The Divine Council
- Thread starter Aaron32
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Theo1689
Well-known member
Warning: A Mormon trying to persuade Christians to believe in polytheism (what Mormons call, "plural gods").
Aaron, why would you cherry-pick a random video on YT and expect it to represent mainstream Christianity?
That's like a Christian watching "The Godmakers" and expecting it to be an accurate representation of Mormonism.
Aaron32
Well-known member
I'm not. I was trying to get a non-Mormon perspective on the Divine Council, and I came across this video.
I like the content from the Bible Project, but this one surprised me, which is why I'm seeking clarification.
American Gothic
Well-known member
God has innumerable sons, created before the Earth
"Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
Job 38
they are called elohim (being supernatural beings compared to us), BUT
they are not worthy of worship, not being the Creator
"And I fell at his (an angel) feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!" Revelation 19
Only God the Son is worthy of worship, because He is God
"For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him." Colossians 1
the Creation (and Earth) was not made for humanity, it was made for Him
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions." Psalm 45
perhaps this is a reference to God the Son having created companions (the sons of God) ?
if God is an emperor over a vast empire of His own creation, consisting of many many realms
it would make sense He has managers overseeing things on His behalf, and they report to and take orders from Him
"Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
Job 38
they are called elohim (being supernatural beings compared to us), BUT
they are not worthy of worship, not being the Creator
"And I fell at his (an angel) feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!" Revelation 19
Only God the Son is worthy of worship, because He is God
"For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him." Colossians 1
the Creation (and Earth) was not made for humanity, it was made for Him
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions." Psalm 45
perhaps this is a reference to God the Son having created companions (the sons of God) ?
if God is an emperor over a vast empire of His own creation, consisting of many many realms
it would make sense He has managers overseeing things on His behalf, and they report to and take orders from Him
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Josheb
Well-known member
No.
It is NOT accurate. Any "divine counsel" that exists is not in any way a democracy. That is a completely post-canonical, extra-biblical, contemporary and secularized view of scripture. God does NOT share authority.
Exodus 20:3
You shall have no other gods before Me.
Isaiah 42:8
I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, nor My praise to graven images.
It's not rocket surgery
.One of the problems growing in frequency today due to Jewish roots studies is that of assuming everything in the Judaism is correct. It is not. The Jewish theology contained many errors, not just their misguided understanding of the Messiah. Beginning in the 1960s with E. P. Sanders and on through folks like N. T. Wright up to today's sources like Tim Mackee and Michael Heiser (all excellent but imperfect sources) there is a need for discernment, a need for recognizing when and where the Jewish view of things went awry. The civil and religious rules got separate with Moses. The temple of stone and earthly monarchy became theologically significant even though God openly repudiated all three. These have been allowed to influence certain aspects of Christian thought, doctrine, and practice. They are a modern form of Judaism!
And this becomes all the more apparent with the rise of the 19th century apocalyptic restoration sects, many of which were outright cults. They can be recognized by their redefining common terms. the name "Jesus" is used but has enormously different meaning; meaning quite far removed from that Christians have understood for 20 centuries.
When God summoned a divine council, He was not looking for advice or help deciding how things should happen. Any summoning occurred always and solely to dictate His Divine will, and His will alone.
Aaron32
Well-known member
Thank you for your response.No.
It is NOT accurate. Any "divine counsel" that exists is not in any way a democracy. That is a completely post-canonical, extra-biblical, contemporary and secularized view of scripture. God does NOT share authority.
Exodus 20:3
You shall have no other gods before Me.
Isaiah 42:8
I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, nor My praise to graven images.
It's not rocket surgery
One of the problems growing in frequency today due to Jewish roots studies is that of assuming everything in the Judaism is correct. It is not. The Jewish theology contained many errors, not just their misguided understanding of the Messiah. Beginning in the 1960s with E. P. Sanders and on through folks like N. T. Wright up to today's sources like Tim Mackee and Michael Heiser (all excellent but imperfect sources) there is a need for discernment, a need for recognizing when and where the Jewish view of things went awry. The civil and religious rules got separate with Moses. The temple of stone and earthly monarchy became theologically significant even though God openly repudiated all three. These have been allowed to influence certain aspects of Christian thought, doctrine, and practice. They are a modern form of Judaism!
And this becomes all the more apparent with the rise of the 19th century apocalyptic restoration sects, many of which were outright cults. They can be recognized by their redefining common terms. the name "Jesus" is used but has enormously different meaning; meaning quite far removed from that Christians have understood for 20 centuries.
When God summoned a divine council, He was not looking for advice or help deciding how things should happen. Any summoning occurred always and solely to dictate His Divine will, and His will alone.
The scriptural witness of the divine council gives a different story.
1 Kings 22:19-22
Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’
“One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’
“‘By what means?’ the Lord asked.
“‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.
“‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’
What we see here is God listening to several proposals, and then making a final decision. God had a goal in mind, i.e. Ahab would attack Ramoth Gilead and die, but he wanted suggestions on how to bring it about. He chose one, and empowered the one making the suggestion to carry it out.
The scriptural witness says he was specifically seeking suggestions on how things should happen to bring about his desired end state.
Josheb
Well-known member
God's sovereignly omni-attributes and creaturely volition are not mutually exclusive conditions. Anthropomorphizing God is rarely (if ever) correct. Just because God asks a question implying His will and purpose are undecided does not mean that is in fact the case. Pharoah could not escape being Pharoah and Moses could not escape being Moses. The latter's "negotiation" at the burning bush was not actually a negotiation. It appears that way only to finite humanity. God had decided when and how the Israelites would be enslaved generations years before it happened, and 400 years later He had already decided when and how they would be released. An occurrence of negotiation is NOT evidence refuting God's sovereign omniscience.
Think for a moment: Angels are creatures, not Creators. ALL creatures are creatures. None of them are infinite. All creatures necessarily, inescapably live solely within time and space. God alone does not. He knows the beginning from the end, and he knew it before either ever existed.
Furthermore, what Micaiah saw was a vision, not necessarily how it actually came to be.
No example of an Old Testament "council" can ever be read to contradict what Paul wrote,
Romans 11:33-36
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?” “Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?” For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
No one, including those on any council, has ever been His counselor.
Job 21:22
Can anyone teach God knowledge, in that He judges those on high?
Isaiah 40:13
Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, or as His counselor has informed Him?
The answers are, "No," and "No one." There is no God, but God and He is One.
His will and purpose were directly stated. He wanted Ahab to die at Ramoth Gilead. He specifically asked for suggestions. If your doctrine requires that one of the precious few visions into the heavenly decision making process be meaningless, I suggest that the scriptural witness is superior to doctrine.
As the scriptural witness tells us, God knows the beginning from the end, because he made it happen and is making it happen in real time. As Jesus said, his father is still working. He knew Ahab would die at Ramoth Gilead, and as the scriptural witness tells us, it was because he made it happen in real time by sending his servant to make it happen. There is none of this "omni" or "infinity" extra-biblical nonsense required. As the Micaiah's vision tells us, God knows what is going to happen, because like a good project manager with sufficient resources and skilled servants, he has a plan and makes it happen.
In practical reality, this is the point of prayer. We suggest things to God. He chooses to answer in any way he sees fit in real time. The rigidity with which you are applying things here makes prayer meaningless.
For my part, no one counseled God to will Ahab to die at Ramoth Gilead. He made that decision on his own. He then asked for suggestions as to how to make it happen. The angel didn't tell him to do it, the angel suggested a method. The angel wasn't a robot in a play with a pre-ordained script, instead what happened is what Micaiah saw, he proposed a creative solution and got the job done for his boss, just like any of us do with our boss.
Josheb
Well-known member
As I see it you are the one following a "doctrine;" some doctrine of a "divine council." Surely you understand this is a man-made creation hypothesized based on passages like the one(s) you quoted. Surely you can see your response to my post proves what I have posted and does not undermine it in any way.
- God the Creator is sovereign.
- The created creature is not sovereign.
- As sovereign and omni-attributed Creator both the beginning(s) and the end(s) are decided before hand and the Creator is not in any way dependent upon any creature for His creating the beginning and the end. The creature is a constituent element of that creation.
God's eternal purposes do NOT in any way conflict with the limited volitional agency of the creatures He created. When He made the creature, He designed and endowed it with varying volitional capacity. The existence of that volitional capacity does not decide the beginning from the end. - When some heavenly creature speaks up and says, "Hey, I'll do it, and I'll do it this way...." that should in no way ever be construed to conflict with God ontology or other scriptures (like Psalm 139:4 for example).
- There are numerous examples of God determining beforehand a creature's actions even as the creature asserts his/her own volition. Not a single example necessitates the conclusion God learned from another or in any way based His decision on the conversation. It is always and everywhere and assumption, a human-centric assumption God considered the creaturely word as new or persuasive. God had, as you just posted, already decided what would happen to Ahab. He had also long-prior created the creature by whom the creature Ahab would die. Mistaking "Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?" as a request for suggestions is not what the text actually states, especially not the whole of scripture. It is NOT taking the scriptural witness as written. God asked Adam where he was. Did God not already know? God asked Cain where his brother was. Did God not already know? When God "negotiated" with Moses at the burning bush He already knew Aaron was on the way.
- The very passage to which you have appealed for justification does NOT in fat say a single word about any "council," divine or otherwise. What it actually states is, "all the multitudes of heaven standing around him". That is a throng, not a council. That is all the creatures, not a select council.
I suggest the scriptural witness is superior to doctrine.
No, brother, I am afraid it is you who have bought into a "doctrine;" the doctrine of a "divine council," and one in which the sovereign and omni-attributed Creator who knows all things knowable outside the paradigm of before-and-after or cause-and-effect asks the created creature for suggestions.
Creation is NOT a democracy. The Creator does NOT need "suggestions".
Miciah described the scene, he did not create the scene. No man created the scene. And the scene is self explanatory. It goes like this:
"I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left."
And this king, a deity, asks a question:
‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’
The king also asks:
“‘By what means?’
There are English words whose definition sufficiently describe the event. They are the words "divine" and "council". A council caries the definition: an assembly or meeting for consultation or advice, which is exactly what we see. Since it is a council that includes God, the moniker "divine council" is an accurate description of the scene.
Nobody disagreed with the idea that the beginning and the end being decided by the sovereign. Nobody said he was "dependent" either. These bullet points appear to be you inventing things.
As previously stated, the "end" was determined by the sovereign, he knew what it was (Ahab's death). The parts under discussion by the divine council are the parts in the middle, between the beginning and the end, specifically the "who" and the "how". Which is what the vision is about.
Psalm 139:4 is David speaking about words coming from David's tongue. It is an enormous leap to extrapolate that to everybody's tongue. God knowing where Adam, Abel, and Aaron were during or after the event should not be extrapolated to him exhaustively knowing the location of each person and words they will speak beforehand. Knowing the location of a single person is not that great of a feat. Let's not go wildly extrapolating scripture in order to deny the obvious, the king asked "who" and "how".
I'm not sure how God soliciting advice from a "divine throng" changes any part of the discussion. God most certainly did seek advice, provoke discussion, and a conclusion was arrived at. If there were 10 people there, or 10,000,000 people there, it doesn't make a difference, the king asked "who" and the king asked "how".
You seem to have extrapolated you your proof texts to an extremely wild degree here in order to deny the vision Micaiah saw. Micaiah's vision shows God meeting with a group of people and he explicitly asks "who" and "how". I don't know how this "omni-attributed Creator" cropped up in your doctrine, but the bible doesn't say anything like that.
Nobody said the creator needed suggestions or that a vote was taking place. The words "need" and "vote" are absent from any part of the discussion until now and it is not necessary to use all caps words here to say so. Please keep such strawmen out of the discussion.