The Death of Judas

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Bible critics and skeptics love to point out discrepancies in the Bible. One alleged contradiction is that of the differing accounts of the death of Judas. One version of the death of Judas comes from Matthew 27:5:
Throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed, and he went and hanged himself.
The other version is found in Acts 1:18:
(Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his wickedness, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle, and all his bowels gushed out.
Never at a loss for words, Christian apologists meld these two accounts into one. Their single, harmonious story is that Judas did hang himself only to find himself falling when the rope broke. Upon hitting the ground, he was disemboweled from the impact.

How likely is this rope-breaking story to be true? There are some obvious problems with the apologists' version of the death of Judas. One difficulty is that it is found nowhere in scripture. Granted, the story could be implied by the Bible, but I don't even see that much. It seems unlikely to me that Matthew and Luke would leave out major details of this story like the disembowelment and the hanging, respectively.

Another problem is that an incident like falling from a broken noose is very unlikely to result in a headlong fall and disembowelment. Most people who are hanged are hanged by the neck. In that position a fall is far more likely to be feet first rather than headfirst! Did Judas hang himself from by his ankles? Besides, if he fell headlong, then no doubt he would have landed on his head which probably wouldn't disembowel him.

Anyway, I think it's best for apologists to concede that we just don't know for sure how Judas died. Doing so I think is preferable to concocting cockamamy stories that will leave unbelievers scoffing at our desperation.
 
Bible critics and skeptics love to point out discrepancies in the Bible. One alleged contradiction is that of the differing accounts of the death of Judas. One version of the death of Judas comes from Matthew 27:5:

The other version is found in Acts 1:18:

Never at a loss for words, Christian apologists meld these two accounts into one. Their single, harmonious story is that Judas did hang himself only to find himself falling when the rope broke. Upon hitting the ground, he was disemboweled from the impact.

How likely is this rope-breaking story to be true? There are some obvious problems with the apologists' version of the death of Judas. One difficulty is that it is found nowhere in scripture. Granted, the story could be implied by the Bible, but I don't even see that much. It seems unlikely to me that Matthew and Luke would leave out major details of this story like the disembowelment and the hanging, respectively.

Another problem is that an incident like falling from a broken noose is very unlikely to result in a headlong fall and disembowelment. Most people who are hanged are hanged by the neck. In that position a fall is far more likely to be feet first rather than headfirst! Did Judas hang himself from by his ankles? Besides, if he fell headlong, then no doubt he would have landed on his head which probably wouldn't disembowel him.

Anyway, I think it's best for apologists to concede that we just don't know for sure how Judas died. Doing so I think is preferable to concocting cockamamy stories that will leave unbelievers scoffing at our desperation.
One of the problems with your analysis is in assuming that each account must be identical to the next when each gospel account has their own focus.

The Hebrew scriptures are filled with Hebraisms and word play, and the gospel narratives are no exception. The name Judas Iscariot sounds just like Juda Sicariot which means "Jewish assassin". It's an obvious wordplay, especially for those familiar with these wordplays. Just a coincidence?

Think of it like a scientific theory. Two completely different interpretations can emerge from looking at the exact same evidence. When this happens, it isn't likely that one will just ignore their interpretation of the evidence for the sake of conformity. Authors don't write what others write. They write what they're inspired to write which is why what they write has stood the test of time.

Having said that, to then assume that a person hanging themselves with a frayed rope, or being cut down by someone couldn't end up being disemboweled as his body bounces off some rocks, or old tree stumps is a pretty feeble attempt to disprove these narratives.
 
Bible critics and skeptics love to point out discrepancies in the Bible. One alleged contradiction is that of the differing accounts of the death of Judas. One version of the death of Judas comes from Matthew 27:5:

Anyway, I think it's best for apologists to concede that we just don't know for sure how Judas died. Doing so I think is preferable to concocting cockamamy stories that will leave unbelievers scoffing at our desperation.
What should be more compelling is that he reaped the reward of iniquity and died without Jesus Christ.
As for the "alleged contradictions" that's on the "unbelieving scoffers."

As it is written in the Book of Psalm, when he is judged, let him be found guilty, And let his prayer become sin. Let his days be few, And let another take his office.
“Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.” Acts 1:20-22
 
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One of the problems with your analysis is in assuming that each account must be identical to the next when each gospel account has their own focus.
Actually, I argue in the OP that the stories of Judas' death in Matthew and Acts should not differ in major details. Of course, two different people will differ in their accounts of any event, but what is troubling if they differ in details they should not have differed about. I see those kinds of differing details in the two stories.
The Hebrew scriptures are filled with Hebraisms and word play, and the gospel narratives are no exception. The name Judas Iscariot sounds just like Juda Sicariot which means "Jewish assassin". It's an obvious wordplay, especially for those familiar with these wordplays. Just a coincidence?
That's unlikely to be a coincidence. You appear to be implying that Judas is an invented figure. If Judas is a fictional character, then of course the rope-breaking story is not historical, and apologists are wrong to use it to explain away the discrepancies in the two accounts of the death of Judas.
Think of it like a scientific theory. Two completely different interpretations can emerge from looking at the exact same evidence.
Well, I know that many people interpret what I write in ways I never intended. For example, you assumed I said that two stories must be identical to be accurate accounts of an event, but I never said nor implied that.
When this happens, it isn't likely that one will just ignore their interpretation of the evidence for the sake of conformity. Authors don't write what others write.
Authors sometimes do write what others write; it's called plagiarism. Mathew and Luke wrote much of what Mark wrote, for example.
They write what they're inspired to write which is why what they write has stood the test of time.
I'm not sure how an "inspired" writing will necessarily stand the test of time.
Having said that, to then assume that a person hanging themselves with a frayed rope, or being cut down by someone couldn't end up being disemboweled as his body bounces off some rocks, or old tree stumps is a pretty feeble attempt to disprove these narratives.
Then please offer a plausible explanation for how a hanged man ends up falling head first and is disemboweled upon impact. Did he roll when falling? If you read the OP, I already explained that such a fall would result in Judas's head striking the ground which is not likely to disembowel him.

Now you've left me confused: Do you believe the broken-rope story is plausible or not? You've defended the historicity of the story only to imply that Judas was a fictional character. If Judas's name is merely word play, then I don't see how he existed to hang and disembowel himself.
 
Bible critics and skeptics love to point out discrepancies in the Bible. One alleged contradiction is that of the differing accounts of the death of Judas. One version of the death of Judas comes from Matthew 27:5:

The other version is found in Acts 1:18:

Never at a loss for words, Christian apologists meld these two accounts into one. Their single, harmonious story is that Judas did hang himself only to find himself falling when the rope broke. Upon hitting the ground, he was disemboweled from the impact.

How likely is this rope-breaking story to be true? There are some obvious problems with the apologists' version of the death of Judas. One difficulty is that it is found nowhere in scripture. Granted, the story could be implied by the Bible, but I don't even see that much. It seems unlikely to me that Matthew and Luke would leave out major details of this story like the disembowelment and the hanging, respectively.

Another problem is that an incident like falling from a broken noose is very unlikely to result in a headlong fall and disembowelment. Most people who are hanged are hanged by the neck. In that position a fall is far more likely to be feet first rather than headfirst! Did Judas hang himself from by his ankles? Besides, if he fell headlong, then no doubt he would have landed on his head which probably wouldn't disembowel him.

Anyway, I think it's best for apologists to concede that we just don't know for sure how Judas died. Doing so I think is preferable to concocting cockamamy stories that will leave unbelievers scoffing at our desperation.
What is of utmost importance is knowing he betrayed Christ, fulfilling prophecy. Of much lesser importance is how he killed himself for the betrayal.
 
What is of utmost importance is knowing he betrayed Christ, fulfilling prophecy. Of much lesser importance is how he killed himself for the betrayal.
If the manner of Judas's death is unimportant, then why did Matthew and Luke offer details on how Judas died? I don't believe the Gospel writers were in the business of recording trivialities.
 
If the manner of Judas's death is unimportant, then why did Matthew and Luke offer details on how Judas died? I don't believe the Gospel writers were in the business of recording trivialities.
I didn't say it was unimportant. Perhaps reread what I wrote. That said, did the way Judas died have any bearing on salvation? No. What mattered was as I explained in my last comment.
 
Actually, I argue in the OP that the stories of Judas' death in Matthew and Acts should not differ in major details.
Those would be the details which you claim should be identical, no?
Of course, two different people will differ in their accounts of any event, but what is troubling if they differ in details they should not have differed about.
Why do you feel Matthew's details should not differ from Luke's?
I see those kinds of differing details in the two stories.

That's unlikely to be a coincidence. You appear to be implying that Judas is an invented figure.
When the personage responsible for betraying Jesus is given a name which sounds exactly like "Jewish assassin" what other conclusion makes more sense? Just a coincidence?
If Judas is a fictional character, then of course the rope-breaking story is not historical,
Not necessarily. However, I'm inclined to agree that the purpose of the story is more in line with each author's particular focus which isn't history at all.
and apologists are wrong to use it to explain away the discrepancies in the two accounts of the death of Judas.
Amplifying certain aspects of a story is not equivalent to a discrepancy. One author points out that Judas hangs himself. End of story. The other author points out that all of Jerusalem was aware of what happened which is an interesting claim given that suicides back then were not uncommon.

The first author simply points out that Judas died. The second author points out that there were extenuating circumstances that the first author didn't see as relevant to his narrative. When one author chooses to leave out details that detract or distract from his focus, this does not create a discrepancy in those who are not suffering from ADD.

We're asked to do the same here on this forum. We don't post whole paragraphs from someone else's post if we're not addressing those points. By your logic, this creates discrepancies because we're not addressing or reposting whole paragraphs of information which you may find integral to the discussion.
Well, I know that many people interpret what I write in ways I never intended.
Perhaps you could infer that this could be the case with these authors as well?
For example, you assumed I said that two stories must be identical to be accurate accounts of an event, but I never said nor implied that.
You claimed that the major details need to be identical. The problem is that one man's major details are another's superfluous irrelevance.
Authors sometimes do write what others write; it's called plagiarism. Mathew and Luke wrote much of what Mark wrote, for example.
This isn't the case with liturgical narratives. In other words, they're not writing books. They're taking what has become an oral tradition, and committing it to writing, and just like any thing that emerges in diverging areas, there are going to be differences in how they develop. Some people find some aspects more important than others. None of these people were selling books. Therefore, there is no plagiarism taking place.
I'm not sure how an "inspired" writing will necessarily stand the test of time.
Most often it is when it is recognized as inspired. The more people who recognize it as inspired, the more likely it is to be handed down from one generation to another.
Then please offer a plausible explanation for how a hanged man ends up falling head first and is disemboweled upon impact. Did he roll when falling? If you read the OP, I already explained
Correction: claimed.
that such a fall would result in Judas's head striking the ground which is not likely to disembowel him.
There are no details on exactly where he hanged himself. However, we do know the general landscape is quite rugged, jagged and undulating. There are cliffs. There are dead trees, dead tree stumps, etc. which are all quite conducive to tearing up a body. There are any number of explanations that could account for someone being disemboweled. To then claim that it couldn't have happened doesn't explain anything.

There is a somewhat notorious example of one of the Arquette brothers being impaled upon a tree stump while vacationing at a lake. Most people don't know about it, but it doesn't then follow that it didn't happen, nor does claiming it couldn't have happened make any sense whatsoever.
Now you've left me confused: Do you believe the broken-rope story is plausible or not?
Quite plausible, perhaps even something that has happened on numerous occasions. I personally don't ascribe to one theory over another. There any number of possible ways in which disembowelment could have occurred. It isn't difficult to imagine a despondent man tossing a rope over a limb, tying it to another limb, and then jumping out over a precipice only to have one of those branches snap causing his body to fly off in any number of directions eventually landing upon jagged rocks, tree stumps etc.

Perhaps, some children came upon his corpse, and decided to swing it around to amuse themselves and in the process decided to see how far they could send it. Perhaps, he had help from people who didn't care for his temper tantrum in the temple.
You've defended the historicity of the story only to imply that Judas was a fictional character.
I'm not defending the historicity of the story. I have maintained that that these are not primarily historical narratives, but liturgical narratives. This doesn't mean that some aspects couldn't be based upon historical events. My point is that it doesn't matter if it is based upon historical events. What matters is the author's intentions and purpose in writing them down.
If Judas's name is merely word play, then I don't see how he existed to hang and disembowel himself.
Or betray Christ either. This should be enough for most people to then return to these narratives to explore why they were actually composed in the first place. Those who do might then learn that when Jesus says "the truth will set you free" he isn't suggesting that one should base their faith upon history or historical narratives.

History is essentially in the eye of the beholder whereas the kingdom of God does not come about by observation at all.
 
You put 100 people in a room to witness an event and at the end likely you will get 100 different interpretations.

One church says this is the truth, the church across the street says No' this is the truth, the church on the next corner says you both are wrong this is the truth.
 
Bible critics and skeptics love to point out discrepancies in the Bible. One alleged contradiction is that of the differing accounts of the death of Judas. One version of the death of Judas comes from Matthew 27:5:

The other version is found in Acts 1:18:

Never at a loss for words, Christian apologists meld these two accounts into one. Their single, harmonious story is that Judas did hang himself only to find himself falling when the rope broke. Upon hitting the ground, he was disemboweled from the impact.

How likely is this rope-breaking story to be true? There are some obvious problems with the apologists' version of the death of Judas. One difficulty is that it is found nowhere in scripture. Granted, the story could be implied by the Bible, but I don't even see that much. It seems unlikely to me that Matthew and Luke would leave out major details of this story like the disembowelment and the hanging, respectively.

Another problem is that an incident like falling from a broken noose is very unlikely to result in a headlong fall and disembowelment. Most people who are hanged are hanged by the neck. In that position a fall is far more likely to be feet first rather than headfirst! Did Judas hang himself from by his ankles? Besides, if he fell headlong, then no doubt he would have landed on his head which probably wouldn't disembowel him.

Anyway, I think it's best for apologists to concede that we just don't know for sure how Judas died. Doing so I think is preferable to concocting cockamamy stories that will leave unbelievers scoffing at our desperation.
Luke says that Judas fell into a field and that his body ruptured.....did that happen as he was simply walking along the path? Perhaps we should add some height to the fall....like a rope.
Perhaps there was a little decomposition going on???

Will I concede that we just don't know for sure how Judas died...sure why not? We were not there. But the bible does give us a lot of clues as to what happened.
Were you there to say it didn't happen the way the bible paints a probable picture of it?
 
The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.
You put 100 people in a room to witness an event and at the end likely you will get 100 different interpretations.

One church says this is the truth, the church across the street says No' this is the truth, the church on the next corner says you both are wrong this is the truth.
Welcome to Gary's gnostic world.

Warnings Against Denying the Son
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.
21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.
22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.
23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
 
The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.
Your wold has not passed away, you are the sinner in it as you say that you are. I am of Christ who is without sin.
Welcome to Gary's gnostic world.
Welcome to Gary's world that is of Christ.

Welcome to Jon's world that the ways of Jesus Christ in the Father is gnosticism.
Warnings Against Denying the Son
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
And you have gone out for to you they are gnostic.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.
I do, but to you His ways is gnosticism as you keep accusing God in His ways to the like Him is of.
21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.
Only those who see the ways of Jesus in the Father as lies and gnosticism are the liars.
22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ.
And you deny Jesus is the Christ for you think he was a god instead, and accuse Jesus who was of Christ, Gods anointing, as a gnostic heretic.
Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.
Yes, and you deny them both for to you Jesus was your god ad the God who came to Jesus in Matt 3:16 is a gnostic lie for you that you keep stating of Him in every post.
23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
And you defiantly deny the son for you think the son was god and the teacher God sent to lead you to Him was a gnostic heretic as you keep stating of His ways is gnosticism. .
 
Bible critics and skeptics love to point out discrepancies in the Bible. One alleged contradiction is that of the differing accounts of the death of Judas. One version of the death of Judas comes from Matthew 27:5:

The other version is found in Acts 1:18:

Never at a loss for words, Christian apologists meld these two accounts into one. Their single, harmonious story is that Judas did hang himself only to find himself falling when the rope broke. Upon hitting the ground, he was disemboweled from the impact.

How likely is this rope-breaking story to be true? There are some obvious problems with the apologists' version of the death of Judas. One difficulty is that it is found nowhere in scripture. Granted, the story could be implied by the Bible, but I don't even see that much. It seems unlikely to me that Matthew and Luke would leave out major details of this story like the disembowelment and the hanging, respectively.

Another problem is that an incident like falling from a broken noose is very unlikely to result in a headlong fall and disembowelment. Most people who are hanged are hanged by the neck. In that position a fall is far more likely to be feet first rather than headfirst! Did Judas hang himself from by his ankles? Besides, if he fell headlong, then no doubt he would have landed on his head which probably wouldn't disembowel him.

Anyway, I think it's best for apologists to concede that we just don't know for sure how Judas died. Doing so I think is preferable to concocting cockamamy stories that will leave unbelievers scoffing at our desperation.
Theoretically, Judas may had other money than 30 coins to buy the field. "6He said this, not because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief, and having charge of the moneybag he used to help himself to what was put into it." "29Some thought that, because Judas had the moneybag, Jesus was telling him, “Buy what we need for the feast,” or that he should give something to the poor. "
Also tree may been fairly high so Judas's body may have tumbled...
 
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Only those who see the ways of Jesus in the Father as lies and gnosticism are the liars.
Who is a liar? The one who denies that Jesus is the Christ. 1 John 2:22
And you deny Jesus is the Christ for you think he was a god instead, and accuse Jesus who was of Christ, Gods anointing, as a gnostic heretic. Yes, and you deny them both
Whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 1 John 2;23
And you defiantly deny the son for you think the son... as you keep stating of His ways is gnosticism. .
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. 1 John 4:14
 
Who is a liar? The one who denies that Jesus is the Christ. 1 John 2:22
Amen.
Whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 1 John 2;23
Amen
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. 1 John 4:14
Amen, and I followed the one who can save me to the One Who did save me, same One who saved Jesus in Matt 3:16 that GHod sent out from Matt 3:16 to lead you to His salvation. But until you follow Jesus to His salvation you go without.
 
JonHawk said:
Who is a liar? The one who denies that Jesus is the Christ. 1 John 2:22
JonHawk said:
Whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 1 John 2:23
JonHawk said:
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. 1 John 4:14
Amen, and I followed the one who can save me to the One Who did save me, same One who saved Jesus in Matt 3:16 that GHod sent out from Matt 3:16 to lead you to His salvation. But until you follow Jesus to His salvation you go without.
Salvation is found in Jesus. Acts 4:11-12
God exalted him to his own right hand as Lord and Savior; Acts 5:31

His glory is great in Your salvation; Honor and majesty You have placed upon Him. Hebrews 1:3
For You have made him most blessed forever; Ps 21:5-6 Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord! Psalm 118:26 Matthew 21:9
 
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Salvation is found in Jesus. Acts 4:11-12
No salvation is found in the One who saved Jesus in Matt 3:16. But it is found in Jesus as well. See Matt 3:16.
God exalted him to his own right hand as Lord and Savior; Acts 5:31
Just as He does us all who has received the same as Jesus did from Him.
His glory is great in Your salvation; Honor and majesty You have placed upon Him. Hebrews 1:3
His salvation of me is my glory.
For You have made him most blessed forever; Ps 21:5-6 Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord! Psalm 118:26 Matthew 21:9
Amen the same Lord Jesus obeyed and received, see Matt 3:16, is the same One who saved me.
 
I didn't say it was unimportant. Perhaps reread what I wrote.
Thanks for the clarification, but when you described the details of the death of Judas as "of much lesser importance" I assumed you used that phrase as a synonym for unimportant, a common equivalence in colloquial English.
That said, did the way Judas died have any bearing on salvation? No.
I must disagree. Our salvation depends on the truth of scripture. It's not prudent, in my opinion, to just dismiss Biblical quandaries with a wave of the hand whenever they are difficult or impossible to resolve. I think it's better in such cases to admit that we don't know how to resolve some discrepancies.
 
did the way Judas died have any bearing on salvation? No.
If he had simply died of old age, the narrative wouldn't have provided us with anything close to what we have now. We wouldn't be able to compare how Peter deals with his own betrayal of Christ versus Judas' solution.

What if Judas had approached Christ to ask for forgiveness? You don't think that would have had any bearing on one's salvation, perhaps you don't think it would have any bearing on his salvation either.

More importantly, you're effectively claiming that those lines of scripture are uninspired and unnecessary.
 
Salvation is found in Jesus. Acts 4:11-12
God exalted him to his own right hand as Lord and Savior; Acts 5:31

His glory is great in Your salvation; Honor and majesty You have placed upon Him. Hebrews 1:3
For You have made him most blessed forever; Ps 21:5-6 Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord! Psalm 118:26 Matthew 21:9
No salvation is found in the One who saved Jesus in Matt 3:16.
Nor is there salvation in any other.
But it is found in Jesus as well. See Matt 3:16.
But let your “Yes” be “Yes,” and your “No,” “No,” lest you fall into judgment. James 5:12
His salvation of me is my glory.
For God did not appoint us to damnation, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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