The decline of American Christianity

Beloved Daughter said:
If this should become an issue, then you are in more trouble than you even know. There is a reason that textual critics are in the business. You are not a textual critic. You don't understand Greek, Aramaic or Hebrew. The three Bibles I use are all predominantly formal equivalence. I know which manuscripts underlie the translations. The KJV has serious errors. In fact the AV1611 and the Blayney 1769 KJV don't even say the same thing. Both have emendations without a single manuscript support.

Were I to show these evidences to the average Christian in the pews, they'd likely reject the KJV. How many of them would condemn Richard Bancroft and George Abbot for their role in the act against Puritans? They wanted to make being a Puritan a capital offense punishable by death.

The Act Against Puritans (1593)

history.hanover.edu

Tell me please, do you want me to tell them that? These people translated the AV1611. Nice guys. Look them up.

You cannot demonstrate that any modern text has corrupted a single doctrine. All you folks have are untruths, half-truths, and even blatant lies. You give Christianity nothing but strife, division, and rancor.

Titus 3:9English Standard Version (ESV)

9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

1 Peter 3:15English 15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and respect.

Ephesians 4:29English Standard Version (ESV)

29 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

1 Corinthians 1:10English Standard Version (ESV)

10 I appeal to you, brothers,[a] by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

2 Timothy 2:14English Standard Version (ESV)

14 Remind them of these things, and charge them before God[a] not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.

James 1:26 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

26 If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless.


Feel free to check these verses in the AV1611 or the KJV. They say the same thing.
Click to expand...
This one really got everyone's dander up, so maybe there is some unadmitted concern that a relationship in timing (not necessarily cause/effect) does exist ... and I'm quite familiar with the history of the KJV, it's translators and their educational/theological backgrounds, the methodology involved, and the same with Westcott/Hort and the Critical Text. While I speak neither Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic, I diligently study the underlying words and definitions from the original languages through various sources (Zodhiates is my favorite NT word study resource) and have been for over 30 years.
What has caused more disunity in the church? Was there general disunity over the text of Scripture before W/H, before the proliferation of "new and improved" texts/translations? Or did people trust that the Bible was in fact THE Bible? Was there as much doubt about what God actually said and meant?
 
T-bird1971 said:
and I'm quite familiar with the history of the KJV, it's translators and their educational/theological backgrounds, the methodology involved, and the same with Westcott/Hort and the Critical Text.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm really not convinced of that.

T-bird1971 said:
What has caused more disunity in the church? Was there general disunity over the text of Scripture before W/H, before the proliferation of "new and improved" texts/translations? Or did people trust that the Bible was in fact THE Bible? Was there as much doubt about what God actually said and meant?
Click to expand...

It's a shame that you apparently don't understand the difference between "correlation" and "causation".
 
T-bird1971 said:
What has caused more disunity in the church?
Click to expand...
Do you hide behind vague or invalid questions that assume as true unproven premises or assumptions? Does your question incorrectly assume that there was supposedly unity in the church before the 1880's or 1900's when there were already the same divisions over doctrinal issues before that period?

In England, a state church had attempted to force a great deal of uniformity on believers [not scriptural unity] although its efforts ended up failing.
Efforts to force uniformity through a denial of Christian liberty or through persecution can produce disunity.

Does your question indicate that you merely speculate or that you are repeating questions based on unproven KJV-only allegations?

Many believers see KJV-onlyism or KJV-only reasoning as causing a great deal of disunity in the church.
 
T-bird1971 said:
This one really got everyone's dander up, so maybe there is some unadmitted concern that a relationship in timing (not necessarily cause/effect) does exist ... and I'm quite familiar with the history of the KJV, it's translators and their educational/theological backgrounds, the methodology involved, and the same with Westcott/Hort and the Critical Text. While I speak neither Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic, I diligently study the underlying words and definitions from the original languages through various sources (Zodhiates is my favorite NT word study resource) and have been for over 30 years.
What has caused more disunity in the church? Was there general disunity over the text of Scripture before W/H, before the proliferation of "new and improved" texts/translations? Or did people trust that the Bible was in fact THE Bible? Was there as much doubt about what God actually said and meant?
Click to expand...
Can you prove the NKJV, NASV, ESV, etc are not THE Bible as well? The Model T is a car. Can you prove my new Ford Fusion, which is much-improved ober the Model T, is not a car?
 
robycop3 said:
The Model T is a car. Can you prove my new Ford Fusion, which is much-improved ober the Model T, is not a car?
Click to expand...
Easy! All real cars have cranks to start them. Your modern perversion of a "car" does not have a crank. Ergo, your (con)Fusion is not a car! ?

(Hey, this is FUN!)
--Rich
 
T-bird1971 said:
This one really got everyone's dander up, so maybe there is some unadmitted concern that a relationship in timing (not necessarily cause/effect) does exist ... and I'm quite familiar with the history of the KJV, it's translators and their educational/theological backgrounds, the methodology involved, and the same with Westcott/Hort and the Critical Text. While I speak neither Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic, I diligently study the underlying words and definitions from the original languages through various sources (Zodhiates is my favorite NT word study resource) and have been for over 30 years.
What has caused more disunity in the church? Was there general disunity over the text of Scripture before W/H, before the proliferation of "new and improved" texts/translations? Or did people trust that the Bible was in fact THE Bible? Was there as much doubt about what God actually said and meant?
Click to expand...

I've been reading nonsensical articles by KJVO's on the internet regarding Westcott and Hort for years. These articles are lies. See for yourself:

Frequently Assaulted Quotes​

Mary​


  • Quote #2: "After leaving the monastery, we shaped our course to a little oratory which we discovered on the summit of a neighbouring hill. . . . Fortunately we found the door open. It is very small, with one kneeling place; and behind a screen was a ‘Pieta’ the size of life [i.e. a Virgin and dead Christ]. . . . Had I been alone I could have knelt there for hours." (Life and Letters of Westcott, Vol. I, pg. 81)

Westcott and Hort Resource Centre - FAQs (westcotthort.com)​

Quote #2: "After leaving the monastery, we shaped our course to a little oratory which we discovered on the summit of a neighbouring hill. . . . Fortunately we found the door open. It is very small, with one kneeling place; and behind a screen was a ‘Pieta’ the size of life [i.e. a Virgin and dead Christ]. . . . Had I been alone I could have knelt there for hours." (Life and Letters of Westcott, Vol. I, pg. 81)
The quote originally was dug out of Westcott's writings by Seventh-Day Adventist pastor and KJV-only granddaddy Benjamin Wilkinson, in his 1930 book "Our Authorized Bible Vindicated", which was later reused by KJV-only authors J.J. Ray in "God Wrote Only One Bible" in 1955 and David Otis Fuller in "Which Bible?" in 1970. Since then, the quote has become well-used, appearing in many KJV-only publications and websites, in an attempt to show that Westcott was Catholic and/or worshipped Mary, etc. The quote comes from a letter Wescott wrote to his fiancée in 1847, when he was 22 years old and sight-seeing in the town of Ashby de la Zouch in England. The entire letter is reproduced below, with the quote in bold and important context underlined:
ASHBY-DE-LA-ZOUCH,
2nd Sunday after Epiphany, 1847.​
My dearest Mary—As I fancy that we shall go out to-morrow, I will begin my note now without a longer preface. Yesterday we had a splendid walk to the monastery,1 going the same road as you went in summer; but now all the trees and hedges are covered with a delicate white frost, and the craggy rocks seemed gigantic in the mist, and all the country looked more lovely and wild and un-English than I have ever before seen it. We went into the chapel; but I cannot say that I was so much pleased with it as before, and the reason was that I did not hear the solemn chant of those unearthly voices which seem clearly to speak of watchings and fastings, and habits of endurance and self-control which would be invaluable if society could reap their fruits; as it was, the excessive finery and meanness of the ornaments seemed ill to suit the spiritual worship which we are told should mark the true church. After this we went round the cloisters and into the Refectory, but I felt less than ever to admire their selfish life . After leaving the monastery we shaped our course to a little oratory which we discovered on the summit of a neighbouring hill, and by a little scrambling we reached it. Fortunately we found the door open. It is very small, with one kneeling-place; and behind a screen was a “Pieta” the size of life (i.e. a Virgin and dead Christ). The sculpture was painted, and such a group in such a place and at such a time was deeply impressive. I could not help thinking on the fallen grandeur of the Romish Church, on her zeal even in error, on her earnestness and self-devotion, which we might, with nobler views and a purer end, strive to imitate. Had I been alone I could have knelt there for hours. On leaving, we followed a path across beautiful rocks fringed by firs loaded with hoar-frost, and, passing by many a little deepening glen, came to the road, above which stood a large crucifix. I wish it had been a cross. I wish earnestly we had not suffered superstition to have brought that infamy on the emblem of our religion which persecution never could affix to it. But I am afraid the wish is vain.
I thought I had spoken to you of the fearful distress in Ireland (and in parts of Scotland too). I am sure you will feel as I do. I have very little money to spare, but if there is any collection I wish you would give five shillings for me, and I will pay you when I return; and let us not only think of the temporal wants of our unfortunate sister isle, but also of its spiritual degradation, which is, I am sure, closely connected with its present miseries. . . .
1 Carmelite settlement at Grâce Dieu.​
You can see from the important context throughout the letter, including context that was skipped over and replaced with the second ellipsis, that Westcott had harsh words for Catholicism. In just this short letter, he expressed that he viewed the life of a monk as "selfish", and that he believed the "Romish Church" (a derogatory term a Catholic would not use) to be "in error". He even called the crucifix "superstition" and "infamy" when compared to a plain cross. Lastly, he refers briefly to the "distress in Ireland", which is undoubtedly the severe famine that started in 1845 and lasted until 1851, resulting in the death of approximately 20% of the population. Westcott expresses that he feels this distress is "closely connected" with "its spiritual degradation" - the Irish at that time in strong opposition to the British State Church (Anglican) and growing in Catholicism, Catholics outnumbering Protestants approximately seven to one by 1861.

 
Sinse KJVOs have no actual evidence nor facts they can use to support their KJVO myth, they resort to ad-mominem attacks against their designated whipping boys, with Westcott-Hort being their faves. they completely ignore the FACTS that Dr. Wilkinsom was a CULT OFFICIAL, a personal friend of Ellen & Ebenezer White, that J. J. Ray legally but dishonestly PLAGIARIZED Dr. W's book without acknowledging him whatsoever, & that Fuller, while acknowledging W & Ray, was careful not to reveal W's CULT AFFILIATION, which was also dishonest. So, the current edition of the KJVO myth has a cultic, hishonest foundation, not to mention absolutely NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT, even in the KJV, which makes the whole doctrine false & a myth. ONLY GOD, not men, has made true doctrines of faith/worship. And plainly, He did NOT make the KJVO myth.
 
T-bird1971 said:
A quick google search indicates that the NASB was first published in 1971, followed by the NIV in 1978 with both becoming increasingly popular in the following years ... is it coincidental that the moral decay/decline in American Christianity seems to have really begun snowballing downhill shortly thereafter? Until then, most "average" regular church-going Christians had never heard of much less read a critical text translation. I'm genuinely curious as to your thoughts on this.

This thread is divisive in tone and it appears to be deliberately posted to cause disunity. I'll be watching to see if this is true.
Click to expand...
What is occurring is a condition of the heart. Read Romans 1 and 2 Timothy 3.
 
I find it a little baffling that, when people acquire a new Bible, such as the NIV which was supposed to be from a very Christian viewpoint, they somehow become less Christian. Is it possible that, in reading a fresh translation, they are instead less inclined to attend/contribute to their (former) church congregations instead?
 
Shoonra said:
I find it a little baffling that, when people acquire a new Bible, such as the NIV which was supposed to be from a very Christian viewpoint, they somehow become less Christian. Is it possible that, in reading a fresh translation, they are instead less inclined to attend/contribute to their (former) church congregations instead?
Click to expand...
Not sure what kind of Christians you know but our fellowship uses the NIV, our fellowship is Spirit filled, hungry for God's word with 5 different Bible studies going on throughout the week, serving our community with many mission outreaches including Mexico, supporters of YWAM for just a few examples, and above all, in love with Jesus Christ.
 
T-bird1971 said:
A quick google search indicates that the NASB was first published in 1971, followed by the NIV in 1978 with both becoming increasingly popular in the following years ... is it coincidental that the moral decay/decline in American Christianity seems to have really begun snowballing downhill shortly thereafter? Until then, most "average" regular church-going Christians had never heard of much less read a critical text translation. I'm genuinely curious as to your thoughts on this.

This thread is divisive in tone and it appears to be deliberately posted to cause disunity. I'll be watching to see if this is true.
Click to expand...
Please. This is laughable.

The percentage of Christians relevant to overall population has remained constant since the late 1800s. If you were looking for a cause, consider investigating the rise of Dispensationalist theology. In the early 1800s a huge explosion of sects arose that were all 1) restorationist, and 2) apocalyptic. They all believed the Church was/is corrupt (that would certainly cause an exodus) and in need of restoration (hence the name of the movement), and they all believed Jesus was coming back then. Every single one of those sects was wrong this too would easily be cause for exodus). Furthermore, these sectarian beliefs created a fundamentally divisive ethic of "we're the true church guys," (another attributable reason for exodus), and the ensuing problem of who is truly the true group proved problematic since they all proved to be wrong when it came to predicting Christ's return. Among these groups were the SDAs, the COCs, the Brethrens, the JWs, and the LDSes. All of them were fundamental shifts in historic Christianity in thought, doctrine, and practice.

If you were going to pin the decline on the 1970s you'd again best benefit from examining the Dispensationalist bestsellers of that decade. Chuck Smith, Hal Lindsay, and scores of other were making money hand over fist, spreading sectarianism (how many Calvary Chapel congregations does it take before you've got a new denomination?) and predicting the return of Christ.....

...disappointing millions of American Christians who'd believed them and leaving outsiders shaking their collective heads in incredulity that anyone would believe them in the first place.
 
It's all part of the "great falling away: God prophesied. Acceptance of LBGTQ as the "new normal", the degeneration of "worship services" into music fests, etc are all part of it. And in Europe, it's even worse. However, Christianity is growing in Asia, especially China & Japan.
 
T-bird1971 said:
A quick google search indicates that the NASB was first published in 1971, followed by the NIV in 1978 with both becoming increasingly popular in the following years ... is it coincidental that the moral decay/decline in American Christianity seems to have really begun snowballing downhill shortly thereafter? Until then, most "average" regular church-going Christians had never heard of much less read a critical text translation. I'm genuinely curious as to your thoughts on this.

This thread is divisive in tone and it appears to be deliberately posted to cause disunity. I'll be watching to see if this is true.
Click to expand...

Oh bless your heart…..
 
robycop3 said:
It's all part of the "great falling away: God prophesied. Acceptance of LBGTQ as the "new normal", the degeneration of "worship services" into music fests, etc are all part of it. And in Europe, it's even worse. However, Christianity is growing in Asia, especially China & Japan.
Click to expand...
Oh my.

Why must a discussion on a specific point turn eschatological?

Because that's what Dispensationalists do! They make EVERYTHING eschatological. Why? Because the move away from Christology and soteriology to ecclesiology and eschatology is inherent in Dispensational theology.

@T-bird1971 , I hope you're paying attention because you're watching one of the reasons the decline of American Christianity occurs right here in this thread.

@robycop3 , all the things cited in your post are very real and substantive problems, but they are not eschatological or necessarily function of prophecy, and I will suggest the first half of your post and the second half of your post 1) contradict one another with 2) the latter half refuting the former. It can't be a prophetic "great falling away" if the Church grows in most other areas (because the Church is also growing in Africa, not just Asia).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top