The Death of Judas

[Our Lord's God]

Are you speaking of the adoption as sons Paul wrote about? Romans 8 explains that. It is when we get our new bodies.

Is that also what Galatians 4:4-6 is about?

 

[Alexander the adequate]

Is that also what Galatians 4:4-6 is about?

Absolutely. the word appears 5 times in the New Testament and it means the same thing in each case,
It is a reference to when a son became of age to go into his father's business. Then metaphorically it means when we go into our Father's business of reigning.

 

[Our Lord's God]

Absolutely. the word appears 5 times in the New Testament and it means the same thing in each case,

So according to you, Galatians 4:5 is about the redemption of the body.

Did God beget you or adopt you? Are you born of God or adopted by God?

It is a reference to when a son became of age to go into his father's business. Then metaphorically it means when we go into our Father's business of reigning.

Why do you routinely choose to just make it up as you go along?

4 Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, 2 but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. 3 So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

Redemption of the body?

 

[Alexander the adequate]

So according to you, Galatians 4:5 is about the redemption of the body.

Did God beget you or adopt you? Are you born of God or adopted by God?



Why do you routinely choose to just make it up as you go along?

4 Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, 2 but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. 3 So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

Redemption of the body?

I unerstand why you think i made this up as it is not well known that the Greeks and Romans had a ceremony where their son basically became an adult and entered his father's business. This is a fact of history and the single Greek word translated "the adoption as sons" has that meaning. Again, I can understand when you are ignorant of this it is easy to think i made it up. But I did not.
So you take that Greek word and what it means and Paul uses it symbolically to mean what happens at the time when we receive our new bodies and begin to join our Father in His business of reigning. We will reign with Him.
And while we do not yet reign with Him, we have the Spirit which is a promise of what is coming. Since the Greek word only appears 5 times, including once in reference to Jews having that promise before the Christians got it, it is not that difficult to research what Paul was saying.

NOTICE: in the passage you posted above, prior to receiving the adoption as sons, the boy is already an heir. That means he is already legally the man's son and has an inheritance, which is described as the adoption as sons. Does a legal heir need to be adopted? Of course not? Therefore this adoption as sons is not what we would call adoption, as no one adopts their own children.

 

[Our Lord's God]

I unerstand why you think i made this up as it is not well known that the Greeks and Romans had a ceremony where their son basically became an adult and entered his father's business. This is a fact of history and the single Greek word translated "the adoption as sons" has that meaning.

What the ancients Greeks did is not the problem. The problem is all the other stuff you just make up on the fly.

Again, I can understand when you are ignorant of this it is easy to think i made it up. But I did not.

Now you resort to your fantasies.

So you take that Greek word and what it means and Paul uses it synbolically to mean what happens at the time when we receive our new bodies and begin to join our Father in His business of reigning. We will reign with Him.

Galatians 4:5 says nothing about reigning with Christ. In fact, Paul is telling these Galatians they are already adopted sons of God.

And has it occurred to you that you are yourself insisting that you are not God's son and won't be adopted as God's son until the redemption of the body. Has that simple thing even occurred to you?

And while we do not yet reign with Him, we have the Spirit which is a promise of what is coming. Since the Greek word only appears 5 times, including once in reference to Jews having that promise before the Christians got it, it is not that difficult to research what Paul was saying.

Neither is the fact that believers walking this earth are begotten of God and that's why they are His children - He begat them and they are born of God with Jesus being the firstborn of many brothers.

NOTICE: in the passage you posted above, prior to receiving the adoption as sons, the boy is already an heir. That means he is already legally the man's son and has an inheritance, which is described as the adoption as sons. Does a legal heir need to be adopted? Of course not? Therefore this adoption as sons is not what we would call adoption, as no one adopts their own children.

So now you are arguing he is a son before he is adopted as a son and then you argue this adoption of sons is not adoption of sons since no one adopts their own children?

So on one hand, you are telling us that you are not making any sense whatsoever but somehow on the other hand, it seems you have convinced yourself that you are making sense.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

What the ancients Greeks did is not the problem. The problem is all the other stuff you just make up on the fly.



Now you resort to your fantasies.



Galatians 4:5 says nothing about reigning with Christ. In fact, Paul is telling these Galatians they are already adopted sons of God.

And has it occurred to you that you are yourself insisting that you are not God's son and won't be adopted as God's son until the redemption of the body. Has that simple thing even occurred to you?



Neither is the fact that believers walking this earth are begotten of God and that's why they are His children - He begat them and they are born of God with Jesus being the firstborn of many brothers.



So now you are arguing he is a son before he is adopted as a son and then you argue this adoption of sons is not adoption of sons since no one adopts their own children?

So on one hand, you are telling us that you are not making any sense whatsoever but somehow on the other hand, it seems you have convinced yourself that you are making sense.

I would suggest you reread your own post. You waver between already being a son and needing to be aopted in order to be a son. Which is it? Are we sons because we have been born again, or will we become sons when we are adopted by God?
Get yourself a clear answer for that, and take one position or the other instead of wavering between two positions. Are we sons of God in Christ NOW? Or is that a future event?

ANd yes, Gal 4 does not tell the whole story. I suggested that you read all 5 contexts where the word is used and see what comes to light for you.
And really? Are you actually denying that wewill reign with God because Gal 4 does not state it?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Adopting as fact whatever you imagined up is never a good idea.

I know. You may wish to explain that to Bob. He has a habit of making things up. He also thinks that people falling from a noose fall headfirst but can't explain why.

Imagination is only useful as a means to speculate what a text might mean. It itself never amounts to fact.

True, but use of the imagination can lead to the discovery of new knowledge.

Your imagination didn't serve you well here. I have seen lots of solitary trees standing in the middle of fields. I have seen far more groves of trees in fields.

I took another look at Acts 1, and verse 18 only says that Judas purchased a field but not that he died in that field. So it's not clear that Peter is saying that Judas fell in that field. I'll then retract my critique that a field is an unlikely place to be hanged. It is an unlikely place to be hanged, but that fact is irrelevant to how and where Judas died.

 

[Our Lord's God]

I would suggest you reread your own post. You waver between already being a son and needing to be aopted in order to be a son.

No I don't. I am begotten of God and He is my own Father.

Is that clear enough?

Your own confusion does not amount to my error. It is clear that this is somehow you don't understand and need to learn.

Which is it? Are we sons because we have been born again,

Is it not obvious to you that those who are born of God are already His sons? Why is that not obvious to you?

or will we become sons when we are adopted by God?
Get yourself a clear answer for that, and take one position or the other instead of wavering between two positions.

Nobody is wavering about anything. Your words simply tell us that you have a circus of confusion happening in your own mind right now.

Are we sons of God in Christ NOW? Or is that a future event?

What does your Bible say? The answer to this question is obvious to every true believer. They don't even need a Bible to know it. Why then is it not obvious to you?

ANd yes, Gal 4 does not tell the whole story. I suggested that you read all 5 contexts where the word is used and see what comes to light for you.

In other words, you stick passages of the Bible together at will like you would a box of legos. Yes, I have noticed.

And really? Are you actually denying that wewill reign with God because Gal 4 does not state it?

Are you now hearing voices or something?

 

[Alexander the adequate]

No I don't. I am begotten of God and He is my own Father.

Is that clear enough?

Your own confusion does not amount to my error. It is clear that this is somehow you don't understand and need to learn.



Is it not obvious to you that those who are born of God are already His sons? Why is that not obvious to you?



Nobody is wavering about anything. Your words simply tell us that you have a circus of confusion happening in your own mind right now.



What does your Bible say? The answer to this question is obvious to every true believer. They don't even need a Bible to know it. Why then is it not obvious to you?




In other words, you stick passages of the Bible together at will like you would a box of legos. Yes, I have noticed.




Are you now hearing voices or something?

Again, are we sons of God when we are indwelt by Christ or do we get adopted in the future to become sons?
Which is it?

 

[Our Lord's God]

Again, are we sons of God when we are indwelt by Christ

How could I have been more clear in my last post is beyond me.

We are children of God when we are begotten of God by His Spirit.

What is not clear to you?

or do we get adopted in the future to become sons?
Which is it?

 

[Alexander the adequate]

How could I have been more clear in my last post is beyond me.

We are children of God when we are begotten of God by His Spirit.

What is not clear to you?

so why do you keep answering only half of the question? You have done it enough times that it is obvious you are doing it on purpose. So I will ask both questions for the third or fourth time. Please answer them both or perhaps others can answer if ou choose not to.
1. Do we become sons of God when we are indwelt by Christ
2. Do we become adopted sons on resurrection day?

How can it be both?

 

[Our Lord's God]

so why do you keep answering only half of the question? You have done it enough times that it is obvious you are doing it on purpose. So I will ask both questions for the third or fourth time. Please answer them both or perhaps others can answer if ou choose not to.
1. Do we become sons of God when we are indwelt by Christ

If by this you mean when we are born of God, YES.

That just might also be why the Bible routinely refers to current believers as children of God.

2. Do we become adopted sons on resurrection day?

How can it be both?

Now, we are sons of God with respect to what we do. See Romans 8:14.
Then, we will be sons of God with respect to what we are. See Romans 8:23.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

If by this you mean when we are born of God, YES.

That just might also be why the Bible routinely refers to current believers as children of God.



Now, we are sons of God with respect to what we do.
Then, we will be sons of God with respect to what we are.

You just cannot bring yourself to say a direct yes or no? And then you wonder why you cannot find rational dialogue.
1 John 3:2 "We ARE sons of God" - for you this is understood to mean it refers to what we do? What does that mean?
Continuing in the verse "When He appears we will be like Him" - and this refers to what we are?

Where do you find any language saying "we WILL BE sons of God" as opposed to we are now sons of God?
And what does the adoption as sons accomplish?

 

[Our Lord's God]

You just cannot bring yourself to say a direct yes or no?

My answer was quite clear on both accounts.

Here is it again:
1. Now, we are sons of God with respect to what we do.

if you are living according to the flesh, you must die but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Romans 8:13-14


2. Then, we will be sons of God with respect to what we are. See Romans 8:23.

And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

I don't know how I could make it more clear.

And then you wonder why you cannot find rational dialogue.
1 John 3:2 "We ARE sons of God" - for you this is understood to mean it refers to what we do? What does that mean?
Continuing in the verse "When He appears we will be like Him" - and this refers to what we are?

Where do you find any language saying "we WILL BE sons of God" as opposed to we are now sons of God?

This is where dialogue with you turns into an irrational incoherent escapade. It was YOU who claimed we will be adopted as sons at the redemption of the body.

And what does the adoption as sons accomplish?

It isn't as if God goes to an adoption agency or pretends that we are his own children born of Him when we are not. God BEGETS his children.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

This is where dialogue with you turns into an irrational incoherent escapade. It was YOU who claimed we will be adopted as sons at the redemption of the body

Nope. Never said that. It could be that is at the heart of our trouble here.
But please go back and find my quote that states "we will be adopted at the redemption of our bodies"
YOu seem intelligent, but sense I never said anything like that, makes me wonder if you are intentional in misrepresenting me.
But let me state it again for you what I actually do say about the adoption as sons.
The Greek word is used when a boy is old enough to go into his father's business. He is already a son and is not being adopted.
It is the same for us in the way Paul borrowed the term to express a truth about us. We are already sons if we have been indwelt by Christ, and those of us who are sons will, at the resurrection, experience getting a new body and entering into our Father's business which is reigning. That event is what Paul calls "the adoption as sons"

So does any of that look like I am claiming we wil be adopted?

 

[Our Lord's God]

Nope. Never said that. It could be that is at the heart of our trouble here.
But please go back and find my quote that states "we will be adopted at the redemption of our bodies"
YOu seem intelligent, but sense I never said anything like that, makes me wonder if you are intentional in misrepresenting me.

Bizarre.

But let me state it again for you what I actually do say about the adoption as sons.
The Greek word is used when a boy is old enough to go into his father's business. He is already a son and is not being adopted.
It is the same for us in the way Paul borrowed the term to express a truth about us. We are already sons if we have been indwelt by Christ, and those of us who are sons will, at the resurrection, experience getting a new body and entering into our Father's business which is reigning. That event is what Paul calls "the adoption as sons"

So does any of that look like I am claiming we wil be adopted?

Actually all of it indicates that you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

Bizarre.



Actually all of it indicates that you have no idea what you are talking about.

You quote as saying something which I never said and when I correct you, instead of an apology you say "Bizarre?"
Then I report to you what I read in a reliable source and your only response is an insult?

And you are the guy asking why there is no rational dialogue here?

 

[Gary Mac]

Give thanks to the Lord because he is good! His faithfulness lasts forever! Ps 106:1

All I have needed thy hand hath provided great is thy faithfulness

Are you speaking of the adoption as sons Paul wrote about? Romans 8 explains that. It is when we get our new bodies.

Yes . Paul made his own laws for adoption instead of being born of God by His Spirit and others we read of were, and we all today who is born of God instead of a process of adoption though the law of someones beliefs such as Paul displayed a s a sinner instead of being as Jesus was in the Father and perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect..

You cant be His perfect son without the same mind be in you who was in Christ Jesus. You dint have a clue who God is.

 

[JonHawk]

Give thanks to the Lord because he is good! His faithfulness lasts forever! Ps 106:1

JonHawk said:
The dead are a bit compromised.
Will the dead rise and praise You? Ps 88:10
The dead cannot thank You. Isa 38:18
It is the living who give thanks to You and proclaim how faithful You are. Isa 38:19

All I have needed thy hand hath provided great is thy faithfulness

Yes . Paul made his own laws for adoption instead of being born of God by His Spirit and others we read of were, and we all today who is born of God instead of a process of adoption though the law of someones beliefs such as Paul displayed a s a sinner instead of being as Jesus was in the Father and perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect..

You cant be His perfect son without the same mind be in you who was in Christ Jesus. You dint have a clue who God is.

"Dwell in Me, and I will dwell in you.
Without Me you can do nothing." John 15:4-5

Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified. 2 Cor 13:5

 

[Alexander the adequate]

Yes . Paul made his own laws for adoption instead of being born of God by His Spirit and others we read of were, and we all today who is born of God instead of a process of adoption though the law of someones beliefs such as Paul displayed a s a sinner instead of being as Jesus was in the Father and perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect..

You cant be His perfect son without the same mind be in you who was in Christ Jesus. You dint have a clue who God is.

Ok, did I already know that you think Paul makes up stuff? Hard to discuss the Bible with a person who dismisses whatever proves him wrong.