The culture of 19th century Digging and...

Huh...I was talking about money digging and did not mention the plates. Focus.
Yes I know...

Richard7 said:
The problem with this good buddy is that Martin Harris did not show up until after JS had the plates and he was already married to Emma.
So again you are using Martin Harris as a second hand account, he was never there when JS met Stowel, Beman, Samuel Lawrence or Proper. What I have asked you for over and over is first hand accounts... please focus... chuckle.

Interesting you never will engage in those things I bring to your attention... very unusual my frined, but then again when you can only use David Whitmere as your best source, well that is so sorrowful...
 
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LOL...you are getting into faith crisis mode, defcon 3...but back to the context of the mine, and the accounts of his treasures slipping away and spiritual enchantments that hindered finding the treasures.

I will get to the Gold Plates in due time.
Waiting...
 
When?


Money digging Markk, the topic is Money Digging... you have run out of sources, opinions and wittinesses..
Your failure is noted and your attempts to prove anything with first hand accounts is obviously noted by all...
Ralf, we have just scratched the surface…the first step, and we are almost there in your admitting you have no problem with Joseph using the hat, is to admit the church teaches he used the seer stone in the hat. Such as here on their website..they even show a picture of one of his stones, and Joseph looking into his hat.

 
Ralf, we have just scratched the surface…the first step, and we are almost there in your admitting you have no problem with Joseph using the hat, is to admit the church teaches he used the seer stone in the hat. Such as here on their website..they even show a picture of one of his stones, and Joseph looking into his hat.

It's obvious your stretching Markk, the hat is immaterial and I stated I doubt it was even used. Most of the information talking or writing about the seer stone comes from your only witness, David Whitmer, who as we all know by now was first a enemy to JS, hated him, thought he was a fallen prophet and tried to get the other apostles to appoint him as the President of the Church. If you would take the time to research David you would soon find out like most of us have already; he was a liar, quit religion for several years and did many other unseemly deeds to ever begin to be trustworthy.

For example good buddy, David claimed the Urim and Thummim was never returned after the 116 pages were lost and once mentioned the gold plates were also not returned.... then he claims to have seen them when they were being translated and yet Joesph Smith states the following:

"Father, mother; you do not know happy I am; the Lord has now caused the plates to be shown to three more besides myself. They have seen an angel, who has testified to them; and they will know for themselves, that I do not go about to deceive the people. And I feel as if I was relieved of a burden, which was almost to heavy for me to bear; and it rejoices my heart, that I am not any longer to be entirely alone in the world.

So Markk, David repeats that many others were with JS as he translated, saw the plates even though JS was commanded to show them to no one until the time was right and he would give JS witnesses to the plates... nice try again Markk, but your source if any are suspect to a huge degree.... well at least I have scratched the surface and even more given you countless referrals and sources... Hoping soon you will begin with you pushback; that is if you even can pushback...
 
Yes I know...

Richard7 said:
The problem with this good buddy is that Martin Harris did not show up until after JS had the plates and he was already married to Emma.
So again you are using Martin Harris as a second hand account, he was never there when JS met Stowel, Beman, Samuel Lawrence or Proper. What I have asked you for over and over is first hand accounts... please focus... chuckle.

Interesting you never will engage in those things I bring to your attention... very unusual my frined, but then again when you can only use David Whitmere as your best source, well that is so sorrowful...
Ralf, I have used all the witnesses, including Harris, Emma, Mary Whitmer…and others.

Please expand what this means (below), and provide your source so I can read the context, I assume you are talking about the Tiffany interview, and the mine dig, where Joseph served as the seer for the company? It also discusses there’s digs the Smith family was involved in.
he was never there when JS met Stowel, Beman, Samuel Lawrence or Proper.

Here is a link to the historical Joel Tiffany account, make sure you read the first paragraph.

Martin Harris' 1859 Interview with Joel Tiffany on Early Events in Mormonism​



Source: Mormonism--II," TIffany's Monthly 5 (August 1859): 163-70Copy located at American Antiquarian Society, Worcester, Mass.
The following narration we took down from the lips of Martin Harris, and read the same to him after it was written, that we might be certain of giving his statement to the world. We made a journey to Ohio for the purpose of obtaining it, in the latter part of January, 1859. We did this that the world might have a connected account of the origin of Mormonism from the lips of one of the original witnesses, upon whose testimony it was first received. For it will be remembered that Martin Harris is one of the three witnesses selected to certify to the facts connected with the origin of that revelation.

Mr. Harris says: Joseph Smith, jr., found at Palmyra [Manchester], N.Y., on the 22d day of September, 1827, the plates of gold upon which was recorded in Arabic, Chaldaic, Syriac, and Egyptian, the Book of Life, or the Book of Mormon. I was not with him at the time, but I had a revelation the summer before, that God had a work for me to do. These plates were found at the north point of a hill two miles north of Manchester village. Joseph had a stone which was dug from the well of Mason Chase, twenty-four feet from the surface. In this stone he could see many things to my certain knowledge. It was by means of this stone he first discovered these plates. In the first place, he told me of this stone, and proposed to bind it on his eyes, and run a race with me in the woods. A few days after this, I was at the house of his father in Manchester, two miles south of Palmyra village, and was picking my teeth with a pin while sitting on the bars. The pin caught in my teeth, and dropped from my fingers into shavings and straw. I jumped from the bars and looked for it. Joseph and Northrop Sweet also did the same. We could not find it. I then took Joseph on surprise, and said to him--I said, "Take your stone," I had never seen it, and did not know that he had it with him. He had it in his pocket. He took it [out] and placed it in his hat--the old white hat--and placed his face in his hat. I watched him closely to see that he did not look [to] one side; he reached out his hand beyond me on the right, and moved a little stick, and there I saw the pin, which he picked up and gave to me. I know he did not look out of the hat until after he had picked up the pin. Joseph had had this stone for some time. There was a company there in that neighborhood, who were digging for money supposed to have been hidden by the ancients. Of this company were old Mr. Stowel[l]--I think his name was Josiah--also old Mr. Beman, also Samuel Lawrence, George Proper, Joseph Smith, jr., and his father, and his brother Hiram Smith. They dug for money in Palmyra, Manchester, also in Pennsylvania, and other places. When Joseph found this stone, there was a company digging in Harmony, Pa., and they took Joseph to look in the stone for them, and he did so for a while, and then he told them the enchantment was so strong that he could not see, and they gave it up. There he became acquainted with his future wife, the daughter of old Mr. Isaac Hale, where he boarded. He afterwards returned to Pennsylvania again, and married his wife, taking her off to old Mr. Stowel[l]'s, because her people would not consent to the marriage. She was of age, Joseph was not.

After this, on the 22nd of September, 1827, before day, Joseph took the horse and wagon of old Mr. Stowel[l], and taking his wife, he went to the place where the plates were concealed, and while he was obtaining them, she kneeled down and prayed. He then took the plates and hid them in an old black oak tree top which was hollow. Mr. Stowel[l] was at this time at old Mr. Smith's, digging for money. It was reported by these money-diggers, that they had found boxes, but before they could secure them, they would sink into the earth. A candid old Presbyterian told me, that on the Susquehannah flats he dug down to an iron chest, that he scraped the dirt off with his shovel, but had nothing with him to open the chest; that he went away to get help, and when they came to it, it moved away two or three rods into the earth, and they could not get it.

There were a great many strange sights. One time the old log school-house south of Palmyra, was suddenly lighted up, and frightened them away. Samuel Lawrence told me that while they were digging, a large man who appeared to be eight or nine feet high, came and sat on the ridge of the barn, and motioned to them that they must leave. They motioned back that they would not; but that they afterwards became frightened and did leave. At another time while they were digging, a company of horsemen came and frightened them away. These things were real to them, I believe, because they were told to me in confidence, and told by different ones, and their stories agreed, and they seemed to be in earnest--I knew they were in earnest.

Cont.
 
Joseph did not dig for these plates. They were placed in this way: four stones were set up and covered with a flat stone, oval on the upper side and flat on the bottom. Beneath this was a little platform upon which the plates were laid; and the two stones set in a bow of silver by means of which the plates were translated, were found underneath the plates.

These plates were seven inches wide by eight inches in length, and were of the thickness of plates of tin; and when piled one above the other, they were altogether about four inches thick; and they were put together on the back by three silver rings, so that they would open like a book. The two stones set in a bow of silver were about two inches in diameter, perfectly round, and about five-eighths of an inch thick at the centre; but not so thick at the edges where they came into the bow. They were joined by a round bar of silver, about three-eighths of an inch in diameter, and about four inches long, which, with the two stones, would make eight inches. The stones were white, like polished marble, with a few gray streaks. I never dared to look into them by placing them in the hat, because Moses said that "no man could see God and live," and we could see anything we wished by looking into them; and I could not keep the desire to see God out of my mind. And beside, we had a command to let no man look into them, except by the command of God, lest he should "look aught and perish." These plates were usually kept in a cherry box made for that purpose, in the possession of Joseph and myself. The plates were kept from the sight of the world, and no one, save Oliver Cowdrey, myself, Joseph Smith, jr., and David Whitmer, ever saw them. Before the Lord showed the plates to me, Joseph wished me to see them. But I refused, unless the Lord should do it.

At one time, before the Lord showed them to me, Joseph said I should see them. I asked him, why he would break the commands of the Lord? He said, you have done so much I am afraid you will not believe unless you see them. I replied, "Joseph, I know all about it. The Lord has showed to me ten times more about it than you know."--Here we inquired of Mr. Harris--How did the Lord show you these things? He replied, "I am forbidden to say anything how the Lord showed them to me, except that by the power of God I have seen them." Mr. Harris continues: I hefted the plates many times, and should think they weighed forty or fifty pounds. When Joseph had obtained the plates, he communicated the fact to his father and mother. The plates remained concealed in the tree top until he got the chest made. He then went after them and brought them home. While on his way home with the plates, he was met by what appeared to be a man, who demanded the plates, and struck him with a club on his side, which was all black and blue. Joseph knocked the man down, and then ran for home, and was much out of breath. When he arrived at home, he handed the plates in at the window, and they were received from him by his mother. They were then hidden under the hearth in his father's house. But the wall being partly down, it was feared that certain ones, who were trying to get possession of the plates would get under the house and dig them out.

Joseph then took them out, and hid them under the old cooper's shop, by taking up a board and digging in the ground and burying them. When they were taken from there, they were put into an old Ontario glass box. Old Mr. Beman sawed off the ends, making the box the right length to put them in, and when they went in he said he heard them jink [clink], but he was not permitted to see them. He told me so.

The money-diggers claimed that they had as much right to the plates as Joseph had, as they were in company together. They claimed that Joseph had been [a] traitor, and had appropriated to himself that which belonged to them. For this reason Joseph was afraid of them, and continued concealing the plates. After they had been concealed under the floor of the cooper's shop for a short time, Joseph was warned to remove them. He said he was warned by an angel. He took them out and hid them up in the chamber of the cooper's shop among the flags [flax]. That night some one came, took up the floor, and dug up the earth, and would have found the plates had they not been removed. These things had all occurred before I talked with Joseph respecting the plates. But I had the account of it from Joseph, his wife, brothers, sisters, his father and mother. I talked with them separately, that I might get the truth of the matter.

The first time I heard of the matter, my brother Presarved [Preserved] Harris, who had been in the village of Palmyra, asked me if had heard about Joseph Smith, jr., having a golden bible. My thoughts were that the money-diggers had probably dug up an old brass kettle, or something of the kind. I thought no more of it. This was about the first of October, 1827. The next day after the talk with my brother, I went to the village, and there I was asked what I thought of the Gold Bible? I replied, The Scripture says, He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is foolishness unto him. I do not wish to make myself a fool. I don't know anything about it. Then said I, what is it about Joe's Gold Bible? They then went on to say, that they put whiskey into the old man's cider and got him half drunk, and he told them all about it. They then repeated his account, which I found afterwards to agree substantially with the account given by Joseph. Then said I to them, how do you know that he has not got such gold plates? They replied, "Damn him! angels appear to men in this enlightened age! Damn him, he ought to be tarred and feathered for telling such a damned lie!" Then I said, suppose he has told a lie, as old Tom Jefferson said, it did [not] matter to him whether a man believed in one god or twenty. It did not rob his pocket, nor break his shins. What is it to us if he has told a lie? He has it to answer for [it] if he has lied. If you should tar and feather all the liars, you would soon be out of funds to purchase the material.

I then thought of the words of Christ, The kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. I knew they were of the devil's kingdom, and if that is of the devil, his kingdom is divided against itself. I said in my heart, this is something besides smoke. There is some fire at the bottom of it. I then determined to go and see Joseph as soon as I could find time. A day or so before I was ready to visit Joseph, his mother came over to our house and wished to talk with me. I told her I had no time to spare, she might talk with my wife, and, in the evening when I had finished my work I would talk with her. When she commenced talking with me, she told me respecting his bringing home the plates, and many other things, and said that Joseph had sent her over and wished me to come and see him. I told her that I had a time appointed when I would go, and that when the time came I should then go, but I did not tell her when it was. I sent my boy to harness my horse and take her home. She wished my wife and daughter to go with her; and they went and spent most of the day. When they came home, I questioned them about them. My daughter said, they were about as much as she could lift. They were now in the glass-box, and my wife said they were very heavy. They both lifted them. I waited a day or two, when I got up in the morning, took my breakfast, and told my folks I was going to the village, but went directly to old Mr. Smith's.

Cont
 
I found that Joseph had gone away to work for Peter Ingersol[l] to get some flour. I was glad he was absent, for that gave me an opportunity of talking with his wife and the family about the plates. I talked with them separately, to see if their stories agreed, and I found they did agree. When Joseph came home I did not wish him to know that I had been talking with them, so I took him by the arm and led him away from the rest, and requested him to tell me the story, which he did as follows. He said: "An angel had appeared to him, and told him it was God's work." Here Mr. Harris seemed to wander from the subject, when we requested him to continue and tell what Joseph then said. He replied, Joseph had before this described the manner of his finding the plates. He found them by looking in the stone found in the well of Mason Chase. The family had likewise told me the same thing. Joseph said the angel told him he must quit the company of the money-diggers. That there were wicked men among them. He must have no more to do with them. He must not lie, nor swear, nor steal. He told him to go and look in the spectacles, and he would show him the man that would assist him. That he did so, and he saw myself, Martin Harris, standing before him. That struck me with surprise. I told him I wished him to be very careful about these things. "Well," said he, "I saw you standing before me as plainly as I do now." I said, if it is the devil's work I will have nothing to do with it; but if it is the Lord's, you can have all the money necessary to bring it before the world. He said the angel told him, that the plates must be translated, printed and sent before the world. I said, Joseph, you know my doctrine, that cursed is every one that putteth his trust in man, and maketh flesh his arm; and we know that the devil is to have great power in the latter days to deceive if possible the very elect; and I don't know that you are one of the elect. Now you must not blame me for not taking your word. If the Lord will show me that it is his work, you can have all the money you want.

While at Mr. Smith's I hefted the plates, and I knew from the heft that they were lead or gold, and I knew that Joseph had not credit enough to buy so much lead. I left Mr. Smith's about eleven o'clock and went home. I retired to my bedroom and prayed God to show me concerning these things, and I covenanted that if it was his work and he would show me so, I would put forth my best ability to bring it before the world. He then showed me that it was his work, and that it was designed to bring in the fullness of his gospel to the gentiles to fulfill his word, that the first shall be last and the last first. He showed this to me by the still small voice spoken in the soul. Then I was satisfied that it was the Lord's work, and I was under a covenant to bring it forth. The excitement in the village upon the subject had become such that some had threatened to mob Joseph, and also to tar and feather him. They said he should never leave until he had shown the plates. It was unsafe for him to remain, so I determined that he must go to his father-in-law's in Pennsylvania.

He wrote to his brother-in-law Alvah Hale, requesting him to come for him. I advised Joseph that he must pay all his debts before starting. I paid them for him, and furnished him money for his journey. I advised him to take time enough to get ready, so that he might start a day or two in advance: for he would be mobbed if it was known when he started. We put the box of plates into a barrel about one-third full of beans and headed it up. I informed Mr. Hale of the matter, and advised them to cut each a good cudgel and put [them] into the wagon with them, which they did. It was understood that they were to start on Monday; but they started on Saturday night and got thought safe. This was the last of October, 1827. It might have been the first of November. (http://boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/MHarris-2DOThtml)

End​

 
Ralf, I have used all the witnesses, including Harris, Emma, Mary Whitmer…and others.

Please expand what this means (below), and provide your source so I can read the context, I assume you are talking about the Tiffany interview, and the mine dig, where Joseph served as the seer for the company? It also discusses there’s digs the Smith family was involved in.


Here is a link to the historical Joel Tiffany account, make sure you read the first paragraph.

Martin Harris' 1859 Interview with Joel Tiffany on Early Events in Mormonism​



Source: Mormonism--II," TIffany's Monthly 5 (August 1859): 163-70Copy located at American Antiquarian Society, Worcester, Mass.
The following narration we took down from the lips of Martin Harris, and read the same to him after it was written, that we might be certain of giving his statement to the world. We made a journey to Ohio for the purpose of obtaining it, in the latter part of January, 1859. We did this that the world might have a connected account of the origin of Mormonism from the lips of one of the original witnesses, upon whose testimony it was first received. For it will be remembered that Martin Harris is one of the three witnesses selected to certify to the facts connected with the origin of that revelation.

Mr. Harris says: Joseph Smith, jr., found at Palmyra [Manchester], N.Y., on the 22d day of September, 1827, the plates of gold upon which was recorded in Arabic, Chaldaic, Syriac, and Egyptian, the Book of Life, or the Book of Mormon. I was not with him at the time, but I had a revelation the summer before, that God had a work for me to do. These plates were found at the north point of a hill two miles north of Manchester village. Joseph had a stone which was dug from the well of Mason Chase, twenty-four feet from the surface. In this stone he could see many things to my certain knowledge. It was by means of this stone he first discovered these plates. In the first place, he told me of this stone, and proposed to bind it on his eyes, and run a race with me in the woods. A few days after this, I was at the house of his father in Manchester, two miles south of Palmyra village, and was picking my teeth with a pin while sitting on the bars. The pin caught in my teeth, and dropped from my fingers into shavings and straw. I jumped from the bars and looked for it. Joseph and Northrop Sweet also did the same. We could not find it. I then took Joseph on surprise, and said to him--I said, "Take your stone," I had never seen it, and did not know that he had it with him. He had it in his pocket. He took it [out] and placed it in his hat--the old white hat--and placed his face in his hat. I watched him closely to see that he did not look [to] one side; he reached out his hand beyond me on the right, and moved a little stick, and there I saw the pin, which he picked up and gave to me. I know he did not look out of the hat until after he had picked up the pin. Joseph had had this stone for some time. There was a company there in that neighborhood, who were digging for money supposed to have been hidden by the ancients. Of this company were old Mr. Stowel[l]--I think his name was Josiah--also old Mr. Beman, also Samuel Lawrence, George Proper, Joseph Smith, jr., and his father, and his brother Hiram Smith. They dug for money in Palmyra, Manchester, also in Pennsylvania, and other places. When Joseph found this stone, there was a company digging in Harmony, Pa., and they took Joseph to look in the stone for them, and he did so for a while, and then he told them the enchantment was so strong that he could not see, and they gave it up. There he became acquainted with his future wife, the daughter of old Mr. Isaac Hale, where he boarded. He afterwards returned to Pennsylvania again, and married his wife, taking her off to old Mr. Stowel[l]'s, because her people would not consent to the marriage. She was of age, Joseph was not.

After this, on the 22nd of September, 1827, before day, Joseph took the horse and wagon of old Mr. Stowel[l], and taking his wife, he went to the place where the plates were concealed, and while he was obtaining them, she kneeled down and prayed. He then took the plates and hid them in an old black oak tree top which was hollow. Mr. Stowel[l] was at this time at old Mr. Smith's, digging for money. It was reported by these money-diggers, that they had found boxes, but before they could secure them, they would sink into the earth. A candid old Presbyterian told me, that on the Susquehannah flats he dug down to an iron chest, that he scraped the dirt off with his shovel, but had nothing with him to open the chest; that he went away to get help, and when they came to it, it moved away two or three rods into the earth, and they could not get it.

There were a great many strange sights. One time the old log school-house south of Palmyra, was suddenly lighted up, and frightened them away. Samuel Lawrence told me that while they were digging, a large man who appeared to be eight or nine feet high, came and sat on the ridge of the barn, and motioned to them that they must leave. They motioned back that they would not; but that they afterwards became frightened and did leave. At another time while they were digging, a company of horsemen came and frightened them away. These things were real to them, I believe, because they were told to me in confidence, and told by different ones, and their stories agreed, and they seemed to be in earnest--I knew they were in earnest.

Cont.
Oh my! Seems Oliver who translated over 90 percent of the Book of Mormon saw things differently... chuckle.
But for the record we both know that Oliver and Martin both came back to the church and never denied their testimony of seeing the plates, the angel and voice of God.... seems you will have to choose what you want to believe and what you want to discard.. .hmm


Oliver was more than satisfied with what he saw and heard. Several years later, he wrote:


Near the time of the setting of the sun, Sabbath evening, April 5, 1829, my natural eyes for the first time beheld Joseph Smith the Prophet. He then resided in Harmony, Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania. On Monday the 6th I assisted him in arranging some business of a temporal nature, and on Tuesday the 7th commenced to write the Book of Mormon.



These were days never to be forgotten, to sit under the sound of a voice dictated by the inspiration of heaven, awakened the uttermost gratitude of this bosom! Day after day I continued, uninterrupted, to write from his mouth, as he translated, with the Urim and Thummim, or, as the Nephites would have said, "Interpreters," the history, or record, called The Book of Mormon.11
 
Ralf, I have used all the witnesses, including Harris, Emma, Mary Whitmer…and others.

Please expand what this means (below), and provide your source so I can read the context, I assume you are talking about the Tiffany interview, and the mine dig, where Joseph served as the seer for the company? It also discusses there’s digs the Smith family was involved in.


Here is a link to the historical Joel Tiffany account, make sure you read the first paragraph.

Martin Harris' 1859 Interview with Joel Tiffany on Early Events in Mormonism​




Mr. Harris says: Joseph Smith, jr., found at Palmyra [Manchester], N.Y., on the 22d day of September, 1827, the plates of gold upon which was recorded in Arabic, Chaldaic, Syriac, and Egyptian, the Book of Life, or the Book of Mormon. I was not with him at the time, but I had a revelation the summer before, that God had a work for me to do. These plates were found at the north point of a hill two miles north of Manchester village. Joseph had a stone which was dug from the well of Mason Chase, twenty-four feet from the surface. In this stone he could see many things to my certain knowledge. It was by means of this stone he first discovered these plates.

Well Markk, this is one false statement by Martin and we should be suspect of all his other stores as well....
  1. The angel Moroni showed Joseph Smith where to find the golden plates. They were buried in the Hill Cumorah.

  2. Four years later, Joseph and his wife, Emma, went in a wagon to get the plates.

The angel Moroni said the gold plates were buried in a hill near Joseph’s home. Moroni said that two stones, called the Urim and Thummim, were hidden with the plates. The stones would help Joseph translate the book. While Moroni was talking, Joseph saw a vision that showed him where the plates were buried.

Joseph Smith—History 1:34–35, 42
 
LOL...you are getting into faith crisis mode, defcon 3...but back to the context of the mine, and the accounts of his treasures slipping away and spiritual enchantments that hindered finding the treasures.

I will get to the Gold Plates in due time.
Years ago, in my early twenties I read Mormonism Unveiled which to this day your progressive, New Mormonism, reivisionst turn to.
Imagine after all these years you guys are still being played as dummies to this pierce of proven garbage... So now we have Bushman, Vogel and other stooges still worship at the alter of hypocrisy and pietism... thank goodness and thank the Lord I never fell for this gobbledygook. But honestly my heart goes out to you and would wish or hope for a transformation in beliefs and faith.

Bushman, Vogel and slew of others have done great damage by the desecration of a true Prophet of God by calling him a money digger, cultist, occults, womanizer, seer stone fake and criminal even though never sentenced to jail for a misdemeanor or worst... Liberty Jail does not count since there was no sentencing.

On top of that many of your ilk have no problem with the murder of JS and feel justified in every-way for the turn of events of a innocent man.


Drunk, lazy, magic, money diggers, seer stone occult, and much more and yet today we see the fruits of his short glorious prophetic reign.


You have been bamboozled good buddy. Lucifer has dragged you down with his chains of apathy and lack of concern for those who face faith crisis... someone is going to be responsible, yes someone or somebody...
 
Oh my! Seems Oliver who translated over 90 percent of the Book of Mormon saw things differently... chuckle.
But for the record we both know that Oliver and Martin both came back to the church and never denied their testimony of seeing the plates, the angel and voice of God.... seems you will have to choose what you want to believe and what you want to discard.. .hmm
And? What does that have to do with what they said about Joseph? Remember Oliver said he was a fallen prophet and came back after he was dead. He accused Joseph of being a adulterer and of having an affair. And was a friend and family of David, being his brother-in-law.

Start a thread, and I'll post the transcript of Oliver's excommunication trial, in which charge #2 was sustained and reads..."2nd, For seeking to destroying the character of President Joseph Smith jr, by falsly insinuating that he was guilty of adultry &c.

You certainly can say David was not loyal, he was not, but you will have a hard time defending Oliver, when his charges, and conviction of, are a far worse attack of Joseph.

CFR that Oliver translated 90% of BoM?
 
And? What does that have to do with what they said about Joseph? Remember Oliver said he was a fallen prophet and came back after he was dead. He accused Joseph of being a adulterer and of having an affair. And was a friend and family of David, being his brother-in-law.

Little common sense will actually make your accusation seem without much merit, chuckle. We also notice you don't try very hard to see the other side. Actually Oliver Cowdery was cousin of JS.

In reply to the chapter, “Another Angel Story”​

Page 160, lines 16-26​



Page 164, lines 27-28​

“[Oliver] Cowdery had accused Joseph [Smith] of adultery. “
The reference to a thesis (Max H Parkin, “Conflict at Kirtland,” p. 166) actually says that in 1835 Joseph Smith confided “the precept of plurality of wives” to a few close associates including Oliver Cowdery. Later Oliver Cowdery did make an accusation of adultery against Joseph Smith. This same thesis also pointed out that Oliver Cowdery actually rushed into “polygamy” after Joseph Smith had told him to wait. It seems very probable that Oliver Cowdery’s accusations arose to justify his own adulterous actions. The book ignores these pertinent details.

Page 165, lines 8-9​

“Joseph Smith brazenly lied” when to Oliver Cowdery and Warren Parrish he denied he was being adulterous.

If Joseph was acting on his own, yes, to deny adultery was a lie. But if Joseph was told by God to practice plurality of wives, as Latter-day Saints believe, he was not committing adultery and was not lying.

Page 165, lines 9 and 10​

Oliver Cowdery was excommunicated because he dared to accuse “the Lord’s anointed.”

If Oliver Cowdery was being adulterous, in that he took an additional “wife” without being properly authorized and married under Priesthood authority, his behavior warranted excommunication. (George Q. Cannon [ed.]. Juvenile Instructor, XVI: 18 [September 15, 1881], p. 206). Again we see Joseph Smith kept the integrity of the Church. An excommunicated, angry Cowdery could expose the “seam” if it was a hoax. Would Oliver Cowdery have returned to the Church in 1850 and would he have reaffirmed his testimony of the Book of Mormon if he really believed Joseph Smith was a fraud or adulterous?

Start a thread, and I'll post the transcript of Oliver's excommunication trial, in which charge #2 was sustained and reads..."2nd, For seeking to destroying the character of President Joseph Smith jr, by falsly insinuating that he was guilty of adultry &c.

That will be fun, but I'm not interested in starting another thread, but if you do I will surely meet you there. I'm enjoying the debate we are having on Bushman, Gold Digging, Magic, Occult and Lazy Farmers, etc. Maybe you're ready to cut and run... hmm

You certainly can say David was not loyal, he was not, but you will have a hard time defending Oliver, when his charges, and conviction of, are a far worse attack of Joseph.

CFR that Oliver translated 90% of BoM?
..
The other manuscript, the printer’s manuscript (P), is virtually intact. Only three lines of its text, from the first leaf of the manuscript, have been worn away. This manuscript is owned by the Community of Christ (formerly the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints). Oliver Cowdery is the main scribe for P:

Oliver Cowdery84.6 percent
 
Little common sense will actually make your accusation seem without much merit, chuckle. We also notice you don't try very hard to see the other side. Actually Oliver Cowdery was cousin of JS.

In reply to the chapter, “Another Angel Story”​

Page 160, lines 16-26​



Page 164, lines 27-28​


The reference to a thesis (Max H Parkin, “Conflict at Kirtland,” p. 166) actually says that in 1835 Joseph Smith confided “the precept of plurality of wives” to a few close associates including Oliver Cowdery. Later Oliver Cowdery did make an accusation of adultery against Joseph Smith. This same thesis also pointed out that Oliver Cowdery actually rushed into “polygamy” after Joseph Smith had told him to wait. It seems very probable that Oliver Cowdery’s accusations arose to justify his own adulterous actions. The book ignores these pertinent details.

Page 165, lines 8-9​

“Joseph Smith brazenly lied” when to Oliver Cowdery and Warren Parrish he denied he was being adulterous.

If Joseph was acting on his own, yes, to deny adultery was a lie. But if Joseph was told by God to practice plurality of wives, as Latter-day Saints believe, he was not committing adultery and was not lying.

Page 165, lines 9 and 10​

Oliver Cowdery was excommunicated because he dared to accuse “the Lord’s anointed.”

If Oliver Cowdery was being adulterous, in that he took an additional “wife” without being properly authorized and married under Priesthood authority, his behavior warranted excommunication. (George Q. Cannon [ed.]. Juvenile Instructor, XVI: 18 [September 15, 1881], p. 206). Again we see Joseph Smith kept the integrity of the Church. An excommunicated, angry Cowdery could expose the “seam” if it was a hoax. Would Oliver Cowdery have returned to the Church in 1850 and would he have reaffirmed his testimony of the Book of Mormon if he really believed Joseph Smith was a fraud or adulterous?



That will be fun, but I'm not interested in starting another thread, but if you do I will surely meet you there. I'm enjoying the debate we are having on Bushman, Gold Digging, Magic, Occult and Lazy Farmers, etc. Maybe you're ready to cut and run... hmm


..
The other manuscript, the printer’s manuscript (P), is virtually intact. Only three lines of its text, from the first leaf of the manuscript, have been worn away. This manuscript is owned by the Community of Christ (formerly the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints). Oliver Cowdery is the main scribe for P:

Oliver Cowdery84.6 percent
Where are you Markk, still digging... chuckle
 
Where are you Markk, still digging... chuckle
Ralf...focus once again

The church ex'd Oliver for the following...this pated from the original excommunication record...

2 April 1838 • Thursday
The High Council and Bishoprick of Zion met according to appointment in Far-West April 12th 1838 Edward Partridge Presiding
The Council was organized as follows;

Voted unanimously that John Murdock be a President of the High Council, whose duty it shall be to receive charges and give notice to the defendant, also, to call the Council together and organize them &c
The Counci[l] opened by prayer by E. Partridge
After some remarks by Edward Partridge, several charges were read by him prefered against Oliver Cowdery which are as follows;

“To the Bishop and Council of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints in Missouri.
I do hereby prefer the following charges against President Oliver Cowdery.
1st, For stiring up the enemy to persecute the brethren by urging on vexatious Lawsuits and thus distressing the inocent.
2nd, For seeking to destroying the character of President Joseph Smith jr, by falsly insinuating that he was guilty of adultry &c.
3rd For treating the Church with contempt by not attending meetings.
4th. For virtually denying the faith by declaring that he would not be governed by any ecclesiastical authority nor Revelation whatever in his temporal affairs
5th For selling his lands in Jackson County contrary to the Revelations.
6th For writing and sending an insulting letter to President T[homas] B. Marsh while on the High Council, attending to the duties of his office, as President of the Council and by insulting the whole Council with the contents of said letter
7th., For leaving the calling, in which God had appointed him, by Revelation, for the sake of filthy lucre, and turning to the practice of the Law.
8th, For disgracing the Church by lieing being connected in the ‘Bogus’ buisness as common report says.
9th. For dishonestly Retaining notes after they had been paid and finally for leaving or forsaking the cause of God, and betaking himself to the beggerly elements of the world and neglecting his high and Holy Calling’ contrary to his profession.
Far West April the 7th 1838. Seymour Brunson

It was not considered a difficult case, therefore, two <one> spake on a side viz Samuel H. Smith on the part of the Church and Jared Carter on the part of the defendant.
A letter was then read by Edward Partridge from O. Cowdery which reads as follows:

Far-West Mo April 12th 1838
Dear Sir.
I received your note of the 9th inst on the day of its date, containing a copy of nine charges prefered against <before> yourself and Council, against me, by Elder Seymour Brunson.
I could have wished, that those charges might have been defered untill after my interview with President Smith; but as they are not, I must waive the anticipated pleasure with which I
had flattered myself of an understanding on those points which are grounds of difference different opinions on some church Church regulations, and others which personally interest myself.
The fifth charge reads as follows: “For selling his lands in Jackson County contrary to the revelations” so much of this charge, “For selling his lands in Jackson County” I acknowledge to be true, and believe a that a large majority of this Church have already spent their Judgements on that act, and pronounced it sufficient to warrant a disfellowship; and also that you have concured in its correctness— consequently, have no good reason for supposing you would give any decision contrary
Now sir the lands in our Country are allodial in the strictest construction of that term, and have not the least shadow of feudal tenours attached to them, consequently, they may be disposed of by deeds of conveyance without the consent or even approbation of a superior.
The fourth charge is in the following words, “For virtually denying the faith by declaring that he would not be governed by any ecclesiastical authority nor revelation whatever in his temporal affairs.”
With regard to this, I, think, I am warranted in saying, the Judgement is also passed as on the fifth matter of the fifth charge, consequently, I have no disposition to contend with the Council: this charge covers simply the doctrine of the fifth, and if I were to be controlled by other than my own judgement, in a compulsory manner, in my temporal interests. of course, could not buy or sell without the consent of some real or supposed authority. Whither that clause contains the precise words, I am not certain— I think howevere they were these “I will not be influenced, governed, or controlled, in my temporal interests by any ecclesiastical authority or pretended revelation
what ever, contray to my own judgement” such being still my opinion shall only remark that the three great principles of English liberty, as laid down in the books, are “the right of personal security; the right of personal liberty, and the right of private property” My venerable ancestor was among that little band, who landed on the rocks of Plymouth in 1620— with him he brought those maxims, and a body of those laws which were the result and experience of many centuries, on the basis of which now stands our great and happy Government: and they are so interwooven in my nature, have so long been inculcated into my mind by a liberal and intelligent ancestry, that I am wholly unwilling to exchange them for any thing less liberal, less benevolent, or less free.



Continued...
 
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The very principle of which I conceive to be couched in an attempt to set up a kind of petty government, controlled and dictated by ecclesiastical influence, in the midst of this National and State Government. You will, no doubt say this is not correct; but the bare notice of those charges, over which you assume a right to decide, is, in my opinion, a direct attempt to make the secular power subservient to Church dictation— to the correctness of which I cannot in conscience subscribe— I believe that principle never did fail to produce Anarchy & confusion.
This attempt to controll me in my temporal interests, I conceive to be a disposition to take from me a portion of my Constitutional privileges and inherent rights. I only, respectfully, ask leave, therefore, to withdraw from a society assuming these they <have> such right.
So far as relates to the other seven charges, I shall lay them carefully away, and take such a course with regard to them, as I may feel bound by my honor, to answer to my rising posterity.
I beg you, sir, to take no view of the foregoing remarks, other than my belief on the outward government of this Church. I do not charge you, or any other person who differs with me on those points, of not being sincere; but such difference does exist, which I sincerely regret.
With considerations of the hi[gh]est] respect. I am,
Your obedient servent.
O. Cowdery.
Rev.
Edward Partridge
Bishop of the Church of Latter day Saints

John Corrill testifies that some time last fall Marcellus Cowdery came to him and requested him to pay certain notes against Joseph Smith jr but he declined, soon after a writ was served on him; he supposed that it was through the influence of O. Cowdery that the writ was served. From circumstances, he is of the impression that O. Cowdery has used his influence to urge on lawsuits, which have taken place of late in this place. Also, that O. Cowdery said to him “the law is my theme.[”]
John Anderson testifies that, from circumstances, he believes that O. Cowdery has been influential in causing lawsuits in this place, as a number more lawsuits have taken place since he came here than before
Dimic[k] B. Huntington. testifies, that O. Cowdery called to him one day evening as he was passing through the street, and said that he Smelt a Skunk (an enemy &c) and if he knew who it was he would put the screws to him. and also informed D. B. Huntington if he
heard any guns fired in town to put the screws (i.e. the law) to him who done it, this was after he was appointed to attend the suits of the corporation and also went on to urge lawsuits as even to issue a writ on the Sabbath day also, that he heard him say that he intended to form a partnership with Donophon, who is a man of the world and a wicked man
George M. Hinkle, testifies that O. Cowdery wanted to become a secret partner in the store as he would be able to collect the debts & act as an Aterny [Attorney] and thereby be able to get his fees or living which was verbally agreed to, when he traded a considerable and finally they got sick of him and got rid of him the best way they could, which they did do, but still solicited for buisness in the law line, and has frequently solicited for buisness in collecting debts, as he was an Aterny in the place, also testifies that he has seen him urge on lawsuits with others.
George W. Harris testifies that one evening last fall O. Cowdery was at his house together with Joseph Smith, jr, and Thomas B. Marsh, when a conversation took place between Joseph Smith jr & O. Cowdery, when he seemed to insinuate that Joseph Smith jr was guilty of adultery, but when the question was put, if he (Joseph) had ever acknowledged to him that he was guilty of such a thing; when he answered, No. Also he believes him to be instrumental in causing so many lawsuits as had taken place of late
David W. Patten testifies, that he went to Oliver Cowdery to enquire of him if a certain story was true respecting J. Smith’s committing adultery with a certain girl, when he turned on his heel and insinuated as though he was guilty; he then went on and gave a history of some circumstances respecting the adultery scrape stating that no doubt it was true. Also said that Joseph told him, he had confessed to Emma, Also that he has used his influence to urge on lawsuits.

Continuted...
 
Thomas B. Marsh testifies that while in Kirtland last summer, David W. Patten asked Oliver Cowdery if he Joseph Smith jr had confessed to his wife that he was guilty of adultery with a certain girl, when Oliver Cowdery cocked up his eye very knowingly and hesitated to answer the question, saying he did not know as he was bound to answer the question yet conveyed the idea that it was true. Last fall after Oliver came to this place he heard a conversation take place between Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery when J. Smith asked him if he had ever confessed to him that he was guilty of adultery, when after a considerable winking &c. he said no. Joseph then <asked> him if he ever told him that he confessed to any body, when he answered no.
Joseph Smith jr testifies that Oliver Cowdery had been his bosom friend, therefore he intrusted him with many things. He then gave a history respecting the girl buisness. Also that Oliver Cowdery took him one side and said, that he had come to the conclusion to get property and if he could not get it one way he would another, God or no God, Devil or no Devil, property he must must have and since that he has dealt dishonest with him, that he has taken a printing press and type from Kirtland for which he was to give up some notes which he had against Joseph Smith jr and Sidney Rigdon which he did not do, nor has to this day.
The Council adjourned one hour.
The Council convened according to adjournment opened by prayer by B[righam] Young.

Sidney Rigdon testifies that in January 1837 Oliver Cowdery offered to sell out his share in the printing office at Kirtland Ohio, which they Joseph Smith jr & Sidney Rigdon bought and gave their notes, after which say in the spring following he wished to get a press & some of the type which they granted him on conditions that he should give up the notes above refered to, he <then> went into the office and took whatever he pleased & so completely strip[p]ed the office, as he (Rigdon) was informed by D. C. [Don Carlos] Smith, that there was scarcely enough left to print the “Elders Journal,” whereas, before there was a sufficient quantity to print a weekly and monthly paper, the book of Covenants, Hymn Book, Book of Mormon &c. but the notes he did not give up
F[rederick] G. Williams <testifies> that Oliver Cowdery told him that there was a certain man in the Church who could compound metal and make dies, that he could make money so that it could not be detected and if it was the case it was no harm to take that money and pass it. The man’s name was Davis. Also three men came to him to take out a writ to take some persons who had passed some Bogus (counterfeit) money viz: John [F.] Boynton, Warren Parrish and Burton H. Phelps. Also that it was reported that Oliver was engaged in the Bogus money buisness. Also he did not disapprove of the principle of Davis’ making the dies and money.
Joseph Smith jr testifies that Mr Sapham a man who did not belong to the church came to him and told him that <a> warrant was about to be isued against Oliver Cowdery for being engaged in making a purchase of Bogus money & dies to make the counterfeit money with. after which himself and President Rigdon went to see him.

(Oliver) and talk with him about it, when he denied it after which they told him if he was guilty he had better leave the country; but if he was inocent to stand a trial & he should come out clear; but that night or the next he left the country.
Sidney Rigdon concurs with the foregoing testimony.
John Corrill testifies that Oliver Cowdery has neglected attending meeting.
George W. Harris concurs in the same
The fourth and fifth charges were rejected by the Court. The 6th charge was withdrawn.
After some remarks by the Councellors, it was decided by the Bishop and his Council that the 1st, 2nd, & 3rd charges were sustained, the 7th was sustained also the 8th charge was sustained satisfactoryly by circumstancial evidence. The ninth charge was sustained. he was, therefore, considered no longer a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
The decision was sanctioned by the High Council
The Council adjourned untill tomorrow at 9 o’ clock. Closed in prayer by
Isaac Morley.

clickk here ralf
 
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Thomas B. Marsh testifies that while in Kirtland last summer, David W. Patten asked Oliver Cowdery if he Joseph Smith jr had confessed to his wife that he was guilty of adultery with a certain girl, when Oliver Cowdery cocked up his eye very knowingly and hesitated to answer the question, saying he did not know as he was bound to answer the question yet conveyed the idea that it was true. Last fall after Oliver came to this place he heard a conversation take place between Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery when J. Smith asked him if he had ever confessed to him that he was guilty of adultery, when after a considerable winking &c. he said no. Joseph then <asked> him if he ever told him that he confessed to any body, when he answered no.
Joseph Smith jr testifies that Oliver Cowdery had been his bosom friend, therefore he intrusted him with many things. He then gave a history respecting the girl buisness. Also that Oliver Cowdery took him one side and said, that he had come to the conclusion to get property and if he could not get it one way he would another, God or no God, Devil or no Devil, property he must must have and since that he has dealt dishonest with him, that he has taken a printing press and type from Kirtland for which he was to give up some notes which he had against Joseph Smith jr and Sidney Rigdon which he did not do, nor has to this day.
The Council adjourned one hour.
The Council convened according to adjournment opened by prayer by B[righam] Young.

Sidney Rigdon testifies that in January 1837 Oliver Cowdery offered to sell out his share in the printing office at Kirtland Ohio, which they Joseph Smith jr & Sidney Rigdon bought and gave their notes, after which say in the spring following he wished to get a press & some of the type which they granted him on conditions that he should give up the notes above refered to, he <then> went into the office and took whatever he pleased & so completely strip[p]ed the office, as he (Rigdon) was informed by D. C. [Don Carlos] Smith, that there was scarcely enough left to print the “Elders Journal,” whereas, before there was a sufficient quantity to print a weekly and monthly paper, the book of Covenants, Hymn Book, Book of Mormon &c. but the notes he did not give up
F[rederick] G. Williams <testifies> that Oliver Cowdery told him that there was a certain man in the Church who could compound metal and make dies, that he could make money so that it could not be detected and if it was the case it was no harm to take that money and pass it. The man’s name was Davis. Also three men came to him to take out a writ to take some persons who had passed some Bogus (counterfeit) money viz: John [F.] Boynton, Warren Parrish and Burton H. Phelps. Also that it was reported that Oliver was engaged in the Bogus money buisness. Also he did not disapprove of the principle of Davis’ making the dies and money.
Joseph Smith jr testifies that Mr Sapham a man who did not belong to the church came to him and told him that <a> warrant was about to be isued against Oliver Cowdery for being engaged in making a purchase of Bogus money & dies to make the counterfeit money with. after which himself and President Rigdon went to see him.

(Oliver) and talk with him about it, when he denied it after which they told him if he was guilty he had better leave the country; but if he was inocent to stand a trial & he should come out clear; but that night or the next he left the country.
Sidney Rigdon concurs with the foregoing testimony.
John Corrill testifies that Oliver Cowdery has neglected attending meeting.
George W. Harris concurs in the same
The fourth and fifth charges were rejected by the Court. The 6th charge was withdrawn.
After some remarks by the Councellors, it was decided by the Bishop and his Council that the 1st, 2nd, & 3rd charges were sustained, the 7th was sustained also the 8th charge was sustained satisfactoryly by circumstancial evidence. The ninth charge was sustained. he was, therefore, considered no longer a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
The decision was sanctioned by the High Council
The Council adjourned untill tomorrow at 9 o’ clock. Closed in prayer by
Isaac Morley.

clickk here ralf
Thomas B. Marsh testifies that while in Kirtland last summer, David W. Patten asked Oliver Cowdery if he Joseph Smith jr had confessed to his wife that he was guilty of adultery with a certain girl, when Oliver Cowdery cocked up his eye very knowingly and hesitated to answer the question, saying he did not know as he was bound to answer the question yet conveyed the idea that it was true. Last fall after Oliver came to this place he heard a conversation take place between Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery when J. Smith asked him if he had ever confessed to him that he was guilty of adultery, when after a considerable winking &c. he said no. Joseph then <asked> him if he ever told him that he confessed to any body, when he answered no.
 
Thomas B. Marsh testifies that while in Kirtland last summer, David W. Patten asked Oliver Cowdery if he Joseph Smith jr had confessed to his wife that he was guilty of adultery with a certain girl, when Oliver Cowdery cocked up his eye very knowingly and hesitated to answer the question, saying he did not know as he was bound to answer the question yet conveyed the idea that it was true. Last fall after Oliver came to this place he heard a conversation take place between Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery when J. Smith asked him if he had ever confessed to him that he was guilty of adultery, when after a considerable winking &c. he said no. Joseph then <asked> him if he ever told him that he confessed to any body, when he answered no.
Focus...Oliver was "convicted" of the charge, it was sustained as such. You can't erase the outcome. The quote above was only for the record to show that Oliver "falsely" accused Joseph to the public, but secretly denied in it privately to Joseph, in other words to prove he was lying about Joseph.

This was the charge he was found guilty of...

2nd, For seeking to destroying the character of President Joseph Smith jr, by falsly insinuating that he was guilty of adultry &c.


Click Here Ralf
 
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