The dead can see , hear and know

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
The teaching below by Jesus about the dead 💀 show Calvinism to be false and how they conflate the biblical reality of dead below from Lukes gospel . Look at all the things both Lazarus and the rich man understood about spiritual things . So much for calvie talk .

Luke 16
There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.(A) 20 At his gate was laid a beggar(B)named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table.(C) Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham,(D) have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’(E)

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things,(F)but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.(G) 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them,(H) so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses(I) and the Prophets;(J) let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’(K) he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
The teaching below by Jesus about the dead 💀 show Calvinism to be false and how they conflate the biblical reality of dead below from Lukes gospel . Look at all the things both Lazarus and the rich man understood about spiritual things . So much for calvie talk .

Luke 16
There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.(A) 20 At his gate was laid a beggar(B)named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table.(C) Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham,(D) have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’(E)

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things,(F)but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.(G) 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them,(H) so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses(I) and the Prophets;(J) let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’(K) he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Is this Post meant to deny God's Efficacious Prevenient Grace?
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
Is this Post meant to deny God's Efficacious Prevenient Grace?
It’s pretty clear what Jesus taught about those who are dead, died . Why can’t we let the Bible speak for itself without bringing a certain doctrinal position into the conversation?

Do you agree or disagree with Jesus above teaching that the dead understand spiritual truth ?

Why would the rich dead man be pleading for his “ spiritual dead “ family on earth ?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
It’s pretty clear what Jesus taught about those who are dead, died . Why can’t we let the Bible speak for itself without bringing a certain doctrinal position into the conversation?

Do you agree or disagree with Jesus above teaching that the dead understand spiritual truth ?

Why would the rich dead man be pleading for his “ spiritual dead “ family on earth ?
I agree that the Dead understand Spiritual Truth. I hope you will always remember this. I also believe there are some things of God that people do not understand; because those things are Spiritually Understood. Would you say that the things of God we do understand, means that the Apostle Paul was wrong to say there are things of God we cannot understand?

I wouldn't say that one or the other spoils the other. I think the Lurkers will agree here. I would say they are Compatible Truths, which are understood through Systematic Theology...

I do not take the approach of picking one over the other, but I pick both. I would recommend to you that you also believe that the things of God are Spiritually Discerned and no one can understand them otherwise...

Remember; I am unlike any 5-Point Calvinist you have ever met. Calvinism doesn't have to be rejected, in order to believe All Truth...
 
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fltom

Well-known member
I agree that the Dead understand Spiritual Truth. I hope you will always remember this. I also believe there are some things of God that people do not understand; because those things are Spiritually Understood. Would you say that the things of God we do understand, means that the Apostle Paul was wrong to say there are things of God we cannot understand?

I wouldn't say that one or the other spoils the other. I would say they are Compatible Truths, which are understood through Systematic Theology...
Would you include the belief that Jesus is the Christ?
 

puddleglum

Well-known member
Dead cannot respond or understand, calvie talk 101.

I have never heard of any Calvinist who teaches this and it is not part of the five points of Calvinism. Your statement makes me wonder is you even know what Calvinism is. If you want to understand it I suggest you look here:

 

Dizerner

Well-known member
I have never heard of any Calvinist who teaches this and it is not part of the five points of Calvinism. Your statement makes me wonder is you even know what Calvinism is. If you want to understand it I suggest you look here:


I've heard lots of Calvinists say this.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
I have heard lots of professing Christians say things that contradict the Bible. This just proves that there are false Calvinists as well as false Christians.

Do you think every Calvinist that preaches the inability of the spiritually dead is a false Calvinist?

That would be almost every Calvinist I've ever listened to.

Pretty radical claim...
 
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