The demoniac

G

guest1

Guest
Just an observation with those who Jesus healed. The majority of them did not follow Him post healing. The healings were a conformation He was the Messiah in their midst. As Jesus taught miracles were a sign.

John 6
On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[e] and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.

68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)
 
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squirrelyguy

Well-known member
Some facts:
1. This man was demon possessed and lived among the dead(2-3).
2. This man was very strong, able to break chains and shackles(3-4).
3. He would cut himself day and night with stones, screaming and yelling(5).
4. The demons recognized the authority of Jesus and were the only ones communicating with Him(6-8)
5. This man was possessed with many demonic spirits, some say around 5000(9).
6. The demons recognized the power of Jesus and HAD to ask permission to enter swine,an unclean animal(10-13)

My questions:
1. Why did the demons have to ask permission from Jesus to leave a man and enter swine?
2. Did the demons need to ask Jesus permission to originally enter the man, potentially when he was a child?

My observations:
1. The man was physically and spiritually dead.
2. Only Jesus(God) could make this man alive.
3. Arminianism is a false gospel.
I have no idea how you managed to take this passage and make it about Calvinism. But I'll address a couple of assumptions unrelated to Calvinism that you make which I think are incorrect.

1. The demons weren't seeking Jesus' permission to leave the man; they were seeking permission to go somewhere other than the abyss. This detail is recorded in Luke 8:31.

2. To be indwelt by demons is not something that happens only to the unregenerate; it can and does happen to saints as well. Keep in mind that there are several occasions in the Gospels where Jesus heals people of physical afflictions by casting demons out of them. Most notably is the case of the woman in the synagogue in Luke 13:10-17. Jesus heals her from "a spirit of infirmity" and says "So ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound—think of it—for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?" There's also the case of Paul's "thorn in the flesh" which is a demon...he calls it "a messenger of Satan." That's a demon that causes a physical affliction.
 

eternomade

Well-known member
I have no idea how you managed to take this passage and make it about Calvinism. But I'll address a couple of assumptions unrelated to Calvinism that you make which I think are incorrect.
This passage is about the Gospel. A dead man was made alive. You didn't answer the questions though.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
I have no idea how you managed to take this passage and make it about Calvinism. But I'll address a couple of assumptions unrelated to Calvinism that you make which I think are incorrect.

1. The demons weren't seeking Jesus' permission to leave the man; they were seeking permission to go somewhere other than the abyss. This detail is recorded in Luke 8:31.
Fair point.
2. To be indwelt by demons is not something that happens only to the unregenerate; it can and does happen to saints as well. Keep in mind that there are several occasions in the Gospels where Jesus heals people of physical afflictions by casting demons out of them. Most notably is the case of the woman in the synagogue in Luke 13:10-17. Jesus heals her from "a spirit of infirmity" and says "So ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound—think of it—for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?"
So the woman was a saint?
There's also the case of Paul's "thorn in the flesh" which is a demon...he calls it "a messenger of Satan." That's a demon that causes a physical affliction.
Nothing in either text shows saints can be indwelt by demons, you're reading it into the text.
 

e v e 21

Well-known member
The Pre-Incarnate Logos of God gave the Demons permission to enter the man as a child...

God probably asked, 'Who will go and Posses this Child?'. A Legion of Wicked Spirits probably raised their hands and said, "We'll go!". As a matter of Fact; in his Providence, the Pre-Incarnate Logos of God permitted this 'so the Works of God would be displayed in the Exorcism of the Legion of Demons'...
does not every man have the carnal self?

The Self is A foreign entity.

God is not evil.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Some facts:
1. This man was demon possessed and lived among the dead(2-3).
2. This man was very strong, able to break chains and shackles(3-4).
3. He would cut himself day and night with stones, screaming and yelling(5).
4. The demons recognized the authority of Jesus and were the only ones communicating with Him(6-8)
5. This man was possessed with many demonic spirits, some say around 5000(9).
6. The demons recognized the power of Jesus and HAD to ask permission to enter swine,an unclean animal(10-13)

My questions:
1. Why did the demons have to ask permission from Jesus to leave a man and enter swine?
2. Did the demons need to ask Jesus permission to originally enter the man, potentially when he was a child?

My observations:
1. The man was physically and spiritually dead.
2. Only Jesus(God) could make this man alive.
3. Arminianism is a false gospel.

Why did they "have" to ask permission? I would think that the only thing they have to do is obey whatever Jesus says to them! That Jesus even entertained the request is remarkable, and just as remarkable to me is Legion's adjuring Jesus by the name of God to allow them to go into the pigs instead of out of the country. They are essentially saying, 'for the sake of God' don't send us out of the country.

Doug
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
My observations:
1. The man was physically and spiritually dead.
2. Only Jesus(God) could make this man alive.
3. Arminianism is a false gospel.

My observations:
1) The man was not physically dead; demonic spirits do not have the power of life, and the man was clearly physically active.

2) Yes only God has power and right to give life of any sort!

3) This account has absolutely nothing to do with the gospel or soteriology, and thus says nothing about the validity of either position of the argument.

Doug
 

Manfred

Well-known member
I don't think so; what if it was the man who was crying and cutting himself?
You dodged. Who was speaking to Jesus,the man or the demons.
Who caused the man to cut himself.

Of course the answers are obvious but it would be impossible for you to acknowledge it.
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
You dodged. Who was speaking to Jesus,the man or the demons.
Who caused the man to cut himself.

Of course the answers are obvious but it would be impossible for you to acknowledge it.
Mar 5:2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
Mar 5:3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
Mar 5:4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.
Mar 5:5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.

Jesus speaking to the unclean spirit; the man was crying and cutting himself. The man was not physically dead.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
We find this in Mark 5:

5 "They came to the other side of the sea, to the country of the Gerasenes. 2 And when Jesus had stepped out of the boat, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit. 3 He lived among the tombs. And no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain, 4 for he had often been bound with shackles and chains, but he wrenched the chains apart, and he broke the shackles in pieces. No one had the strength to subdue him. 5 Night and day among the tombs and on the mountains he was always crying out and cutting himself with stones. 6 And when he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and fell down before him. 7 And crying out with a loud voice, he said, “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me.” 8 For he was saying to him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!” 9 And Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” He replied, “My name is Legion, for we are many.” 10 And he begged him earnestly not to send them out of the country. 11 Now a great herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside, 12 and they begged him, saying, “Send us to the pigs; let us enter them.” 13 So he gave them permission. And the unclean spirits came out and entered the pigs; and the herd, numbering about two thousand, rushed down the steep bank into the sea and drowned in the sea.

14 The herdsmen fled and told it in the city and in the country. And people came to see what it was that had happened. 15 And they came to Jesus and saw the demon-possessed man, the one who had had the legion, sitting there, clothed and in his right mind, and they were afraid. 16 And those who had seen it described to them what had happened to the demon-possessed man and to the pigs. 17 And they began to beg Jesus to depart from their region. 18 As he was getting into the boat, the man who had been possessed with demons begged him that he might be with him. 19 And he did not permit him but said to him, “Go home to your friends and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you.” 20 And he went away and began to proclaim in the Decapolis how much Jesus had done for him, and everyone marveled."

Some facts:
1. This man was demon possessed and lived among the dead(2-3).
2. This man was very strong, able to break chains and shackles(3-4).
3. He would cut himself day and night with stones, screaming and yelling(5).
4. The demons recognized the authority of Jesus and were the only ones communicating with Him(6-8)
5. This man was possessed with many demonic spirits, some say around 5000(9).
6. The demons recognized the power of Jesus and HAD to ask permission to enter swine,an unclean animal(10-13)

My questions:
1. Why did the demons have to ask permission from Jesus to leave a man and enter swine?
2. Did the demons need to ask Jesus permission to originally enter the man, potentially when he was a child?

My observations:
1. The man was physically and spiritually dead.
2. Only Jesus(God) could make this man alive.
3. Arminianism is a false gospel.
As I recall, the demons did not ask permission to leave the man, and there is no scripture stating a demon asks permission to demonize a man.
The man was not physically dead. What made you think that?
 
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