THE DAY OF THE LORD AND THE COMING JUDGEMENT

JDS

Well-known member
Why ask such an obvious thing?
EVERYONE who has died, just as we all will do, from whatever cause, must wait in death until they are brought up to stand before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15 The only exceptions will be the martyrs killed during the Great Tribulation; the 3 1/2 year period before Jesus Returns.
The faithful people still living at the Return, will be gathered to where Jesus will be; in Jerusalem. Matthew 24:30-31, 1 Thess 4:17
So, those who endure to the end of the tribulation will be saved? But some will not endure to the end but will be martyred? How does that work? What is the meaning of being saved? Enduring to the end and being gathered to Jerusalem?
 

Keraz

Member
So, those who endure to the end of the tribulation will be saved? But some will not endure to the end but will be martyred? How does that work? What is the meaning of being saved? Enduring to the end and being gathered to Jerusalem?
It works just as what in happening now. Today; there are people being killed for their faith in Jesus. There souls are kept under the Altar in heaven. Revelation 6:9-11
But in the final 3 1/2 years, of the 'beasts' world control, those who refuse his mark and are martyred, they will be resurrected by Jesus at His Return. Revelation 20:4

Most of those gathered at the Return, Matthew 24:30-31, will be those kept in the place of safety. Revelation 12:14
 

rod.ney

Well-known member
Agreed.

Why do you believe that it was written in 94 AD?

John is building on the words of the Old Testament, especially the apocalyptic texts. What do clouds and earth mean in those contexts?

Also, what do the phrases "quickly", "shortly come to pass", and "time is at hand" mean?

Why do you believe that it is the church in Revelation 4:1 that is called up to Heaven and not John?

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.


These things were future when John wrote the book of Revelation, so it is important to solidify when that letter was written. That's why I asked why you believe it was written in 94 AD.

Why do you believe that 2 Peter is 67 AD?

I do not see this as a necessary, or even reasonable conclusion. What I mean by that is that there is nothing in the text of the scriptures, old or new testament, that requires this as an interpretation. God is not bound by time. There is no limitation to God in some kind of super-time where God sees things only for a thousand years for every day that we see. He isn't existing in some kind of higher time or heavenly time. He is eternal, completely above and outside of time and not subject to it. All of the bold underlined parts above are not necessary conclusions from any text in scripture.

2 Peter 3 is sufficient to understand what Peter means in verse 8.

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promises. The Christians were crying out how long, how long in reference to the persecution they were suffering at the hands of the Jews. God tells them "not yet, I will do things at the appropriate time, there are still more I will gather to me first". He is longsuffering that is, He is willing to be patient until all who would come to repentance would do so before that judgment came. What then is that judgment against? The current heavens and earth. What are the current heavens and earth that Peter speaks of? Read Isaiah 1:2, 10...it's the Jewish State (rulers) and the Jewish people.

I look forward to hearing why you think Revelation was written in 94 AD.

In Truth and Love.
Revelation was written around that time 94-95 AD because John was Exiled to Patmos by the Emperor Domitian around that time and he wrote Revelation while on the Isle of Patmos! Thus Preterists are 100% WRONG to say Jesus returned in 70 AD ( at the end of Daniel 9:27 )! It is still Future and Jesus will return at the END of the 3.5 year Great Trib., that starts in the Middle of those 7 years of Dan.9:27!
 

JDS

Well-known member
It works just as what in happening now. Today; there are people being killed for their faith in Jesus. There souls are kept under the Altar in heaven. Revelation 6:9-11
But in the final 3 1/2 years, of the 'beasts' world control, those who refuse his mark and are martyred, they will be resurrected by Jesus at His Return. Revelation 20:4

Most of those gathered at the Return, Matthew 24:30-31, will be those kept in the place of safety. Revelation 12:14
I am not understanding the enduring part. If they must endure to the end to be saved, and they do not endure to the end, but are saved and martyred before the end and subsequently resurrected, does not that negate the necessity of enduring to the end?
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Revelation 21 claims it is a future event.
It was future when John wrote it. It is not future to us as it was pertaining to things that would "shortly come to pass" for the time was "at hand" and Jesus was "coming quickly". Revelation 21 is the church, the bride of the Lamb (vs. 2, 9-10).
Hebrews 12:22-24

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."

Yes, literally the souls of millions if not billions are currently in Paradise in permanent, incorruptible, bodies. Free of sin and death and Satan. That is Paradise.
It literally says that the city of God, the heavenly Jerusalem, is the church of the firstborn. Either the church is or is not the heavenly/new Jerusalem. All that about Paradise is you inserting content into the verse that is not relevant to the argument made.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Sorry, I do not want to get bogged down on studies that cannot be proven by the words of the scriptures. I will stick with discussing the day of the Lord theme of scripture in this thread because it is so important and if we will believe the words written about it we will all be in agreement of what it is teaching us.
Your entire argument is based on the premise that it was written in 94 AD. If you cannot sustain that premise, then your entire argument fails and the rest of your post is pointless. You have admitted that you cannot sustain your premise from scripture, therefore you have no basis for the rest of your claims. They are just unfounded assertions based on a failed premise.
 

Timtofly

Member
I am not understanding the enduring part. If they must endure to the end to be saved, and they do not endure to the end, but are saved and martyred before the end and subsequently resurrected, does not that negate the necessity of enduring to the end?
The end is physical death, no?

Calvinist would claim no one can. The elect do not have to. They can only endure, no matter what. Arminians claim many will not endure until physical death. What else besides physical death is the end? Are those in sheol still enduring with a chance to be saved? It is appointed unto man, once to die, and then the judgment. One can only endure while they are physically alive. If one never accepts God's Atonement while alive, what are they enduring? Are they enduring their self sufficiency and avoiding the Atonement?

What does Satan want to take away from every soul, that seems to be maintained by Faith, if not the Atonement? The Atonement is not maintained by good works, it is a free gift.

If one is saved, one remains saved by God's grace. There will come a time, when Christ, Himself will be on earth. It will not be because of Faith. It will be by sight. The 144k will be sealed (elect without a choice). Many will choose between following Christ directly or following Satan. Who they follow when they are physically killed will either save them or send their soul to the Lake of Fire. Taking the mark will mean they have given up, and did not endure. Getting one's head chopped off, will be the escape salvation, immediately ending their physical life, thus enduring until the end, literally.
 

Timtofly

Member
It was future when John wrote it. It is not future to us as it was pertaining to things that would "shortly come to pass" for the time was "at hand" and Jesus was "coming quickly". Revelation 21 is the church, the bride of the Lamb (vs. 2, 9-10).

It literally says that the city of God, the heavenly Jerusalem, is the church of the firstborn. Either the church is or is not the heavenly/new Jerusalem. All that about Paradise is you inserting content into the verse that is not relevant to the argument made.
If we already exist in the NHNE, then why is sin still a condition? Your spiritual application is not reality. If there is no reality, then nothing is literal or real. We only exist in a simulation at the whim of God. A simulation that has been out of whack and in limbo for 1900+ years. We are not even the church. The church ceased along with the scenario in Revelation 21 and 22.

There is no need of the church nor the sun and moon in Revelation 22. Thus according to your application, we do not exist. Existence stopped in the first century. I look out the window and see all 3: churches, the sun, and the moon. According to you, these should not be seen at all.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
If we already exist in the NHNE, then why is sin still a condition?
This is a different question that is distinct from what we were discussing above.

The New Heavens and the New Earth represent the new rule under Christ as High Priest and King and the new people He rules over, Christians. New Heavens and New Earth are apocalyptic terms that refer to rulers and the ruled (e.g. Isa. 1:2, 10). They do not refer to a pair of literal locations.
Your spiritual application is not reality. If there is no reality, then nothing is literal or real. We only exist in a simulation at the whim of God. A simulation that has been out of whack and in limbo for 1900+ years. We are not even the church. The church ceased along with the scenario in Revelation 21 and 22.
This is not a logical conclusion from my statements.
There is no need of the church nor the sun and moon in Revelation 22.
The sun and moon are references to the leadership. Jesus is the Sun of righteousness, He is the new King in the new system of things that followed the end of Judaism. The church certainly exists in Revelation 22 and is not spoken of as having ceased or ever ceasing. The church, the people that are the body of the saved, will exist on into eternity. There is nothing about its cessation in Revelation 22 or anywhere else.
Thus according to your application, we do not exist. Existence stopped in the first century. I look out the window and see all 3: churches, the sun, and the moon. According to you, these should not be seen at all.
That is not a logical conclusion from my statements.
 

Timtofly

Member
This is a different question that is distinct from what we were discussing above.

The New Heavens and the New Earth represent the new rule under Christ as High Priest and King and the new people He rules over, Christians. New Heavens and New Earth are apocalyptic terms that refer to rulers and the ruled (e.g. Isa. 1:2, 10). They do not refer to a pair of literal locations.

This is not a logical conclusion from my statements.

The sun and moon are references to the leadership. Jesus is the Sun of righteousness, He is the new King in the new system of things that followed the end of Judaism. The church certainly exists in Revelation 22 and is not spoken of as having ceased or ever ceasing. The church, the people that are the body of the saved, will exist on into eternity. There is nothing about its cessation in Revelation 22 or anywhere else.

That is not a logical conclusion from my statements.
Like I said, it is logical to conclude your application can not work figuratively nor literally. This is not even metaphorically the NHNE. This current condition is worse than the first century before Christ, BC. They certainly were not living in a metaphorical reality given by OT prophets, to apply spiritually to their reality.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Like I said, it is logical to conclude your application can not work figuratively nor literally. This is not even metaphorically the NHNE. This current condition is worse than the first century before Christ, BC. They certainly were not living in a metaphorical reality given by OT prophets, to apply spiritually to their reality.
As you wish.
 

Timtofly

Member
As you wish.
My wishes, belief, or even thoughts do not matter. If there is no literal application of an end in Revelation 21 and 22, what is that which passes away, and no longer remembered? We remember Mesopotamia from archeology. We remember Rome from Josephus. What spiritually has changed, that we can no longer remember?
 

Keraz

Member
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 It is just; that the Lord should balance the account by sending judgement to those who afflict you, to give those who love and serve Him relief, when Jesus comes to punish the ungodly, with His mighty host in blazing fire. They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, but on that great Day His glory will be revealed to all true believers. Isaiah 30:26, Psalm 18:7-15

This passage of Scripture is not describing the Glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign. It is an event before then –‘ when He comes in blazing fire and reveals His glory among His own’. It does not fit how He destroys the armies that are attacking Jerusalem at His Return, then how the whole world will see Him.

2 Peter 3:7& 10 The Day of the Lord will come unexpectedly. The heavens will disappear with a roar and flaming fire will bring all the earth to judgement. Malachi 4:1

Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we deliberately persist in sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there remains only the terrifying expectation of a fierce fire which will consume God’s enemies. Zephaniah 1:14-18

Psalm 110:5-6 The Lord at Your right hand – He crushes kings on the Day of His wrath. In majesty He judges the nations, causing destruction throughout the world. Ps.97:2

Revelation 14:14-20 On a white cloud, I saw a figure like a man, wearing a gold crown and holding a sharp sickle. Put in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come to harvest the earth. Then the angel that has authority over fire, called to Him - ‘Swing Your sickle now, for the earth’s grapes are ripe and ready for harvest. So the grapes were gathered and thrown into the great winepress of the Lord’s wrath. The blood flowed from it for 200 miles. Isaiah 63:1-6, Zephaniah 1:17



Jeremiah 51:5-6 Israel and Judah are not left widowed by their God, by the Lord. But their Land is full of guilt, condemned by the Holy One of Israel. Flee out of Babylon, [Babylon: a metaphor for any godless nation] each person for himself or you will perish for her sins. For now comes the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, He is paying her full recompense. Ezekiel 22:1-7, Revelation 18:4-8

Isaiah 17:1-10 Damascus will cease to be a city, just a heap of ruins forever desolate. On that Day, Jacobs strength will fade away, as when a reaper gathers the grain or as an olive tree is stripped at harvest and left with just a few berries. On that Day all will look to their Maker, all idols and the works of their hands are as rubbish. On that Day, your cities will be deserted and abandoned, because you have forgotten the Lord, your strength and protector. Jeremiah 9:12-13, Isaiah 6:11-12

Isaiah 17:12-14 Listen! It is the thunder of vast forces, like the roaring of mighty waters. Nations flee, driven before the storm like thistledown. At evening, all is terror, by morning all is gone. Such is the fate of those who conspire to attack us. Psalms 83, Isaiah 66:15-16 Ref: REB, NIV. Some verses abridged.



These Bible verses describe the next prophesied event – how God sends His right hand man, Jesus, to ‘ harvest the world of His enemies, those who conspire to attack His people’ This is also the Sixth Seal judgement, reiterated and described in over 100 Bible prophecies.
This worldwide judgement of fire accurately fits how the earth would be affected by a huge, unprecedented Coronal Mass Ejection. But as Isaiah and many other prophets say, His righteous people will be protected.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
My wishes, belief, or even thoughts do not matter. If there is no literal application of an end in Revelation 21 and 22, what is that which passes away, and no longer remembered? We remember Mesopotamia from archeology. We remember Rome from Josephus. What spiritually has changed, that we can no longer remember?
Its no longer "remembered" the way an Omniscient God no longer remembers our sins. Its the Jewish System.
 

Timtofly

Member
Its no longer "remembered" the way an Omniscient God no longer remembers our sins. Its the Jewish System.
We are not God either. I am talking about what have we not remembered? We remember all the way back to Adam and Eve. We should not remember even the first century.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
We are not God either. I am talking about what have we not remembered? We remember all the way back to Adam and Eve. We should not remember even the first century.
That's not the context of the phrase. It's not a literal "forgetting". It's saying that these things would be left in the past and not brought forward. The Jews understood this given their Day of Atonement when all their sins were brought to rememberance each year. It was a great thing then when God said "their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." (Heb. 8:12; 10:17)

Regardless, John wrote that the things he was seeing in that vision would come to pass shortly, quickly, soon. That was 1900+ years ago. It's already happened. Looking for a yet future fulfillment is to ignore multiple verses in the Apocalypse.
 

Timtofly

Member
That's not the context of the phrase. It's not a literal "forgetting". It's saying that these things would be left in the past and not brought forward. The Jews understood this given their Day of Atonement when all their sins were brought to rememberance each year. It was a great thing then when God said "their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." (Heb. 8:12; 10:17)

Regardless, John wrote that the things he was seeing in that vision would come to pass shortly, quickly, soon. That was 1900+ years ago. It's already happened. Looking for a yet future fulfillment is to ignore multiple verses in the Apocalypse.
And yet they cannot have happened and been forgotten, while sins are still remembered. Because that removal from memory applies to humans.


"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

God does not wipe away His tears, death, sorrow, pain, and all the former things. Those are what humans no longer experience. We should remember nothing of the trouble of the last 5991 years.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
And yet they cannot have happened and been forgotten, while sins are still remembered. Because that removal from memory applies to humans.


"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

God does not wipe away His tears, death, sorrow, pain, and all the former things. Those are what humans no longer experience. We should remember nothing of the trouble of the last 5991 years.
You are still being too literal with a book of figures. John is quoting Isaiah 65 there. Isaiah 65-66 is absolutely first century, absolutely about the establishment of the church. The wiping away of tears, death, and pain is symbolic of the end of persecution of the church at the hands of the Jews as recorded throughout Acts.

And you refuse to deal with the time statements.
 

Timtofly

Member
You are still being too literal with a book of figures. John is quoting Isaiah 65 there. Isaiah 65-66 is absolutely first century, absolutely about the establishment of the church. The wiping away of tears, death, and pain is symbolic of the end of persecution of the church at the hands of the Jews as recorded throughout Acts.

And you refuse to deal with the time statements.
The church is still being persecuted.

No, the Second Coming has been imminent for 1991 years. You refuse to deal with God’s longsuffering patience.

Symbolically means you cannot claim it as literal history either. There is no literal application if you are going to play the "too much symbolism" excuse. Revelation will be forever symbolic. Even your time statements of "soon" and "quickly" are merely symbolism, which applied, means always be ready.
 
Top