The Double Predestination Of Non-Calvinists!

TomFL

Well-known member
Some men were made vessels of Mercy and some vessels of wrath to serve God's purpose!
You are not addressing the verses. Why not ?

James 1:13–14 —ESV

“Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.”



1 Cor. 10:13 —ESV
“No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”

Job 34:10–12 —ESV
“¶ “Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong.
For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him.
Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice.”

God is not the cause of man's sin
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
You are not addressing the verses. Why not ?

James 1:13–14 —ESV

“Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.”



1 Cor. 10:13 —ESV
“No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”

Job 34:10–12 —ESV
“¶ “Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong.
For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him.
Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice.”

God is not the cause of man's sin
You not addressing the fact that God predestined some to heaven and some to hell.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You not addressing the fact that God predestined some to heaven and some to hell.
The bible does not say that God unconditionally elected (predestined) men to heaven or Hell

Back up your claim with scripture

And the topic was is God the cause of all of man's sin

James 1:13–14 —ESV

“Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.”



1 Cor. 10:13 —ESV
“No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”

Job 34:10–12 —ESV
“¶ “Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong.
For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him.
Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice.”

God is not the cause of man's sin according to the bible

and you are just running from it
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
The bible does not say that God unconditionally elected (predestined) men to heaven or Hell

Back up your claim with scripture

And the topic was is God the cause of all of man's sin

James 1:13–14 —ESV

“Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.”



1 Cor. 10:13 —ESV
“No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”

Job 34:10–12 —ESV
“¶ “Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong.
For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him.
Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice.”

God is not the cause of man's sin according to the bible

and you are just running from it
God created some people as vessels of wrath and some as vessels of Mercy. Their destiny are sealed by the determined counsel of God . See if you or I were made by God to be vessels of wrath, there's nothing to be done about it?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
God created some people as vessels of wrath and some as vessels of Mercy. Their destiny are sealed by the determined counsel of God . See if you or I were made by God to be vessels of wrath, there's nothing to be done about it?
That is not scripture

That is your theology

Do you not know the difference ?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Rom 9 shows how some are made for the purpose of wrath and destruction and some for mercy and Glory!
Romans 9 shows how God used a disobedient Israel for his own purposed

This is laid out in Rom 11

Rom. 11:1–23 —ESV
Ҧ I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?
“Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.”
But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”
¶ And David says, “Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever.”
So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
¶ Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?
If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
¶ But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.”

The passage is not teaching unconditional particular election
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Romans 9 shows how God used a disobedient Israel for his own purposed

This is laid out in Rom 11

Rom. 11:1–23 —ESV
Ҧ I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?
“Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.”
But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”
¶ And David says, “Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever.”
So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
¶ Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?
If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
¶ But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.”

The passage is not teaching unconditional particular election
Romans 9 teaches double predestination and election of individuals in God's purpose
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Romans 9 teaches double predestination and election of individuals in God's purpose
No it is nowhere found in Romans 9 and needs to read into it and it is contradicted by Rom 11

Romans 9 shows how God used a disobedient Israel for his own purposed

This is laid out in Rom 11

Rom. 11:1–23 —ESV
Ҧ I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?
“Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.”
But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”
¶ And David says, “Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever.”
So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
¶ Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?
If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
¶ But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.”

The passage is not teaching unconditional particular election

as you can see Israel cutting off was not without remedy and should they not remain in unbelief they may be grafted in again

So it is dependent upon something on their part and not some unconditional; decree


You need to stop citing your theology and actually read the bible
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
No it is nowhere found in Romans 9 and needs to read into it and it is contradicted by Rom 11

Romans 9 shows how God used a disobedient Israel for his own purposed

This is laid out in Rom 11

Rom. 11:1–23 —ESV
Ҧ I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?
“Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.”
But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”
¶ And David says, “Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever.”
So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
¶ Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?
If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
¶ But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.”

The passage is not teaching unconditional particular election

as you can see Israel cutting off was not without remedy and should they not remain in unbelief they may be grafted in again

So it is dependent upon something on their part and not some unconditional; decree


You need to stop citing your theology and actually read the bible
Romans 9 teaches double predestination of individuals!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Romans 9 teaches double predestination of individuals!
You are just ignoring the evidence as usual

No it is nowhere found in Romans 9 and needs to read into it and it is contradicted by Rom 11

Romans 9 shows how God used a disobedient Israel for his own purposed

This is laid out in Rom 11

Rom. 11:1–23 —ESV
Ҧ I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?
“Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.”
But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”
¶ And David says, “Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever.”
So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
¶ Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?
If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
¶ But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.”

The passage is not teaching unconditional particular election

as you can see Israel cutting off was not without remedy and should they not remain in unbelief they may be grafted in again

So it is dependent upon something on their part and not some unconditional; decree


You need to stop citing your theology and actually read the bible
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
You are just ignoring the evidence as usual

No it is nowhere found in Romans 9 and needs to read into it and it is contradicted by Rom 11

Romans 9 shows how God used a disobedient Israel for his own purposed

This is laid out in Rom 11

Rom. 11:1–23 —ESV
Ҧ I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?
“Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.”
But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”
¶ And David says, “Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever.”
So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
¶ Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?
If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
¶ But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.”

The passage is not teaching unconditional particular election

as you can see Israel cutting off was not without remedy and should they not remain in unbelief they may be grafted in again

So it is dependent upon something on their part and not some unconditional; decree


You need to stop citing your theology and actually read the bible
You are wasting spàce as usual. Rom 9 most certainly teaches predestination to glory and to wrath and destruction
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You are wasting spàce as usual. Rom 9 most certainly teaches predestination to glory and to wrath and destruction
You have closed your eyes and shut your ears

Otherwise you would have to believe truth and reject your theology

No it is nowhere found in Romans 9 and needs to read into it and it is contradicted by Rom 11

Romans 9 shows how God used a disobedient Israel for his own purposed

This is laid out in Rom 11

Rom. 11:1–23 —ESV
Ҧ I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?
“Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.”
But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”
¶ And David says, “Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever.”
So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
¶ Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?
If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
¶ But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.”

The passage is not teaching unconditional particular election

as you can see Israel cutting off was not without remedy and should they not remain in unbelief they may be grafted in again

So it is dependent upon something on their part and not some unconditional; decree


You need to stop citing your theology and actually read the bible

BTW hasn't anyone told you that is not how you are supposed to do theology
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
You have closed your eyes and shut your ears

Otherwise you would have to believe truth and reject your theology

No it is nowhere found in Romans 9 and needs to read into it and it is contradicted by Rom 11

Romans 9 shows how God used a disobedient Israel for his own purposed

This is laid out in Rom 11

Rom. 11:1–23 —ESV
Ҧ I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?
“Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.”
But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”
¶ And David says, “Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever.”
So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
¶ Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?
If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
¶ But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.”

The passage is not teaching unconditional particular election

as you can see Israel cutting off was not without remedy and should they not remain in unbelief they may be grafted in again

So it is dependent upon something on their part and not some unconditional; decree


You need to stop citing your theology and actually read the bible

BTW hasn't anyone told you that is not how you are supposed to do theology
Gods teaching on double predestination is in Rom 9
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Gods teaching on double predestination is in Rom 9
Not if read context all the way through chapter 11

Rom. 11:1–23 —ESV
Ҧ I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?
“Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.”
But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”
¶ And David says, “Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever.”
So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
¶ Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?
If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
¶ But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.”

The passage is not teaching unconditional particular election

as you can see Israel cutting off was not without remedy and should they not remain in unbelief they may be grafted in again

So it is dependent upon something on their part and not some unconditional; decree
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Not if read context all the way through chapter 11

Rom. 11:1–23 —ESV
Ҧ I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?
“Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.”
But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”
¶ And David says, “Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever.”
So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
¶ Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?
If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
¶ But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.”

The passage is not teaching unconditional particular election

as you can see Israel cutting off was not without remedy and should they not remain in unbelief they may be grafted in again

So it is dependent upon something on their part and not some unconditional; decree
Romans 9 teaches double predestination
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Romans 9 teaches double predestination
Mindless repetition which ignores the evidence

Rom. 11:1–23 —ESV
Ҧ I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?
“Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.”
But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”
¶ And David says, “Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever.”
So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
¶ Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?
If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
¶ But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.”

The passage is not teaching unconditional particular election

as you can see Israel cutting off was not without remedy and should they not remain in unbelief they may be grafted in again

So it is dependent upon something on their part and not some unconditional; decree
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Mindless repetition which ignores the evidence

Rom. 11:1–23 —ESV
Ҧ I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?
“Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.”
But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”
¶ And David says, “Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever.”
So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
¶ Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?
If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
¶ But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.”

The passage is not teaching unconditional particular election

as you can see Israel cutting off was not without remedy and should they not remain in unbelief they may be grafted in again

So it is dependent upon something on their part and not some unconditional; decree
When men are born into this world their eternal destiny has already by God been determined.
 
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