The decline of American Christianity

Why must a discussion on a specific point turn eschatological?

Because that's what Dispensationalists do! They make EVERYTHING eschatological. Why? Because the move away from Christology and soteriology to ecclesiology and eschatology is inherent in Dispensational theology.
I'm not trying to hijack your discussion, but I can't help but see you believe dispensationalism is a dirty word.

Do you believe watching for His imminent return violates some facet of proper Christology or soteriology, and if so, how? (Matthew 25:1-13)

Matthew 24:42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
 
I'm not trying to hijack your discussion, but I can't help but see you believe dispensationalism is a dirty word.
What do you mean by "dirty word"? Do you think that's a good way to start this exchange?
Do you believe watching for His imminent return violates some facet of proper Christology or soteriology, and if so, how? (Matthew 25:1-13)
rotflmbo! I wonder if the irony of that question is understood!

Dispensationalist say they believe in an imminent return but the truth of their eschatology is....

  • The return of Christ is divided up into several parts,
  • The great tribulation will come beforehand,
  • A temple will first be built,
  • Israel will first obtain its original geographic boundaries,
  • The Levitical priesthood will be restored,
  • Animal sacrifices will be restarted,

So the eschatology itself contradicts any claim of imminence.
Matthew 24:42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
Read the WHOLE passage because while Jesus did say no one will know the day, he also said it would happen in "this generation." Put the two together and what he said as a whole is no one in this generation will know the day, or no one will know the day, but it will happen in this generation (not that generation). I recommend everyone begin reading at Matthew 21:18 and read all the way through to Matthew 26:5. Why because that is the whole of Matthew's narrative!!! Matthew is recounting the events of a single day. It begins with Jesus' return after cleaning out the temple and concludes with the Jewish leaders planning his murder. Read it a couple of times and then ask yourself why it is you've rarely if ever heard any teacher teach it as a whole.

Furthermore, not only do Dispensationalists hold an eschatology that contradicts the doctrine of imminence, but they've also been claiming the imminent return for about 200 years and not a single one of their predictions has ever come true. 100% fail-rate and no one does anything about it.

It's not a dirty word. It's a bad theology, one rife with inconsistencies like the one just broached. If you are Dispensationalist, then the list above is known to be Dispensationalist. Therefore, if you consider these various expectations in relationship to the claim of imminence then that contradiction is obvious.
 
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Oh my.

Why must a discussion on a specific point turn eschatological?

Because that's what Dispensationalists do! They make EVERYTHING eschatological. Why? Because the move away from Christology and soteriology to ecclesiology and eschatology is inherent in Dispensational theology.

@T-bird1971 , I hope you're paying attention because you're watching one of the reasons the decline of American Christianity occurs right here in this thread.

@robycop3 , all the things cited in your post are very real and substantive problems, but they are not eschatological or necessarily function of prophecy, and I will suggest the first half of your post and the second half of your post 1) contradict one another with 2) the latter half refuting the former. It can't be a prophetic "great falling away" if the Church grows in most other areas (because the Church is also growing in Africa, not just Asia).
You can't deny that what I said was occurring IS occurring, nor that Scripture foretells a great falling away.
 
You can't deny that what I said was occurring IS occurring, nor that Scripture foretells a great falling away.
Bad things have always happened.

There's a presuppositional problem with viewing the Bible through the lens of the contemporary newscast. It fosters the practice of subjecting scripture to the worldly news, not the subjection of history to scripture. It's the cart before the horse. The facts of history is that there have been times much worse spiritually. A brief study of Rome readily and easily shows Rome MUCH more depraved than Washington DC or the whole of America. A survey of the Popes also easily and readily shows many of them much more depraved, desolate, abominable than anything we've got going on today. IF the Dispensationalist approach is correct then things are going to get much worse. We're not there yet and otherwise well-intentioned believers have their tails in knots over things that are not prophetic. Exegetically speaking, there are huge problems in Dispensationalism. I was just exposed to one of them in another thread when I was asked rhetorically by a Dispensationalist if I denied the imminence of Christ's return. It's an appalling question coming from Dispensationalists because while they claim to believe in the doctrine of imminent return, they unwaveringly teach Israel must be restored, another temple built, the Levitical priesthood restored, animal sacrifices begun, and a plethora of events and conditions that must first occur.

Christ cannot come imminently if a bunch of stuff must first occur. He can return only after those milestones. And no one seems to be aware of this contradiction!!!
You can't deny that what I said was occurring IS occurring, nor that Scripture foretells a great falling away.
You've just moved the goalposts.

This op is about the decline of American Christianity. I can agree the societal move accepting sexually deviant behavior and the politics associated therein are problems. I can agree with you that Christians should not be persuaded by either, and I can agree there is an increase in that happening, but even Washington DC (one of the largest per capita percentages of LBGTQ populations), San Fransisco, and New York are not Sodom. People who tell you otherwise do not understand either.

I can deny it is prophetic.

More importantly, the Dispensational view is that the Church is corrupt and will continue to become increasingly facile and need rescuing in the form of the rapture. It is a wretched theology that says the Church will be prevailed over by the gates of hell. Few Dispensationalist seem aware of this contradiction.



For 20 centuries the Church took the gospel into the world, subdued it and ruled over it. Christianity won over and assimilated every single competing world view it encountered and it did so with a fundamental expectation of victory and confidence here and now no matter the land or generation. That all changed with the restoration movement and the chief theology coming out of that movement was John Darby's Dispensational Premillennialism. Since then things have gotten worse and one of the things that has gotten worse is the near constant predictions of imminent doom that never come true. It's been nearly 200 years since that started and not once have any of those teachers been correct. If there is an abomination of desolation, then it might just well be Dispensationalism 😯.

Dispensationalism prompted an explosion of sectarianism. It fostered an endless series of false teachers, and no one does anything to correct that problem. Onlookers watch and wonder. Christ's name is besmirched on a near-daily basis. Two-thirds of Christendom has asked the Dispensationalists to re-examine their teachings only to be ignored. Dispensationalism was influential in the rise of both Liberal Theology (beginning with people like Schweitzer) and the atheists (Bertrand Russell had been reading Dispensationalists, apparently unaware that was a minority view within Christianity).

The facts of modern Christian history are that the decline in American Christianity began with the rise of Dispensationalism. See if you can't dig up some of the research Pew has done. Per capita rates have fairly remained constant since the late 1800s. That is not due to modern English translations. They didn't even exist back then. Do you know what did?


Scofield's Study Bible 😲
 
What do you mean by "dirty word"? Do you think that's a good way to start this exchange?
The tenor of your comments only leads to one conclusion, as offered.
rotflmbo! I wonder if the irony of that question is understood!

Dispensationalist say they believe in an imminent return but the truth of their eschatology is....
  • The return of Christ is divided up into several parts,
  • The great tribulation will come beforehand,
  • A temple will first be built,
  • Israel will first obtain its original geographic boundaries,
  • The Levitical priesthood will be restored,
  • Animal sacrifices will be restarted,

So the eschatology itself contradicts any claim of imminence.
All the things you have described are incidental to His imminent return for His church before the Tribulation starts if one believes in the rapture. I do. But so what? So what if there isn't a rapture until the end of the tribulation, or whether it's pre-, mid-, or post tribulation? Does that mean we shouldn't be watching for His return? No. To not do so is to ignore Scripture. Your claim seems to just be an effort to be divisive. Ignoring the most important part of eschatology and that is HIS return.
Read the WHOLE passage because while Jesus did say no one will know the day, he also said it would happen in "this generation." Put the two together and what he said as a whole is no one in this generation will know the day, or no one will know the day, but it will happen in this generation (not that generation).
Jesus described what the birth pains would be, what to watch for and after this He then commented "this generation will not pass away". He was addressing the generation that would go through these things, whichever generation it is. As for me I believe it's this generation, now. I can be wrong of course, as every generation from the 1st century forward has believed they are the last generation but the condition of the world seems to point to this one as the last one.

Matthew 24:32 Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near,f right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.
...not only do Dispensationalists hold an eschatology that contradicts the doctrine of imminence, but they've also been claiming the imminent return for about 200 years and not a single one of their predictions has ever come true.
Doctrine of imminence https://www.gotquestions.org/imminent-return-Christ.html and your comments seem to scoff at those who are watching for His imminent return. You and your ilk are specifically spoken of, warned about, in the Bible.

2 Peter 3:3 Most importantly, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 “Where is the promise of His coming?” they will ask. “Ever since our fathers fell asleep, everything continues as it has from the beginning of creation.”
100% fail-rate and no one does anything about it.
Scripture is clear what constitutes a false prophet:

Deuteronomy 18:21 “But you may wonder, ‘How will we know whether or not a prophecy is from the Lord?’ 22 If the prophet speaks in the Lord’s name but his prediction does not happen or come true, you will know that the Lord did not give that message. That prophet has spoken without my authority and need not be feared.:

...so what would you have anyone do about a false prophet other then not fear them?

It's not a dirty word. It's a bad theology, one rife with inconsistencies like the one just broached. If you are Dispensationalist, then the list above is known to be Dispensationalist. Therefore, if you consider these various expectations in relationship to the claim of imminence then that contradiction is obvious.
Your understanding of His imminent return seems...different. Can you please define what you understand "doctrine of imminence" to be? I'm curious as I can't suss out from your comments what you exactly believe about His return, other than a defined distaste for dispensationalist and a belief they are wrong.
 
All the things you have described are incidental to His imminent return for His church before the Tribulation starts if one believes in the rapture.
Not according to Dispensationalism. It is completely disingenuous to ignore the contradictions created by Dispensationalism.

And as I have already pointed out Jesus' disciples go through the tribulation. They are not raptured away to escape it. This is just one of the many errors within Dispensationalism.

And it is because of these errors, and their going completely unaddressed, that there is a decline in American Christianity!!!

Christians inside the Church look at the inconsistencies, the lack of accountability, and the lack of internal self-correction and walk away. Non-Christians looking at it all from the outside never believe because believing people who constantly make false predictions, don't hold false predictors accountable, and don't correct the problem are not people with whom they'd like to associate.

Most Dispensationalists aren't aware of these concerns and if they are aware they do not think much about them and when asked to do so the response is usually less respectful than you've been. I study this often. Right NOW the Dispensationalist pastor Gary Hamrick is going through the book of Revelation on the radio. These are re-broadcasts of old teachings that can be found HERE. I just spoke to two people in the administration of that congregation today. ANYONE can listen to these teachings and if they do so with their Bible in hand and open, they will find repeated occasions where he makes statements about scripture that the texts he's citing do not actually state.

My complaints aren't personal. Personally, I think Pastor Hamrick a fine man. My complaints aren't sectarian. I don't subscribe to denominationalism or sectarianism. My complaints are objective and objectively verifiable by ANYONE willing to look at what scripture actually states in comparison to what Dispensationalists make it say. The listener isn't five minutes into that first teaching and Hamrick has already made a series of false statements not actually found in the Bible.

I live about an hour outside of DC and the local Christian radio station is one of the biggest in America. Its daily lineup is filled with Dispensationalists. All day long preachers preach and teach eschatology. Even when they're talking about some other topic, they invariably find a way to throw in commentary about end times. Why? Because Dispensationalism focuses on end times!!! That's what they do. Some of them make prima facie absurd claims. Dr. David Jeremiah can routinely be heard to teach Jesus will come back within his lifetime. The man is 81 years old. If he lives to be 100 then the logically necessary conclusion to his claim is that Jesus is going to return within the next 19 years. If Jesus does return I am prepared because I'm not waiting on Israel or its temple. If Jesus does not return, then every word Dr. Jeremiah taught was incorrect and every dollar he made is ill-gotten profit of false teaching and no one within Dispensationalism will do anything about it. Jeremiah is only one example in an all-day lineup seven days a week.*

Christians who don't think this is an influence on those outside the faith are wrong.

You are apparently a product of this problem because you believe,
All the things you have described are incidental to His imminent return for His church before the Tribulation starts if one believes in the rapture.
When the vast majority of Christendom has historically (and still does) believed Christians go through the tribulation. Only DPism believes otherwise. It's a very popular theology but it's you guys who are the statistical and normative outliers. Those who subscribe to Historic Premillennialism, Amillennialism, Postmillennialism, and Idealism ALL believe Christiansgo through the tribulation. The view you just posted was literally invented in the 1800s. Prior to that it was never a mainstream, orthodox, historical position within Christianity, and it is not what scripture teaches.

Anyone who has ever told someone Jesus is coming back imminently because of the latest newscast (at least Hamrick has enough sense to repudiate that practice) and the content of that news did not turn out to be imminently prophetically is part of the reason American Christianity is in decline.

I know this reads confrontational but it's not my intent to provoke anyone. If you'd like some resources to better examine this, then I'll gladly recommend some sources other than myself. I encourage everyone to investigate.






*I have been to Jeremiah's congregation outside of San Diego, too. Met the man. Fine man, personally. His teachings are often insightful when he's on Christology, Pneumatology, hamartiology, soteriology, etc, but when he's teaching eschatology, he teaches bad theology.
 
I got saved watching Jim and Tammy. They had an evangelist guest, where I heard the Gospel.
God is wonderful!
All the scandals should have taught us to pray hard for the Christians who are highly visible. The downfall of popular Christians does much harm to the kingdom of God. (I'm not going to debate the sincerity nor the reality of their faith, which would be better served in the Pentecostal forum. This applies to all highly-visible people who claim to be Christian.)

Again, thank God for His grace. 👍

--Rich
 
Not according to Dispensationalism. It is completely disingenuous to ignore the contradictions created by Dispensationalism.
I'm not being disingenuous.
And as I have already pointed out Jesus' disciples go through the tribulation. They are not raptured away to escape it. This is just one of the many errors within Dispensationalism.
It's important to note that "you" pointed out your understanding and claim of "many errors", and yet there are many theologians who disagree with your summation. I personally hope there is a rapture, if indeed the tribulation starts in my lifetime, because it's not going to be pretty. It's going to be devastatingly hard on all followers of the Way, if that is the case, let alone the new believers who come to Christ during the tribulation. A true test of our faith if we live to see the tribulation.
And it is because of these errors, and their going completely unaddressed, that there is a decline in American Christianity!!!
Do you mean to say dispensationalism is solely responsible for the decline of Christianity in America? I don't think that's what you're saying but it's how it reads. I can personally look back and see how there has been an overt, diabolical attack on the faith for generations. Just in my lifetime I remember when prayer was removed from public schools and the advent of atheism and secularism began usurping our religious freedoms. One of the provocateurs was a woman named Madalyn Murray O'Hair who was instrumental in this through the Supreme Court. But that said, the world at large, particularly over these last few years, is seeing the decline of Christianity and it is not limited to the States. There are some moderate revivals, in muslim countries, but that is the movement of the Holy Spirit, gathering the elect. The persecutions of followers of the Way have increased, even in purported "democratic" free societies like GB and here too. Followers of the Way are now seen as hatemongers, and other vile descriptive terms, because we will not conform to the worlds ideology and woke agenda that is regressing our societies into bastions of sexual deviancy, the worship of criminal behavior, the rejection of law and order, the rather rapid advance of socialism and communism, and most importantly our stand for our faith in our righteous of God. So, we shouldn't allow ourselves to be complacent but prepared for persecutions to get worse and be prepared, wearing the full armor of God, willing to hold fast to the Gospel, once delivered to the saints. At the very cost of our lives if necessary. I pray I have the faith to do so should the time come.
Christians inside the Church look at the inconsistencies, the lack of accountability, and the lack of internal self-correction and walk away.
I'm not sure who you are trying to lay blame on for the winnowing of the wheat from the chaff.

1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

Matthew 24:10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

2 Timothy 3:3 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

Non-Christians looking at it all from the outside never believe because believing people who constantly make false predictions, don't hold false predictors accountable, and don't correct the problem are not people with whom they'd like to associate.
So, again, what are you wanting to be done with the false prophets? Do you have a plan in place and are you tip of the spear? What are you doing to alter the "decline in American Christianity"? I am with you, but God's will is being fulfilled daily, remember that. Nothing happens that is not under His will. We may not understand why but we are just to have faith His will is perfect and right and there are many more reasons why the world doesn't embrace the Gospel than your reasoning.
Dr. David Jeremiah can routinely be heard to teach Jesus will come back within his lifetime.
If this Dr. Jeremiah says he is prophesying that God has told Him when he is returning, absolutely. he is just another Harold Camping. But if he is just stating he believes Jesus will return in his lifetime, I'm good with that. It's hard for any follower of the Way to see what is happening in this world and not believe "just how much worse does it have to get for Jesus to return for His church?". And I believe He is going to return in my lifetime and I'm 66. That's my prayer and I know the prayer of all those who are followers of the Way that I know.
Christians who don't think this is an influence on those outside the faith are wrong.
It's not possible to say how or when, or if at all, God uses any testimony to reach the lost. But we do know, because He tells us in His written Word:

Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

And for those who reject His Word:

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
You are apparently a product of this problem because you believe,
I don't believe because of my understanding of the end times or last days. I believe because I am redeemed, my sins forgiven and my relationship with the Father restored because of my Lord, God and Savior. I am born-again, dyed in the wool Jesus freak, a follower of the Way and that is why you are wrong.
When the vast majority of Christendom has historically (and still does) believed Christians go through the tribulation. Only DPism believes otherwise. It's a very popular theology but it's you guys who are the statistical and normative outliers. Those who subscribe to Historic Premillennialism, Amillennialism, Postmillennialism, and Idealism ALL believe Christiansgo through the tribulation. The view you just posted was literally invented in the 1800s. Prior to that it was never a mainstream, orthodox, historical position within Christianity, and it is not what scripture teaches.
I'm ok being described as an outlier because I know my salvation is NOT dependent upon whether I am, or am not, a dispensationalist.
Anyone who has ever told someone Jesus is coming back imminently because of the latest newscast (at least Hamrick has enough sense to repudiate that practice) and the content of that news did not turn out to be imminently prophetically is part of the reason American Christianity is in decline.
Again, I believe it's a lot more than just that and I don't think you give people enough credit when it comes to what we see happening in the world today. Even the lost cannot ignore how evil this world has become. If a message of "get right with God because it may be too late tomorrow" is seen, by you, as unbiblical then that's yours to own. Not mine.
I know this reads confrontational but it's not my intent to provoke anyone. If you'd like some resources to better examine this, then I'll gladly recommend some sources other than myself. I encourage everyone to investigate.
Well, I think you are being a little provocative for a reason you have tried to illuminate in this discourse. And I appreciate your offer for resources, but I am not in need of those as I spend my time studying Scripture to get closer to God and do His command to take the Gospel into the whole word (the great commission), not advance a personal belief. With all due respect.
*I have been to Jeremiah's congregation outside of San Diego, too. Met the man. Fine man, personally. His teachings are often insightful when he's on Christology, Pneumatology, hamartiology, soteriology, etc, but when he's teaching eschatology, he teaches bad theology.
I am not of Jeremiah, or Kennedy, or my pastor but I am of Christ Jesus. That is who I follow.

P.s. I had to cut out some of your comments due to the character count exceeding 10,000.
 
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It's important to note that "you" pointed out your understanding and claim of "many errors", and yet there are many theologians who disagree with your summation.
Except that it is not personal opinion only. I have read works by Watts, Darby, Scofield, Chafer, Pentecost, Ryrie, Walvoord, Smith, Lindsay, Ice, Vlach, and many, many more. I used to be a Dispensational Premillennialist (for about twenty years!). I've read and studied this theology in the words of its founders and leading teachers. Some of them recognize these problems. From its inception DPism was met with resistance from within the Church. Some of Christendom's greatest theologians living at Dispensationalism's inception, like A.A. Hodge, Charles Spurgeon, B. B. Warfield and many others, spoke out about the problems in Dispensationalism. Any reading of any comparative work on the topc will readily show teachers from all variety of perspectives agree: Dispensationalism as a very problematic theology.
I personally hope there is a rapture...
So do I. So do most Christians. It's not the rapture that is the problem. It is the Dispensationalist's view of the rapture.
Do you mean to say dispensationalism is solely responsible for the decline of Christianity in America?
Great question.

No, of course not. However, it is exponentially a greater influence than modern English translations of the Bible. I'd also suggest other influences like the death of Billy Graham and the expansion of the internet and cable television, but if we're talking about those matters within the house of God then it's not modern English translations that are the chief cause; it's Dispensational Premillennialism.
If this Dr. Jeremiah says he is prophesying that God has told Him when he is returning, absolutely. he is just another Harold Camping.
Perhaps. I'm more inclined to trust Jeremiah as an authentic believer than I am Camping, but your point is well made. I'd like you to think about it with more depth, though because only Dispensationalism produces these false teachers to the degree we've seen over the last 200 years. No other theology produces as many, as consistently, and without hesitancy. No other theology fails to correct them when they do occur in their ranks. The Dispensationalists do this more frequently, more intensely, and more enduringly.
 
Posters,
I have posted this once before
but the answer to all these different opinions
can be settled by one story in Genesis Ch.24
Moses has spoken = case settled
 
Except that it is not personal opinion only. I have read works by Watts, Darby, Scofield, Chafer, Pentecost, Ryrie, Walvoord, Smith, Lindsay, Ice, Vlach, and many, many more. I used to be a Dispensational Premillennialist (for about twenty years!). I've read and studied this theology in the words of its founders and leading teachers. Some of them recognize these problems. From its inception DPism was met with resistance from within the Church. Some of Christendom's greatest theologians living at Dispensationalism's inception, like A.A. Hodge, Charles Spurgeon, B. B. Warfield and many others, spoke out about the problems in Dispensationalism. Any reading of any comparative work on the topc will readily show teachers from all variety of perspectives agree: Dispensationalism as a very problematic theology.
I've never declared myself a dispensationalist but I'm curious, do you hold to Covenant theology?
So do I. So do most Christians. It's not the rapture that is the problem. It is the Dispensationalist's view of the rapture.
I know over the many years I've struggled to get a grasp on the rapture timeline so I decided, long ago, to have hope it's today but live like it's tomorrow. And regardless of what you, I, or any other believer holds to, it doesn't change that God is going to do His will and Jesus' coming will not be late but right on time.
Great question.

No, of course not. However, it is exponentially a greater influence than modern English translations of the Bible. I'd also suggest other influences like the death of Billy Graham and the expansion of the internet and cable television, but if we're talking about those matters within the house of God then it's not modern English translations that are the chief cause; it's Dispensational Premillennialism.
So put it in a nutshell. What exactly, in the dispensationalists view, are you against? Specifically. And what part of dispensationalism do you see harming the church?
Perhaps. I'm more inclined to trust Jeremiah as an authentic believer than I am Camping, but your point is well made. I'd like you to think about it with more depth, though because only Dispensationalism produces these false teachers to the degree we've seen over the last 200 years. No other theology produces as many, as consistently, and without hesitancy. No other theology fails to correct them when they do occur in their ranks. The Dispensationalists do this more frequently, more intensely, and more enduringly.
When I have talked of the last days I've sometimes joked about Camping, in that "...no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows. AND Harold Camping...". For me it's a testament to the hubris of men who claim to follow Jesus that they, somehow, someway, have secret knowledge that not even the Son is aware of. False teachers indeed.
 
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Bad things have always happened.

There's a presuppositional problem with viewing the Bible through the lens of the contemporary newscast. It fosters the practice of subjecting scripture to the worldly news, not the subjection of history to scripture. It's the cart before the horse. The facts of history is that there have been times much worse spiritually. A brief study of Rome readily and easily shows Rome MUCH more depraved than Washington DC or the whole of America. A survey of the Popes also easily and readily shows many of them much more depraved, desolate, abominable than anything we've got going on today. IF the Dispensationalist approach is correct then things are going to get much worse. We're not there yet and otherwise well-intentioned believers have their tails in knots over things that are not prophetic. Exegetically speaking, there are huge problems in Dispensationalism. I was just exposed to one of them in another thread when I was asked rhetorically by a Dispensationalist if I denied the imminence of Christ's return. It's an appalling question coming from Dispensationalists because while they claim to believe in the doctrine of imminent return, they unwaveringly teach Israel must be restored, another temple built, the Levitical priesthood restored, animal sacrifices begun, and a plethora of events and conditions that must first occur.

Christ cannot come imminently if a bunch of stuff must first occur. He can return only after those milestones. And no one seems to be aware of this contradiction!!!

You've just moved the goalposts.

This op is about the decline of American Christianity. I can agree the societal move accepting sexually deviant behavior and the politics associated therein are problems. I can agree with you that Christians should not be persuaded by either, and I can agree there is an increase in that happening, but even Washington DC (one of the largest per capita percentages of LBGTQ populations), San Fransisco, and New York are not Sodom. People who tell you otherwise do not understand either.

I can deny it is prophetic.

More importantly, the Dispensational view is that the Church is corrupt and will continue to become increasingly facile and need rescuing in the form of the rapture. It is a wretched theology that says the Church will be prevailed over by the gates of hell. Few Dispensationalist seem aware of this contradiction.



For 20 centuries the Church took the gospel into the world, subdued it and ruled over it. Christianity won over and assimilated every single competing world view it encountered and it did so with a fundamental expectation of victory and confidence here and now no matter the land or generation. That all changed with the restoration movement and the chief theology coming out of that movement was John Darby's Dispensational Premillennialism. Since then things have gotten worse and one of the things that has gotten worse is the near constant predictions of imminent doom that never come true. It's been nearly 200 years since that started and not once have any of those teachers been correct. If there is an abomination of desolation, then it might just well be Dispensationalism 😯.

Dispensationalism prompted an explosion of sectarianism. It fostered an endless series of false teachers, and no one does anything to correct that problem. Onlookers watch and wonder. Christ's name is besmirched on a near-daily basis. Two-thirds of Christendom has asked the Dispensationalists to re-examine their teachings only to be ignored. Dispensationalism was influential in the rise of both Liberal Theology (beginning with people like Schweitzer) and the atheists (Bertrand Russell had been reading Dispensationalists, apparently unaware that was a minority view within Christianity).

The facts of modern Christian history are that the decline in American Christianity began with the rise of Dispensationalism. See if you can't dig up some of the research Pew has done. Per capita rates have fairly remained constant since the late 1800s. That is not due to modern English translations. They didn't even exist back then. Do you know what did?


Scofield's Study Bible 😲
Like it or not, there ARE dispensations, thich you cannot deny. (However, they all point to either Jesus' first coming as a man, or His return in great power iand glory.)

First one: pre-flood
2nd one after the flood til Moses & the Exodus
3rd one-the present age
4th one-after Jesus returns
These cannot be truthfully denied.
 
I've never declared myself a dispensationalist but I'm curious, do you hold to Covenant theology?
I would call myself a progressive covenantalist. I'm not a big fan of inventing covenants any more than I am of inventing dispensations (see roby's post immediately above). Covenant Theology asserts a covenant of grace, but I don't find that actually stated anywhere in the Bible. I understand how that view is reached,, but I don't see the necessity of if given what scripture states and how it labels the covenant for itself. many folks (if not most), both covenantalist and dispensationalist, don't seem to realize how often "covenant" is singular in the Bible and how rarely it is stated in plural form :unsure:.

Progressive Covenantalism has its variations but the basic position is that all of the covenants of the Bible are aspects foreshadowing the covenant with Christ. Stephen Wellum is a good source for understanding this view. I think some teachings, interviews, and debates can be found on Youtube. He has several books, but "Kingdom Through Covenant," and "Progressive Covenantalism," are the most germane and informative for this discussion. A ThD in another forum (a Zionist Dispensationalist forum!) recommended the former in a conversation we were having about whether or not the covenant with Abraham was a suzerain covenant.
I've never declared myself a dispensationalist but I'm curious, do you hold to Covenant theology?
I was a Dispensationalist and didn't know it. I cut my Christian teeth on Chuck Smith, Jack Hayford, Hal Lindsay, John Walvoord, Tim LaHaye, and Pat Robertson. I did not know there was any other way to believe. I thought what they taught (eschatologically speaking) was what ALL Christians believed and there was no variation. I became somewhat ambivalent after all their predictions did not come true. Blessedly I began attending an AoG congregation where the pastor and several elders were attending Reformed Seminary learning alternative, more historic points of view. One day an elder friend took me out to lunch and walked me through a pile of scriptures to show me what is actually stated. What I believed is not what was stated. I was not kind or gentle with him when it sunk in.

So I understand what it's like for Dispensationalists in forums when they read my posts.

If you'd like some comparative sources to study the I recommend "The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views," and "Revelation: Four Views" both edited by Robert Clouse," and a couple of books from Zondervan's Counterpoint Series, "Four Views on the Book of Revelation," Three Views on the Rapture," and "Three Views on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament" (although this last one is a bit tough to get through). If you'd like recommendations specific to each eschatological viewpoint I can recommend at least one or two from each pov.
I know over the many years I've struggled to get a grasp on the rapture timeline so I decided, long ago, to have hope it's today but live like it's tomorrow.
That is very commendable, imho. Especially if you can actually pull it off ;). I find eager expectation and not dreading the world going to hell in a handbasket liberating and thereby empowering.
And regardless of what you, I, or any other believer holds to, it doesn't change that God is going to do His will and Jesus' coming will not be late but right on time.
That might be a topic for another thread. I will suggest God responds when His people think, speak, act in truth. I do wholeheartedly agree with you 1) God is in charge and therefore 2) the way things are is His providence. But I also believe He would use the Church differently were we to rid ourselves of the leaven of profiteering false prognosticators. I suspect many will be asked why they supported such teachers when they knew better. Blessedly we are saved by grace.

Praise God!
So put it in a nutshell. What exactly, in the dispensationalists view, are you against? Specifically. And what part of dispensationalism do you see harming the church?
Dispensationalism is a new and radically different theology.
Dispensationalists don't practice their own hermeneutic.
Dispensationalism leads to a dissociated way of living wherein one thing is preached but folks live as if it's not true.
Dispensationalism fosters false teachers.
Dispensationalism compromises core Christian doctrine.

As a consequence, a poor witness is born.
 
A quick google search indicates that the NASB was first published in 1971, followed by the NIV in 1978 with both becoming increasingly popular in the following years ... is it coincidental that the moral decay/decline in American Christianity seems to have really begun snowballing downhill shortly thereafter? Until then, most "average" regular church-going Christians had never heard of much less read a critical text translation. I'm genuinely curious as to your thoughts on this.

This thread is divisive in tone and it appears to be deliberately posted to cause disunity. I'll be watching to see if this is true.
scripture is clear about end times and iniquity becoming full… the wide gate based on likes and stats like on social media isn’t His…
 
Like it or not, there ARE dispensations...
No, there are not. What the Bible calls those milestones is covenants. Not once does the Bible call them is called a dispensation. John Darby and Cyrus Scofield invented those breaks in scripture and applied the Greek oikinomia to them. AND they did so in violation of their own invented hermeneutic, which requires the Bible to be read literally. Had they actually practiced what they preached they wouldn't have added dispensations where none or stated.

roby, I've read the works of the Dispensational Premillennialists from their precursors through their founders surveying the last century's leaders (like Chafer, Ryrie, and Walvoord), and maintained a contemporary knowledge of what's being taught by folks like Bock, Blaising, Vlach, Feinberg and Lester. I did not read about their views. I read them. I read those men's books, learning their views from their own words. I've got shelves of books written by Dispensationalists.

Most Dispensationalists teach seven dispensations, not four. NONE of them are labeled dispensations in the Bible but the one found in the first century in Christ.

Ephesians 2:1-2
For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

1 Corinthians 9:17
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
 
No, there are not. What the Bible calls those milestones is covenants. Not once does the Bible call them is called a dispensation. John Darby and Cyrus Scofield invented those breaks in scripture and applied the Greek oikinomia to them. AND they did so in violation of their own invented hermeneutic, which requires the Bible to be read literally. Had they actually practiced what they preached they wouldn't have added dispensations where none or stated.

roby, I've read the works of the Dispensational Premillennialists from their precursors through their founders surveying the last century's leaders (like Chafer, Ryrie, and Walvoord), and maintained a contemporary knowledge of what's being taught by folks like Bock, Blaising, Vlach, Feinberg and Lester. I did not read about their views. I read them. I read those men's books, learning their views from their own words. I've got shelves of books written by Dispensationalists.

Most Dispensationalists teach seven dispensations, not four. NONE of them are labeled dispensations in the Bible but the one found in the first century in Christ.

Ephesians 2:1-2
For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

1 Corinthians 9:17
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
God dispensed ways to come to Him in various ages. The one thing required in all of them was OBEDIENCE. Today, we have the one-and-only way of BELIEF & OBEDIENCE TO JESUS. Now, samm those various ways whatever you wish, but the fact remains there were four various ways to come to God in different ages.
 
I'm not trying to hijack your discussion, but I can't help but see you believe dispensationalism is a dirty word.

Do you believe watching for His imminent return violates some facet of proper Christology or soteriology, and if so, how? (Matthew 25:1-13)

Matthew 24:42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.

Dispensationalism has only been around for a couple hundreds years. Plenty of Christians have been looking for Jesus to literally return for a very long time.

You've lived a very sheltered life if you don't know this.
 
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