The dead can see , hear and know

Tercon

Well-known member
The teaching below by Jesus about the dead 💀 show Calvinism to be false and how they conflate the biblical reality of dead below from Lukes gospel . Look at all the things both Lazarus and the rich man understood about spiritual things . So much for calvie talk .

Luke 16
There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.(A) 20 At his gate was laid a beggar(B)named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table.(C) Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham,(D) have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’(E)

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things,(F)but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.(G) 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them,(H) so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses(I) and the Prophets;(J) let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’(K) he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Were Lazarus and his brothers being called "dead" because they are spiritually dead or physically dead?
 

fltom

Well-known member
Where did this rich man respond?

And I don't know about others, but I think it's obvious dead unbelievers can understand the Bible. They can grasp theology intellectually. But they cannot discern the beauty of it.
Matt Slick and J.D.Martin agree with you

they can also believe and be made alive

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
 

Howie

Well-known member
How does bad things exist without evil? Bad and evil are synonyms.
You're not answering my question what are you afraid of?

Here it is again: do honestly believe that "bad / evil things" are not a subset of "all things" in Rom 8:28?

If you do, your theology is quite silly.

This earth was subjected to sin because of the fall of man. Bad things entered this world through Satan.
Book, chapter and verse, please?

Do you expect bad things in heaven?
I believe, I believe what you believe about that. Tell me, what you believe about and we'll see.

Will God continue to use bad things in heaven?
I believe, I believe what you believe about that. Tell me, what you believe about and we'll see.
Your claims fail at many many levels.
Your theology fails completely.
 

Howie

Well-known member
Matt Slick and J.D.Martin agree with you

they can also believe and be made alive

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
That's probably why they don't believe it -- because they understand. LOL
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
And God decreed him to lie.

So he had no choice about lying or not.

Non-Calvinists continue to conflate "choice" and "deterrminism".
They are not the same thing.

The problem with a deterministic God, is not that he couldn't be if he wanted to be—it's that it makes him the author of evil and not maximally loving.

Both of these the Bible denies, hence God cannot be deterministic.

The Bible NEVER describes God as "maximally loving".

And even if it did, even YOU don't believe God is "maximally loving", since He doesn't show 100% love for anyone (except perhaps Christ). God COULD have loved those in Hell more, and prevented them from being in Hell. Since He didn't, you don't believe God is "maximally loving".
 

Simpletruther

Well-known member
Matt Slick and J.D.Martin agree with you

they can also believe and be made alive

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
"Is passed" some translations render it has past.

Past tense. Regeneration already happened before belief.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
And even if it did, even YOU don't believe God is "maximally loving", since He doesn't show 100% love for anyone (except perhaps Christ). God COULD have loved those in Hell more, and prevented them from being in Hell. Since He didn't, you don't believe God is "maximally loving".

Maximally loving without sacrificing his other attributes. This means God does love as much as he can without violating own worth.

It is our own selfish desire that makes us think God allowing the lost to go to hell is never compatible with love.

We call God a "monster" for simply putting his own worth above the welfare of the lost—this is how evil our heart is.
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
Maximally loving without sacrificing his other attributes. This means God does love as much as he can without violating own worth.

It is our own selfish desire that makes us think God allowing the lost to go to hell is never compatible with love.

We call God a "monster" for simply putting his own worth above the welfare of the lost—this is how evil our heart is.
If God put his own worth before the welfare of the lost, he would have never went to the cross.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
If God put his own worth before the welfare of the lost, he would have never went to the cross.

That's not true.

The Cross did not violate God's worth, it upheld it.

The whole reason for the suffering is to judge sin and vindicate holiness in a maximally gracious way.
 

fltom

Well-known member
"Is passed" some translations render it has past.

Past tense. Regeneration already happened before belief.
No

has passed in relation to shall not come into condemnation

Ck context

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

It is upon hearing that one shall live
 

fltom

Well-known member
That's probably why they don't believe it -- because they understand. LOL
You stated

" it's obvious dead unbelievers can understand the Bible. "

and I stated

Matt Slick and J.D. martin agreed with that

and

So are you agreeing the unbeliever can understand the gospel?

so how do you go to stating


Of course not. Read!!!!

maybe you better read because you are contradicting yourself
 

Simpletruther

Well-known member
No

has passed in relation to shall not come into condemnation

Ck context

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

It is upon hearing that one shall live
No verse 25 is a transition to a related topic. The context:

25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.


You see that? He was referring to the resurrection of the physically death unto life or judgement.
 

Howie

Well-known member
You stated



and I stated

Matt Slick and J.D. martin agreed with that

and

So are you agreeing the unbeliever can understand the gospel?

so how do you go to stating



maybe you better read because you are contradicting yourself
LOL. You've just got to argue about something, don't you.

When you do this, you confirm my belief that you do not know what scripture, or anything that's written, means. I thank you for that confirmation.
 

Simpletruther

Well-known member
Maximally loving without sacrificing his other attributes. This means God does love as much as he can without violating own worth.

It is our own selfish desire that makes us think God allowing the lost to go to hell is never compatible with love.

We call God a "monster" for simply putting his own worth above the welfare of the lost—this is how evil our heart is.
And this same sort of rationale works for the Calvinist. Yet you accuse of of denying his maximal love.
 
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