own mind without actually experiencing life outside results in delusions and a lack of real world knowledge and experience.
Click to expand...
I go outside all the time. Still have not seen God or Jesus.
 
Lighthearted Atheist said:
I read it. It is vague. And this is an empty ad hominin - further proving my point that you are intentionally vague because you have no concrete answer.

OK

The problem is you cannot list the specific actions we need to take to do what Jesus said.

Your equivocation is transparent.

I go outside all the time. Still have not seen God or Jesus.
Click to expand...
Wow.

Lookie who the cat drug in.

This is incredibly simple.

So simple a child can get it. In fact, Jesus made it really clear...

Unless you become as a little child you shall by no means enter the Kingdom of God.

So, you're just wasting your time arguing about it.

Metanoia and place your trust in Jesus.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top