What? The problem is your reading.
The dead can see , hear and know
- Thread starter Johnnybgood
- Start date
You didn't answer. Are "bad things," a subset of "all things?
Also "bad" does not mean "evil" to me. For how long has "bad" meant "evil" to you??
Simpletruther
Well-known member
What teaching do you think denies is this?The teaching below by Jesus about the deadshow Calvinism to be false and how they conflate the biblical reality of dead below from Lukes gospel . Look at all the things both Lazarus and the rich man understood about spiritual things . So much for calvie talk .
Luke 16
There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.(A) 20 At his gate was laid a beggar(B)named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table.(C) Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham,(D) have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’(E)
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things,(F)but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.(G) 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them,(H) so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses(I) and the Prophets;(J) let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’(K) he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Simpletruther
Well-known member
Where did this rich man respond?
And I don't know about others, but I think it's obvious dead unbelievers can understand the Bible. They can grasp theology intellectually. But they cannot discern the beauty of it.
Now, you do realize that if Calvinism (the actual belief) is true, you are going to have to answer to God Himself for what you said here, right?
Dizerner
Well-known member
If Calvinism is true, he had no choice about it.
He was decreed before time to do it.
What I am saying is you lied in your representation of Calvin, and besmirched God, and if the actual belief of Calvinism is true, you will have to answer to God for saying that if Calvinism is true, that makes Him a sinner.
Dizerner
Well-known member
That is completely possible. You see, every time I read something like this, all I can see is that the person writing it believes that God exists on the same level that we do. You don't see God as the Creator, and you don't see us as His property, having been created by Him. The relationship that exists between men is on the same level, however, a relationship between man and God is on a completely different level. God and men have NOTHING in common. God is Creator, we are created. God exists in eternity, we exist in time. We exist within the creation, God does not find His existence within creation. There is nothing similar between us and God, except that we were created in His image. One belief is that this image is our ability to reason and use logic. We are God's property, and He can do whatever He wants to us and it can never be considered sin, because we are His property. So if He determined you would sin, and what you would sin, that's fine. He owns you. He can do whatever He pleases. You have to understand exactly who God is, or you will never be able to set proper limit, or boundaries on just what life is. Those limits or boundaries may not reflect reality, but that is not the intent. They just set the boundaries of what can be, within given constraints.
Consider King David. He wanted to build a temple to God. What did God tell him? No, you cannot build the temple because you (David) have blood on your hands. You will notice how God never brings up that it is because of God that David had blood on his hands. Why not? It didn't matter. David was still held 100% responsible. It was blood on HIS hands. How it happened never comes up, because it doesn't matter. Why not? Because it is God, and God owns David as Creator. Even King David understood.
The limits of all there is includes the possibility that God is deterministic and has determined EVERYTHING. We are talking about limits. It is a mathematical term where the numbers you are using may get close to the given limit, but never reach it. So everything in between is fair game. God may be deterministic, and He may not be. Does it change anything for our understanding? No, because those limits exist within given constraints.
I add one constraint to what I wrote above. I walked away and remember Uriah. I know that this is not mentioned in relation to David and building the temple, however, that is a sin that was perpetrated by David, and could very well be what God was talking about. I bring this up because I am trying to be exact in what I am saying. As I said, I am not die hard deterministic, but understand that given constraints and limits, it actually does exist within the realm of possibility.
Last edited:
Dizerner
Well-known member
The problem with a deterministic God, is not that he couldn't be if he wanted to be—it's that it makes him the author of evil and not maximally loving.
Both of these the Bible denies, hence God cannot be deterministic.
Indeed Determinism paints God in manner which is contrary to his nature
Why if Calvinism is true God determined those words
How does bad things exist without evil? Bad and evil are synonyms.
This earth was subjected to sin because of the fall of man. Bad things entered this world through Satan.
Do you expect bad things in heaven? Will God continue to use bad things in heaven?
Your claims fail at many many levels.
I do believe God determines certain things. That certainly doesn't mean that God is the author/originator of all things. God has made man with the capacity and capability to create things of his own.
It would seem that you have a high opinion of yourself.
Yes. I did.
"All things" in Romans 8:28 does not include evil/bad things. I've said that several times now. I hope you pay attention soon.
Theo1689
Well-known member
I told you this earlier. I've just been asking that you apply your own beliefs to Romans 8:28. There are more than one class of "things".
Theo1689
Well-known member
I really don't care about your bankrupt opinion.
You are not the ultimate "authority" on truth.
Get over yourself.
I have.
And I don't need your "advice".
Get over yourself.
That doesn't help your contradiction.
Have a nice day.
I never made a contradiction. That is your false claim.