The Double Predestination Of Non-Calvinists!

Sketo

Sketo

Well-known member
Be careful how you judge Calvinism on the doctrine of Predestination... you might be judging your own understanding also!

Is God evil if he makes a choice that directly determines the ultimate destination of each individual?

Before you answer... ask these questions of your own understanding...

Does your God, immutably, know the ultimate destination of every individual, before he creates them, and willingly chooses to create them anyway?

Does God have to create those individuals he immutably foreknew would end up in hell?

Can “freewill”, at any point, change the immutability of Gods foreknowledge of where they will ultimately end up?

Did you know that you actually believe in a double predestination because by God immutably knowing their ultimate destination God is destining those individuals, to heaven or hell, by simply choosing to create them when he does not have to in the first place?

Do you consider the God of Freewillism evil for choosing to create people who, he immutably knows, have no other destination other than hell?


Omniscience + Creation = Predestination!
 
T

TomFL

Well-known member
Sketo said:
Be careful how you judge Calvinism on the doctrine of Predestination... you might be judging your own understanding also!

Is God evil if he makes a choice that directly determines the ultimate destination of each individual?

Before you answer... ask these questions of your own understanding...

Does your God, immutably, know the ultimate destination of every individual, before he creates them, and willingly chooses to create them anyway?

Does God have to create those individuals he immutably foreknew would end up in hell?

Can “freewill”, at any point, change the immutability of Gods foreknowledge of where they will ultimately end up?

Did you know that you actually believe in a double predestination because by God immutably knowing their ultimate destination God is destining those individuals, to heaven or hell, by simply choosing to create them when he does not have to in the first place?

Do you consider the God of Freewillism evil for choosing to create people who, he immutably knows, have no other destination other than hell?


Omniscience + Creation = Predestination!
Click to expand...
There is a big difference in allowing creatures to do what they will and determining what they do

Knowledge does not equal determination
 
Sketo

Sketo

Well-known member
TomFL said:
There is a big difference in allowing creatures to do what they will and determining what they do
Click to expand...
This may be true in your “free will” system because it assumes mans neutrality.

However in the doctrine of Total Depravity there is no difference between allowing and determining, because man by nature is not neutral in his disposition to sin!

If God determines that a man sin, in T.D., he simply, does not restrain him, and allows him to do what he naturally wills apart from Gods Grace!

The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually... from his youth. - Genesis 6:5, 8:20

among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:3

In either case God’s choice is the determiner of the ultimate destination of each individual.
TomFL said:
Knowledge does not equal determination
Click to expand...
If God knows, before the creation of an individual, that his act of creating that individual, will immutably result in him spending eternity in hell then “Knowledge does... equal determination”!
 
PeanutGallery

PeanutGallery

Active member
Sketo said:
...
If God knows, before the creation of an individual, that his act of creating that individual, will immutably result in him spending eternity in hell then “Knowledge does... equal determination”!
Click to expand...
Actually, “Knowledge does... equal foreknowledge”!
 
T

TomFL

Well-known member
Sketo said:
This may be true in your “free will” system because it assumes mans neutrality.

However in the doctrine of Total Depravity there is no difference between allowing and determining, because man by nature is not neutral in his disposition to sin!

If God determines that a man sin, in T.D., he simply, does not restrain him, and allows him to do what he naturally wills apart from Gods Grace!

The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually... from his youth. - Genesis 6:5, 8:20

among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:3

In either case God’s choice is the determiner of the ultimate destination of each individual.

If God knows, before the creation of an individual, that his act of creating that individual, will immutably result in him spending eternity in hell then “Knowledge does... equal determination”!
Click to expand...

No it doesn't. It affirms depravity not total inability

You confound the two

And this does not look like God's choice

Deut. 30:11–20 —ESV
“¶ “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
¶ “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,
loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.””

Further if God acts to restrain, judge or allow man's actions and determination is true

What is God retaining but his own determinations ?

Judging but his own determinations ?

permitting what he had determined ?

It makes no sense
 
Sketo

Sketo

Well-known member
TomFL said:
if God acts to restrain, judge or allow man's actions and determination is true

What is God retaining but his own determinations ?
Click to expand...

The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually... from his youth. - Genesis 6:5 8:20
TomFL said:
Judging but his own determinations ?
Click to expand...
For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners - Romans 5:19

TomFL said:
permitting what he had determined ?
Click to expand...
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins, in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:1-3
TomFL said:
It makes no sense...
Click to expand...

... to you, because your system does not allow the plain assertions of these to stand! Your system and these texts are like oil-and-water and you assume you have to clean them up by explaining them away for your “sister” to stand!
 
T

TomFL

Well-known member
Sketo said:
The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually... from his youth. - Genesis 6:5 8:20

For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners - Romans 5:19


And you were dead in the trespasses and sins, in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:1-3


... to you, because your system does not allow the plain assertions of these to stand! Your system and these texts are like oil-and-water and you assume you have to clean them up by explaining them away for your “sister” to stand!
Click to expand...

How have you answered this

TomFL said:
if God acts to restrain, judge or allow man's actions and determination is true

What is God retaining but his own determinations ?

Judging but his own determinations ?

permitting what he had determined ?

You quote
Click to expand...

The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually... from his youth. - Genesis 6:5 8:20

Yes man's wickedness not God's; not the wickedness God caused man to commit

Why you quote that verse is a mystery

you also quote

For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners - Romans 5:19

another mystery as Adam in some manner not God is a factor

and that man is as seen

,And you were dead in the trespasses and sins, in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:1-3

does not state God made him that way

So we have yet another mystery

How does any of that prove God's exhaustive casual determination of all. things

Further I must conclude either or both

A) you rail against a stereotyped understanding of what mans nature is held to be under a soft libertarian free will model and have not read all of or come to grips with what was written regarding a soft libertarian free will

B) you confound depravity and ability
 
Y

Yahweh will increase

Active member
Sketo said:
Be careful how you judge Calvinism on the doctrine of Predestination... you might be judging your own understanding also!

Is God evil if he makes a choice that directly determines the ultimate destination of each individual?

Before you answer... ask these questions of your own understanding...

Does your God, immutably, know the ultimate destination of every individual, before he creates them, and willingly chooses to create them anyway?

Does God have to create those individuals he immutably foreknew would end up in hell?

Can “freewill”, at any point, change the immutability of Gods foreknowledge of where they will ultimately end up?

Did you know that you actually believe in a double predestination because by God immutably knowing their ultimate destination God is destining those individuals, to heaven or hell, by simply choosing to create them when he does not have to in the first place?

Do you consider the God of Freewillism evil for choosing to create people who, he immutably knows, have no other destination other than hell?


Omniscience + Creation = Predestination!
Click to expand...
What most people fail to understand in this, is that God doesn't choose for any man or woman to sin or be to be lost because of sin.

Instead, all men and women choose that for themselves and through following in the same human nature that Adam was created with and we were also born with, for Adam was our typos (Greek typos from Romans 5:14).

See the definition below and remember also, that Adam was not originally created with a sinful nature either but only a sinless weak human nature not yet perfected by the indwelling life of God through the Holy Spirit and which because of his failure, he has also passed upon all those coming after him through birth and being our mold or die "typos" in this way.


​
Strong's Concordance
tupos: a figure, model, type​
Original Word: τύπος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: tupos
Phonetic Spelling: (too'-pos)
Definition: typically
Usage: (originally: the mark of a blow, then a stamp struck by a die), (a) a figure; a copy, image, (b) a pattern, model, (c) a type, prefiguring something or somebody.
HELPS Word-studies
5179 týpos (from 5180 /týptō, "strike repeatedly") – properly, a model forged by repetition; (figuratively) the correct paradigm, based on reliable precedent for others to then follow, (i.e. the right example, a proper pattern).


Also, God cannot choose to save everyone and still save some and the reason why, is because he uses the vessels who he chooses to leave in their hardness of sin to have an effect on the vessels he chooses to have mercy upon and in order to cause them seek after God for God's help.

Paul actually reveals this very clearly in Romans 9:21-25 in the below.


Romans 9:21-25​

​

New American Standard Bible​

​

​

21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. 25 As He says also in Hosea,
“I will call those who were not My people, ‘My people,’
And her who was not beloved, ‘beloved.’”

This is also seen in Isaiah 43:3 below.

Isaiah 43:3​

​

New International Version​

​

​

3 For I am the Lord your God,
the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I give Egypt for your ransom,
Cush and Seba in your stead.


Very clearly therefore, God gave others over to the hardness of their own choice to sin and he did this in order to show his mercy on the vessels that he predestined for glory.

However, being we are all guilty and come from the same lump of spoiled by sin clay, God is not obligated to be fair to any of us in this and he must choose some for his mercy, while leaving the others hardened in sin in order to even save any at all.


Joseph
 
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Sketo

Sketo

Well-known member
TomFL said:
The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually... from his youth. - Genesis 6:5 8:20

Yes man's wickedness not God's; not the wickedness God caused man to commit

Why you quote that verse is a mystery
Click to expand...
This verse plainly teaches that when God determines that man sin all he has to do is allow him to do what he does by nature apart from the restraining grace of God! God does not have to force a sinner to sin... it’s what he naturally does when given freedom!
TomFL said:
For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners - Romans 5:19

another mystery as Adam in some manner not God is a factor
Click to expand...
Exactly the point! When man is “allowed” the freedom to act on his own a “sinner” by “nature” sins! In this God can determin the actions of man by allowing him to do what, by nature, he will do and not be the guilty cause of the action!
TomFL said:
and that man is as seen

,And you were dead in the trespasses and sins, in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:1-3
Click to expand...
By “nature” children of wrath! It doesn’t say by action/choices children of wrath!
It says “by nature”!
TomFL said:
does not state God made him that way
Click to expand...
Was Romans 5:19 (above) not a system designed by God himself?
Gods system determined that you and I and everyone, in Adam, be “made a sinner by nature” upon “one mans disobedience”
 
T

TomFL

Well-known member
The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually... from his youth. - Genesis 6:5 8:20

Yes man's wickedness not God's; not the wickedness God caused man to commit

Why you quote that verse is a mystery
Click to expand...
This verse plainly teaches that when God determines that man sin all he has to do is allow him to do what he does by nature apart from the restraining grace of God! God does not have to force a sinner to sin... it’s what he naturally does when given freedom!
Click to expand...

LOL that is permission not determination. And it is hardly the meticulous causal determination that is the cause of all of man's desires, thoughts and deeds



For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners - Romans 5:19

another mystery as Adam in some manner not God is a factor
Click to expand...
Exactly the point! When man is “allowed” the freedom to act on his own a “sinner” by “nature” sins! In this God can determin the actions of man by allowing him to do what, by nature, he will do and not be the guilty cause of the action!
Click to expand...

Freedom is not determination. You are confounding terms and your quotes are no evidence for meticulous divine casual determination of all things


And you were dead in the trespasses and sins, in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:1-3
Click to expand...
By “nature” children of wrath! It doesn’t say by action/choices children of wrath!
It says “by nature”!
Click to expand...

all you prove is man has a depraved nature and that is not debated

Depravity however is not meticulous causal determination

Nothing you post comes anywhere close to proving that God has meticulously causally determined all of man's sin

and the idea is plainly unbiblical as shown by verses previously posted
 
T

TomFL

Well-known member
brightfame52 said:
sketo



Nope He can do what He wills with His own creation
Click to expand...

The question is does he violate his own standard of justice

Job 34:10–12 —ESV
“¶ “Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong.
For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him.
Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice.”

or does he act contrary to his word

James 1:13–15 —ESV
“Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.”

1 Cor. 10:13 —ESV
“No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”

The answer to both is no

Meticulous divine determination of all of man's desires, thoughts and deeds is not a biblical concept
 
Y

Yahweh will increase

Active member
Sketo said:
This verse plainly teaches that when God determines that man sin all he has to do is allow him to do what he does by nature apart from the restraining grace of God! God does not have to force a sinner to sin... it’s what he naturally does when given freedom!

Exactly the point! When man is “allowed” the freedom to act on his own a “sinner” by “nature” sins! In this God can determin the actions of man by allowing him to do what, by nature, he will do and not be the guilty cause of the action!

By “nature” children of wrath! It doesn’t say by action/choices children of wrath!
It says “by nature”!

Was Romans 5:19 (above) not a system designed by God himself?
Gods system determined that you and I and everyone, in Adam, be “made a sinner by nature” upon “one mans disobedience”
Click to expand...
Concerning your third reply to TomFL above, what you are not considering in this however, is that this nature to be children of wrath took hold of them the moment they followed into temptation and sinned and through the same weak but sinless human nature that Adam also was created with and which he also sinned with.

That is when they developed a sin nature and not before it, for they had a choice and so do all who are born with the same weak but sin free human nature that Adam had and passed on to us.

We don't have God dwelling in our hearts from our natural birth to give us direction and power to resist temptation to sin and this is why we will sin at an early age and what age would depend on many things, our parents and our environment etc, etc.

Nevertheless, we will end up as sinners because of this at an early age no matter what.

In other words, how did Adam became a child of wrath, was it after he actually sinned or before he sinned?

One of the problems here, is that the idea that men are born sinners is not actually taught in the scriptures at all, but what the scriptures do teach, is that we are born without the life of God in our hearts and therefore open to the temptations of the devil that lead us to become sinners at an early age.

By the way, the churches really didn't take complete hold of the idea of original sin until Augustine.

So let me ask you this, would God ask Abraham to offer Isaac on the alter unto him if Isaac was unclean as a sinner and contradicting by this everything that he would teach about what is clean and unclean in sacrifices being offered to him? Does God contradict himself like this?

I don't believe this and beside this, if you read the whole 18th chapter of Ezekiel and also Jeremiah 31:29-34, we are told that the sins of the Fathers are in no way passed automatically to their sons and daughters through birth.

Let me ask you this also from Romans 5:12-21, does the righteousness of the one man Jesus Christ come upon any of us automatically without our making a decision to receive it by repentance and faith?

For Paul says what Jesus did is greater or much more than what Adam did, so how is it much more or greater than what Adam did, if we are sinners automatically only by being born as Adam's offspring and without any choice of our own to sin ourselves first?

Oh for certain, Adam indeed caused us to become sinners, because he failed to obey God and then receive the Life of God through the Holy Spirit represented in the Tree of Life in order to pass that Life on to us.

This is why Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:45-47 reveals that God sent Jesus to be for us what Adam failed to be and that is "a life giving spirit" and by his spirit being united to ours but first we have to repent and believe.


Of course, we will only ever do this however if God leads us to it through what he allows us to go through in life and also through his Holy Spirits conviction all through our lives as well.
 
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