The Double Predestination Of Non-Calvinists!

TomFL

Well-known member
Sure He does, God is the first cause of all things
So then you deny scripture

James 1:13–14 —ESV
“Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.”

1 Cor. 10:13 —ESV
“No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”

Job 34:10–12 —ESV
“¶ “Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong.
For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him.
Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice.”

seems it getting to be a common occurrence
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
So then you deny scripture

James 1:13–14 —ESV
“Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.”

1 Cor. 10:13 —ESV
“No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”

Job 34:10–12 —ESV
“¶ “Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong.
For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him.
Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice.”

seems it getting to be a common occurrence
No I believe all those scriptures, the question is do you ? Do you even undertand them, if you do prove it
 

Bob Carabbio

Active member
Be careful how you judge Calvinism on the doctrine of Predestination... you might be judging your own understanding also!

Is God evil if he makes a choice that directly determines the ultimate destination of each individual?

Before you answer... ask these questions of your own understanding...

Does your God, immutably, know the ultimate destination of every individual, before he creates them, and willingly chooses to create them anyway?

Does God have to create those individuals he immutably foreknew would end up in hell?

Can “freewill”, at any point, change the immutability of Gods foreknowledge of where they will ultimately end up?

Did you know that you actually believe in a double predestination because by God immutably knowing their ultimate destination God is destining those individuals, to heaven or hell, by simply choosing to create them when he does not have to in the first place?

Do you consider the God of Freewillism evil for choosing to create people who, he immutably knows, have no other destination other than hell?


Omniscience + Creation = Predestination!
The flaw in your reasoning, of course is that there no "Control" implied or existing in "Foreknowledge". The human decision, to surrender/Repent when they are Drawn to Christ by God is according to their OWN FREE WILL.

God knows how they will ultimately choose (and how many times they will change their mind, SIN, Backslide, be restored, etc.), and THAT has no effect whatsoever on free will at all.

OF course, if you buy into the ENTIRE Calvie 5-point package, there's "I" to contend with, which, of course, does remove choice of any kind and you're a "pre-programmed robot" who will move through life on preset "Rails".
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
The flaw in your reasoning, of course is that there no "Control" implied or existing in "Foreknowledge". The human decision, to surrender/Repent when they are Drawn to Christ by God is according to their OWN FREE WILL.

God knows how they will ultimately choose (and how many times they will change their mind, SIN, Backslide, be restored, etc.), and THAT has no effect whatsoever on free will at all.

OF course, if you buy into the ENTIRE Calvie 5-point package, there's "I" to contend with, which, of course, does remove choice of any kind and you're a "pre-programmed robot" who will move through life on preset "Rails".
The reasoning was sound, you just didnt embrace it
 

TomFL

Well-known member
No I believe all those scriptures, the question is do you ? Do you even undertand them, if you do prove it
Sorry you need to show they are consistent with a view that makes God the cause of all sin

James 1:13–14 —ESV
“Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.”

1 Cor. 10:13 —ESV
“No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”

Job 34:10–12 —ESV
“¶ “Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong.
For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him.
Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice.”

do you own work for a change
 
The flaw in your reasoning, of course is that there no "Control" implied or existing in "Foreknowledge". The human decision, to surrender/Repent when they are Drawn to Christ by God is according to their OWN FREE WILL.

God knows how they will ultimately choose (and how many times they will change their mind, SIN, Backslide, be restored, etc.), and THAT has no effect whatsoever on free will at all.

OF course, if you buy into the ENTIRE Calvie 5-point package, there's "I" to contend with, which, of course, does remove choice of any kind and you're a "pre-programmed robot" who will move through life on preset "Rails".
It is definite that we must make the choice but we will only make it because God allows situations in our lives that will bring us to the end of ourselves so that we will and he will use the vessels of dishonor that he leaves hardened in sin to do it with also.

This is very clearly seen in God's dealing with Israel and all through their history of the OT also.

For a good example of this is when they were in bondage to Egypt, God used Egypt and the oppression from them, to drive Israel to their knees to cry out for God's mercy deliverance and then he used Egypt also to show his love and power to Israel so that they would have faith in him also.

This is also what Paul is speaking of in Romans 9:21-25 and this is also seen in Isaiah 43:3 below.

Romans 9:21-25​

New International Version​

21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:
“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”



Isaiah 43:3​

New International Version​

3 For I am the Lord your God,
the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I give Egypt for your ransom,
Cush[a] and Seba in your stead.


These two passages very clearly show us that God gave these people over to the hardness of sin, in order to use them to cause Israel to turn to God in repentance and to be cast upon God for his mercy and grace.


This is one of the ways in which God leads us to repentance also, by making the way of the sinner who he desires to save miserable so he will turn to God in repentance and faith and he does this by letting the other sinners stay hardened in their own choice to sin but God doesn't make anyone sin, we do that of our own choice.

This is also why we cannot reply against God and why God is not obligated to be fair with all humans,

For all of us are guilty by our own choice and therefore if God decides to save some out of the same lump of spoiled by sin clay, while leaving others hardened for his use for them to have an effect to bring the vessels of mercy to repentance, that is his business.

For there is no unrighteousness within him for doing so, because we are all guilty and none of us deserve to be saved in the first place and being that we all make the same choice to sin and become his enemies by doing so.

The bottom line here however, is that if God didn't let some perish, he wouldn't be able to save any of us and it is because he must use some to have an effect on the others to turn them back to himself from their sins, and it is unfortunate but it is because of our condition in sin that he must do it this way.

Joseph
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Sorry you need to show they are consistent with a view that makes God the cause of all sin

James 1:13–14 —ESV
“Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.”

1 Cor. 10:13 —ESV
“No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”

Job 34:10–12 —ESV
“¶ “Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong.
For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him.
Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice.”

do you own work for a change
lol, you want me to do what you suppose to do, nana ! Its suffice to say God is the First cause of all things !
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
God before the foundation had determined to make some men for salvation and glory, the vessels of mercy, and some men for wrath and destruction, the vessels of wrath Rom 9:21-23


21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
 

TomFL

Well-known member
lol, you want me to do what you suppose to do, nana ! Its suffice to say God is the First cause of all things !
Sorry I did my work

Posting verses obviously contrary to any idea that God is the cause of all of men's sin

You are just unable to rebut them

James 1:13–14 —ESV
“Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.”

1 Cor. 10:13 —ESV
“No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”

Job 34:10–12 —ESV
“¶ “Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong.
For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him.
Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice.”
God before the foundation had determined to make some men for salvation and glory, the vessels of mercy, and some men for wrath and destruction, the vessels of wrath Rom 9:21-23


21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
LOL

That passage says nothing at all about God before the foundation determining to make some men for salvation and glory, the vessels of mercy, and some men for wrath and destruction, the vessels of wrath Rom 9:21-23

The passage of about God's right to use a hardened rebellious Israel for an ignoble purpose

Romans 11 clearly shows they were not predestined by God's desire to damn them but because of their own rebellious nature and even then their condition was not without remedy

Rom. 10:21 —ESV
“¶ But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.””

Rom. 11:11–23 —ESV
Ҧ So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
¶ Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?
If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
¶ But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.”
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
tom

Sorry I did my work

In your own mind, it doesnt reflect in the post. All you did was quote a bunch of scripture and left it alone for someone else to work. Try studying for yourself. You not bout to run me all over the bible to explain verses for you, you already reject the ones I have took time to post.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
tom



In your own mind, it doesnt reflect in the post. All you did was quote a bunch of scripture and left it alone for someone else to work. Try studying for yourself. You not bout to run me all over the bible to explain verses for you, you already reject the ones I have took time to post.
Sorry but even a blind man can see God is not the cause of man's sin

James 1:13–14 —ESV
“Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.”

You just can't answer them

1 Cor. 10:13 —ESV
“No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”

Job 34:10–12 —ESV
“¶ “Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong.
For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him.
Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice.”
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Sorry but even a blind man can see God is not the cause of man's sin

James 1:13–14 —ESV
“Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.”

You just can't answer them

1 Cor. 10:13 —ESV
“No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”

Job 34:10–12 —ESV
“¶ “Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong.
For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him.
Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice.”
A blind man cant see at all ! God is the first and primary cause of all things, sin no exception
 

TomFL

Well-known member
A blind man cant see at all ! God is the first and primary cause of all things, sin no exception

Sorry not according to scripture. Man sins of his own volition


James 1:13–14 —ESV

“Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.”



1 Cor. 10:13 —ESV
“No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”

Job 34:10–12 —ESV
“¶ “Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong.
For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him.
Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice.”
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Sorry not according to scripture. Man sins of his own volition


James 1:13–14 —ESV

“Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.”



1 Cor. 10:13 —ESV
“No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”

Job 34:10–12 —ESV
“¶ “Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong.
For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him.
Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice.”
Can a blind man see ? And God is the first cause of all things, including mans sin. God could have prevented man from sinning against Him Gen 20:6
And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Can a blind man see ? And God is the first cause of all things, including mans sin. God could have prevented man from sinning against Him Gen 20:6
And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her
You are just repeating yourself while ignoring posted scripture

James 1:13–14 —ESV

“Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.”



1 Cor. 10:13 —ESV
“No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”

Job 34:10–12 —ESV
“¶ “Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong.
For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him.
Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice.”

BTW your verse says nothing at all about God causing man's sin

why you quote it is a mystery
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
You are just repeating yourself while ignoring posted scripture

James 1:13–14 —ESV

“Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.”



1 Cor. 10:13 —ESV
“No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”

Job 34:10–12 —ESV
“¶ “Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong.
For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him.
Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice.”

BTW your verse says nothing at all about God causing man's sin

why you quote it is a mystery
Getting back to the subject, some men God created to be damned and some to be saved !
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Getting back to the subject, some men God created to be damned and some to be saved !
Not found in the pages of scripture

and you still ignored

James 1:13–14 —ESV

“Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.”



1 Cor. 10:13 —ESV
“No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”

Job 34:10–12 —ESV
“¶ “Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong.
For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him.
Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice.”

the that God is not the cause of man's sin
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Not found in the pages of scripture

and you still ignored

James 1:13–14 —ESV

“Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.”



1 Cor. 10:13 —ESV
“No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”

Job 34:10–12 —ESV
“¶ “Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong.
For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him.
Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice.”

the that God is not the cause of man's sin
Some men were made vessels of Mercy and some vessels of wrath to serve God's purpose!
 
Top