The culture of 19th century Digging and...

Markk

Super Member
... the BoM, Joseph Smith, and others.

Here is a famous painting from the artist John Quidor..."The Money Diggers."


Throughout his life, or more specifically for his early twenty's up until the church was established Joseph was known as "Joe the Money Digger." Money digging was not just about the digging for money or treasures, but about folk magic and chants, spells and both good and evil guardian spirits that watched over the sought after treasures.

There were different types of "tools" used for Money digging, such as divining rods, seer stones, talismans, occult signs, witch hazel stakes, and other items. Looking closely at the painting, in the center just above the hole, you can see a divining rod.

Money diggers were called different names such as... Seer's, Glass lookers, water witching, dowsers...some of these went so far as to offer animal sacrifices to appease the guardians that watches over the treasures.

From my reading, there seems to be three primary types of "money diggers," in regard to motive. The first would be a true believer, on that honestly believed in the craft. many writers, including Ben Franklin stated that there were many good citizens involved in money digging. The second, would be the confidence money digger, a con man, who took advantage of folks by selling his services for gain. Then there seems to be a third, again from my recent reading, and that is one that combines the first two together and is basically a person that believes in the craft, yet also clear cons folks for their services at the same time.

So far, in regard to Joseph Smith I go back and forth in my belief as to whether he actually believed in the craft or whether he was just a straight confidence man. I lean strongly at this point that he did indeed believe in all that went with it, at in the beginning of learning his trade, and how it blended into the Book of Mormon story.
 
... the BoM, Joseph Smith, and others.

Here is a famous painting from the artist John Quidor..."The Money Diggers."


Throughout his life, or more specifically for his early twenty's up until the church was established Joseph was known as "Joe the Money Digger." Money digging was not just about the digging for money or treasures, but about folk magic and chants, spells and both good and evil guardian spirits that watched over the sought after treasures.

No source.

There were different types of "tools" used for Money digging, such as divining rods, seer stones, talismans, occult signs, witch hazel stakes, and other items. Looking closely at the painting, in the center just above the hole, you can see a divining rod.

True.
Money diggers were called different names such as... Seer's, Glass lookers, water witching, dowsers...some of these went so far as to offer animal sacrifices to appease the guardians that watches over the treasures.
True.


From my reading, there seems to be three primary types of "money diggers," in regard to motive. The first would be a true believer, on that honestly believed in the craft. many writers, including Ben Franklin stated that there were many good citizens involved in money digging. The second, would be the confidence money digger, a con man, who took advantage of folks by selling his services for gain. Then there seems to be a third, again from my recent reading, and that is one that combines the first two together and is basically a person that believes in the craft, yet also clear cons folks for their services at the same time.

True.

So far, in regard to Joseph Smith I go back and forth in my belief as to whether he actually believed in the craft or whether he was just a straight confidence man. I lean strongly at this point that he did indeed believe in all that went with it, at in the beginning of learning his trade, and how it blended into the Book of Mormon story.
Thx for your own opinion and speculation...
 
In speaking of the stone, Martin Harris noted in an 1859 Interview:

..."There was a company there in that neighborhood, who were digging for money supposed to have been hidden by the ancients. Of this company were old Mr Stowel—I think his name was Josiah—also old Mr. Beman, also Samuel Lawrence, George Proper, Joseph Smith, jr., and his father, and his brother Hiram Smith. They dug for money in Palmyra, Manchester, also in Pennsylvania, and other places ..."

In the same interview, Martin said:

... "When Joseph found this stone, there was a company digging in Harmony, Pa., and they took Joseph to look in the stone for them, and he did so for a while, and then he told them the enchantment was so strong that he could not see, and they gave it up. There he became acquainted with his future wife..."

This is in reference to the mine adventure in which Joseph was hired to find with his seer stone. Martin reported that Joseph could not find the mine, because "enchantment" was too strong.

In the money digging lore, folks magic played a key role. Sought after treasures were very often guarded by a spirit or guardian, in which the seer, would have to "deal" with in securing the "treasure."
 
In speaking of the stone, Martin Harris noted in an 1859 Interview:

..."There was a company there in that neighborhood, who were digging for money supposed to have been hidden by the ancients. Of this company were old Mr Stowel—I think his name was Josiah—also old Mr. Beman, also Samuel Lawrence, George Proper, Joseph Smith, jr., and his father, and his brother Hiram Smith. They dug for money in Palmyra, Manchester, also in Pennsylvania, and other places ..."

In the same interview, Martin said:

... "When Joseph found this stone, there was a company digging in Harmony, Pa., and they took Joseph to look in the stone for them, and he did so for a while, and then he told them the enchantment was so strong that he could not see, and they gave it up. There he became acquainted with his future wife..."

This is in reference to the mine adventure in which Joseph was hired to find with his seer stone. Martin reported that Joseph could not find the mine, because "enchantment" was too strong.

In the money digging lore, folks magic played a key role. Sought after treasures were very often guarded by a spirit or guardian, in which the seer, would have to "deal" with in securing the "treasure."
Oh my! so now we are to believe that JS found the gold plates with the seer stone and not the appearance of Moroni who showed JS where they were in a vision... nice Markk! Accoridng to JS, this is not how it happened, read below.

Mr. Harris says: "Joseph Smith, jr., found at Palmyra, N.Y., on the 22d day of September, 1827, the plates of gold upon which was recorded in Arabic, Chaldaic, Syriac, and Egyptian, the Book of Life, or the Book of Mormon. I was not with him at the time, but I had a revelation the summer before, that God had a work for me to do. These plates were found at the north point of a hill two miles north of Manchester village. Joseph had a stone which was dug from the well of Mason Chase, twenty-four feet from the surface. In this stone he could see many things to my certain knowledge. It was by means of this stone he first discovered these plates.



Joseph Smith History:
42 Again, he told me, that when I got those plates of which he had spoken—for the time that they should be obtained was not yet fulfilled—I should not show them to any person; neither the breastplate with the Urim and Thummim; only to those to whom I should be commanded to show them; if I did I should be destroyed. While he was conversing with me about the plates, the vision was opened to my mind that I could see the place where the plates were deposited, and that so clearly and distinctly that I knew the place again when I visited it.
 
In speaking of the stone, Martin Harris noted in an 1859 Interview:

..."There was a company there in that neighborhood, who were digging for money supposed to have been hidden by the ancients. Of this company were old Mr Stowel—I think his name was Josiah—also old Mr. Beman, also Samuel Lawrence, George Proper, Joseph Smith, jr., and his father, and his brother Hiram Smith. They dug for money in Palmyra, Manchester, also in Pennsylvania, and other places ..."

In the same interview, Martin said:

... "When Joseph found this stone, there was a company digging in Harmony, Pa., and they took Joseph to look in the stone for them, and he did so for a while, and then he told them the enchantment was so strong that he could not see, and they gave it up. There he became acquainted with his future wife..."

This is in reference to the mine adventure in which Joseph was hired to find with his seer stone. Martin reported that Joseph could not find the mine, because "enchantment" was too strong.

In the money digging lore, folks magic played a key role. Sought after treasures were very often guarded by a spirit or guardian, in which the seer, would have to "deal" with in securing the "treasure."
The problem with this good buddy is that Martin Harris did not show up until after JS had the plates and he was already married to Emma.
So again you are using Martin Harris as a second hand account, he was never there when JS met Stowel, Beman, Samuel Lawrence or Proper. What I have asked you for over and over is first hand accounts... please focus... chuckle.
 
This also is contradictory Markk, why would JS tell Harris that he wished to show the plates to JS when told he should never reveal the plates until the time the Lord would show them to 3 witnesses.

"These plates were usually kept in a cherry box made for that purpose, in the possession of Joseph and myself. The plates were kept from the sight of the world, and no one, save Oliver Cowdrey, myself, Joseph Smith, jr., and David Whitmer, ever saw them. Before the Lord showed the plates to me, Joseph wished me to see them. But I refused, unless the Lord should do it. At one time, before the Lord showed them to me, Joseph said I should see them. I asked him, why he would break the commands of the Lord! He said, you have done so much I am afraid you will not believe unless you see them. I replied, 'Joseph, I know all about it. The Lord has showed to me ten times more about it than you know.' "—Here we inquired of Mr. Harris—How did the Lord show you these things! He replied, "I am forbidden to say anything how the Lord showed them to me, except that by the power of God I have seen them." Mr. Harris continues: "I hefted the plates many times, and should think they weighed forty or fifty pounds.

Same source you used.

Jospeh Smith History and his account of the plates.

42 Again, he told me, that when I got those plates of which he had spoken—for the time that they should be obtained was not yet fulfilled—I should not show them to any person; neither the breastplate with the Urim and Thummim; only to those to whom I should be commanded to show them; if I did I should be destroyed.

Seems Harris and JS disagree quite a bit. hmmm
 
Oh my! so now we are to believe that JS found the gold plates with the seer stone and not the appearance of Moroni who showed JS where they were in a vision... nice Markk! Accoridng to JS, this is not how it happened, read below.
Ralf, focus, what are you talking about? I referenced the account with the silver mine and the agreement. But we will get into Joseph's account of the Nephi visiting him.

But the thread is about the folk magic involved in Jospeh's Money digging, and here Martin spoke of such. Joseph told them to stop digging because the enchant was too strong. Please stay on topic.
The problem with this good buddy is that Martin Harris did not show up until after JS had the plates and he was already married to Emma.
So again you are using Martin Harris as a second hand account, he was never there when JS met Stowel, Beman, Samuel Lawrence or Proper. What I have asked you for over and over is first hand accounts... please focus... chuckle.

This is a reliable source...and I plan to get into much more of Joseph's magic. If you want to throw out all but fist hand accounts, start with the first vision.
 
This also is contradictory Markk, why would JS tell Harris that he wished to show the plates to JS when told he should never reveal the plates until the time the Lord would show them to 3 witnesses.

"These plates were usually kept in a cherry box made for that purpose, in the possession of Joseph and myself. The plates were kept from the sight of the world, and no one, save Oliver Cowdrey, myself, Joseph Smith, jr., and David Whitmer, ever saw them. Before the Lord showed the plates to me, Joseph wished me to see them. But I refused, unless the Lord should do it. At one time, before the Lord showed them to me, Joseph said I should see them. I asked him, why he would break the commands of the Lord! He said, you have done so much I am afraid you will not believe unless you see them. I replied, 'Joseph, I know all about it. The Lord has showed to me ten times more about it than you know.' "—Here we inquired of Mr. Harris—How did the Lord show you these things! He replied, "I am forbidden to say anything how the Lord showed them to me, except that by the power of God I have seen them." Mr. Harris continues: "I hefted the plates many times, and should think they weighed forty or fifty pounds.

Same source you used.

Jospeh Smith History and his account of the plates.

42 Again, he told me, that when I got those plates of which he had spoken—for the time that they should be obtained was not yet fulfilled—I should not show them to any person; neither the breastplate with the Urim and Thummim; only to those to whom I should be commanded to show them; if I did I should be destroyed.

Seems Harris and JS disagree quite a bit. hmmm
What does this have to do with what i wrote?
 
Slippery Treasures and Enchantments:

One consistent theme is early American Money Digging is one of slippery treasures and excuses for not finding treasures. It is obvious that treasures were never actually found by the use of a Seer Stone, or other instruments of the trade. So, in order to keep the ruse alive, often the Seer would sell excuses to the marks or gulls. In Joseph's case he would often use such examples in his money digging.

..."a Mr. Bacon had buried money, that he and prisoner had been in search of it; that prisoner said that it was on a certain Root of a stump 5 feet from surface of the earth, and with it would be found a tail feather that said Stowel and prisoner thereupon commenced digging, found a tail feather, but money was gone, that he supposed that money moved down... ." Albert Neely

In the silver mine digs... Joseph is reported to have stopped the did because the enchantment was too strong...

..."Their digging in several places was in compliance with peeper Smith's revelations, who would attend with his peep-stone in his hat, and his hat drawn over his face, and would tell them how deep they would have to go; but when they would find no trace of the chest of money, he would peep again, and weep like a child, and tell them the enchantment had removed it on account of some sin or thoughtless word; finally the enchantment became so strong that he could not see, and so the business was abandoned. Smith could weep and shed tears in abundance at any time, if he chose... ." Amboy Journal
 
Ralf, focus, what are you talking about? I referenced the account with the silver mine and the agreement. But we will get into Joseph's account of the Nephi visiting him.

But the thread is about the folk magic involved in Jospeh's Money digging, and here Martin spoke of such. Joseph told them to stop digging because the enchant was too strong. Please stay on topic.


This is a reliable source...and I plan to get into much more of Joseph's magic. If you want to throw out all but fist hand accounts, start with the first vision.
First Vision? why now, make it another topic, quit moving the goal post dude. Topic is Digging, etc.
 
Huh...I was talking about money digging and did not mention the plates. Focus.
But there was a claim by Cowdrey that JS used the seer stone to find the plates as in finding gold also... I'm on topic and you are not focused as noted. You're all over the place, calm down, have a beer and chill out Markk...or what ever you smoke.
 
Slippery Treasures and Enchantments:

One consistent theme is early American Money Digging is one of slippery treasures and excuses for not finding treasures. It is obvious that treasures were never actually found by the use of a Seer Stone, or other instruments of the trade. So, in order to keep the ruse alive, often the Seer would sell excuses to the marks or gulls. In Joseph's case he would often use such examples in his money digging.

Pat attention, first of all no source and again we are looking for first hand accounts... nice try!

..."a Mr. Bacon had buried money, that he and prisoner had been in search of it; that prisoner said that it was on a certain Root of a stump 5 feet from surface of the earth, and with it would be found a tail feather that said Stowel and prisoner thereupon commenced digging, found a tail feather, but money was gone, that he supposed that money moved down... ." Albert Neely

First hand accounts only Markk... Did Albert Neely have that conversation with both parties and if so where is the evidence this was not passed down to him or made up... again a big failure on your part to listen to my expressed wishes of only first hand accounts. Totally embarrassing for you again....

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/p...ntry-20-march-1826-state-of-new-york-v-js-a/1
In the silver mine digs... Joseph is reported to have stopped the did because the enchantment was too strong...

Reported? first hand accounts Markk or don't bother to copy and paste, where is the source for this again I ask...



..."Their digging in several places was in compliance with peeper Smith's revelations, who would attend with his peep-stone in his hat, and his hat drawn over his face, and would tell them how deep they would have to go; but when they would find no trace of the chest of money, he would peep again, and weep like a child, and tell them the enchantment had removed it on account of some sin or thoughtless word; finally the enchantment became so strong that he could not see, and so the business was abandoned. Smith could weep and shed tears in abundance at any time, if he chose... ." Amboy Journal
Chuckle, Amboy Journal, not a first hand account and obviously a anti-mormon Journal...

I wish to correct a misunderstanding conveyed by a recent article in DIALOGUE. The discussion by Marvin S. Hill, "The First Vision Controversy, A Critical and Reconciliation" (Summer 1982), refers to a claim by anti-Mormons that Joseph Smith sought membership in the Methodist Church in 1828, contrary to instructions he reportedly received in the First Vision. This is incorrect. There is no evidence to support the argument that Joseph Smith ever seriously considered joining the Methodist Church. The source for this anti-Mormon claim is the Amboy Journal (30 April and 11 June 1879), which contains statements by Joseph and Hiel Lewis, sons of the Rev. Nathaniel Lewis. If we assume that these newspaper stories are reasonably accurate (they were made fifty-one years after the fact by individuals extremely hostile to the Church)

 
First Vision? why now, make it another topic, quit moving the goal post dude. Topic is Digging, etc.
Focus, you were constantly disregarding evidence that is not firsthand (LOL even though you often quote such examples). My response, and point, was in regard to of the five different or so accounts, there is only one in his handwriting...only one original handwritten firsthand account exists, which differs from later accounts.

I am merely pointing to your hypocrisy here.
 
But there was a claim by Cowdrey that JS used the seer stone to find the plates as in finding gold also... I'm on topic and you are not focused as noted. You're all over the place, calm down, have a beer and chill out Markk...or what ever you smoke.
LOL...you are getting into faith crisis mode, defcon 3...but back to the context of the mine, and the accounts of his treasures slipping away and spiritual enchantments that hindered finding the treasures.

I will get to the Gold Plates in due time.
 
One consistent theme is early American Money Digging is one of slippery treasures and excuses for not finding treasures. It is obvious that treasures were never actually found by the use of a Seer Stone, or other instruments of the trade. So, in order to keep the ruse alive, often the Seer would sell excuses to the marks or gulls. In Joseph's case he would often use such examples in his money digging.
Pat attention, first of all no source and again we are looking for first hand accounts... nice try!
patience...we will be going deep into this.
First hand accounts only Markk... Did Albert Neely have that conversation with both parties and if so where is the evidence this was not passed down to him or made up... again a big failure on your part to listen to my expressed wishes of only first hand accounts. Totally embarrassing for you again....
It is in the copy of the court docket page...under sworn testimony... People of State of New York, vs. Joseph Smith.Link Here


Chuckle, Amboy Journal, not a first hand account and obviously a anti-mormon Journal...

I wish to correct a misunderstanding conveyed by a recent article in DIALOGUE. The discussion by Marvin S. Hill, "The First Vision Controversy, A Critical and Reconciliation" (Summer 1982), refers to a claim by anti-Mormons that Joseph Smith sought membership in the Methodist Church in 1828, contrary to instructions he reportedly received in the First Vision. This is incorrect. There is no evidence to support the argument that Joseph Smith ever seriously considered joining the Methodist Church. The source for this anti-Mormon claim is the Amboy Journal (30 April and 11 June 1879), which contains statements by Joseph and Hiel Lewis, sons of the Rev. Nathaniel Lewis. If we assume that these newspaper stories are reasonably accurate (they were made fifty-one years after the fact by individuals extremely hostile to the Church)

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V16N01_6.pdf
LOL...so Marvin Hill is a firsthand witness to all this, almost 200 years after the fact. Not to mention I am talking about money digging and you source is talking about Joseph and the methodist church. This all lend to you just doing a google search and then pasting something you did not even read or understand.

Ralf the church teaches that Joseph used a stone in his hat to translate the BoM. It also teaches he used a stone in his hat to locate buried things. So, all this is consistent, whether 1, or 100 hand witness.

Carry on.
 
patience...we will be going deep into this.

When?

It is in the copy of the court docket page...under sworn testimony... People of State of New York, vs. Joseph Smith.Link Here



LOL...so Marvin Hill is a firsthand witness to all this, almost 200 years after the fact. Not to mention I am talking about money digging and you source is talking about Joseph and the methodist church. This all lend to you just doing a google search and then pasting something you did not even read or understand.

Ralf the church teaches that Joseph used a stone in his hat to translate the BoM. It also teaches he used a stone in his hat to locate buried things. So, all this is consistent, whether 1, or 100 hand witness.

Carry on.
Money digging Markk, the topic is Money Digging... you have run out of sources, opinions and wittinesses..
Your failure is noted and your attempts to prove anything with first hand accounts is obviously noted by all...



 
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