The dead can see , hear and know

eternomade

Well-known member
"Dead" needs to be defined. Are you speaking of spiritually or physically dead?

A physically dead person cannot wave their hand for help. They cannot do anything physically.

A spirituality dead person is living physically, but has no ability to believe the Gospel. They have no ability for spiritual things.

Every sinner ever born starts being spiritually dead, unable to believe the Gospel. They remain this way unless they are in Christ.

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Romans 3:10‭-‬18 KJV
 

Howie

Well-known member
The teaching below by Jesus about the dead 💀 show Calvinism to be false and how they conflate the biblical reality of dead below from Lukes gospel . Look at all the things both Lazarus and the rich man understood about spiritual things . So much for calvie talk .

Luke 16
There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.(A) 20 At his gate was laid a beggar(B)named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table.(C) Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham,(D) have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’(E)

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things,(F)but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.(G) 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them,(H) so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses(I) and the Prophets;(J) let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’(K) he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Oy vey. That's too funny.

Misunderstand / misuse Scripture, much? 🙂
 

fltom

Well-known member
Oy vey. That's too funny.

Misunderstand / misuse Scripture, much? 🙂
These should do

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
 

David1701

Well-known member
The teaching below by Jesus about the dead 💀 show Calvinism to be false and how they conflate the biblical reality of dead below from Lukes gospel . Look at all the things both Lazarus and the rich man understood about spiritual things . So much for calvie talk .

Luke 16
There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.(A) 20 At his gate was laid a beggar(B)named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table.(C) Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham,(D) have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’(E)

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things,(F)but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.(G) 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them,(H) so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses(I) and the Prophets;(J) let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’(K) he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
The rich man understood spiritual things, did he? I don't think so...

He knew what he was experiencing, which took no spiritual insight whatever; but, the one thing in this passage that did take spiritual insight, he got completely wrong. He thought that, if Lazarus went to his family, to warn them, they would repent at this miracle; but, Abraham tells him that if people do not heed the Bible, then they will not listen to someone, even if he has risen from the dead.

Quit the insulting "calvie talk" nonsense, since it is your post that is in error, and obviously so.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
The teaching below by Jesus about the dead 💀 show Calvinism to be false and how they conflate the biblical reality of dead below from Lukes gospel . Look at all the things both Lazarus and the rich man understood about spiritual things . So much for calvie talk .

Luke 16
There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.(A) 20 At his gate was laid a beggar(B)named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table.(C) Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham,(D) have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’(E)

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things,(F)but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.(G) 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them,(H) so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses(I) and the Prophets;(J) let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’(K) he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
What makes you think those who die physically cannot understand anymore when they are face to face with the Spiritual?
Heb_9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

who on earth claimed that the rich man was still spiritually dead, when his spirit found itself in hades.

The claim is spiritually dead people who are still physically alive do not have a clue spiritually because their spirit has not been born again or made alive in Christ.

So why you have to make stuff up is beyond me. Seems like you just like to do it in general?
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
What makes you think those who die physically cannot understand anymore when they are face to face with the Spiritual?
Heb_9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

who on earth claimed that the rich man was still spiritually dead, when his spirit found itself in hades.

The claim is spiritually dead people who are still physically alive do not have a clue spiritually because their spirit has not been born again or made alive in Christ.

So why you have to make stuff up is beyond me. Seems like you just like to do it in general?
Amen. He is one to bring up conflating. Lol
 

fltom

Well-known member
The rich man understood spiritual things, did he? I don't think so...

He knew what he was experiencing, which took no spiritual insight whatever; but, the one thing in this passage that did take spiritual insight, he got completely wrong. He thought that, if Lazarus went to his family, to warn them, they would repent at this miracle; but, Abraham tells him that if people do not heed the Bible, then they will not listen to someone, even if he has risen from the dead.

Is this not the bible

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

why then do Calvinist reverse the order and but spiritual life before faith
 

Carbon

Well-known member
The teaching below by Jesus about the dead 💀 show Calvinism to be false and how they conflate the biblical reality of dead below from Lukes gospel . Look at all the things both Lazarus and the rich man understood about spiritual things . So much for calvie talk .

Luke 16
There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.(A) 20 At his gate was laid a beggar(B)named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table.(C) Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham,(D) have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’(E)

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things,(F)but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.(G) 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them,(H) so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses(I) and the Prophets;(J) let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’(K) he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Another silly thread? 😎
 

Carbon

Well-known member
I have never heard of any Calvinist who teaches this and it is not part of the five points of Calvinism. Your statement makes me wonder is you even know what Calvinism is. If you want to understand it I suggest you look here:

Well that’s just it, he doesn’t understand Calvinism. 🙂
 

David1701

Well-known member
It’s pretty clear what Jesus taught about those who are dead, died . Why can’t we let the Bible speak for itself without bringing a certain doctrinal position into the conversation?

Do you agree or disagree with Jesus above teaching that the dead understand spiritual truth ?

Why would the rich dead man be pleading for his “ spiritual dead “ family on earth ?
The spiritually dead do not understand spiritual truth. This is biblical.

The rich man pleaded for his physical family on earth because he didn't want them to suffer as he was suffering, no doubt having been told that he was in the tormenting part of Hades, due to his sin and unbelief.
 

fltom

Well-known member
The spiritually dead do not understand spiritual truth. This is biblical.

The rich man pleaded for his physical family on earth because he didn't want them to suffer as he was suffering, no doubt having been told that he was in the tormenting part of Hades, due to his sin and unbelief.
No it is not

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
 
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