T
TomFL
Guest
Still nothing to pay attention toThat is what happens when you don't pay attention.
Nothing added to nothing is still nothing
Still nothing to pay attention toThat is what happens when you don't pay attention.
Posting verses obviously contrary to any idea that God is the cause of all of men's sin
You are just unable to rebut them
First depravity is not total inabilityIs the Total Depravity, of all men, after the fall, a consequence of Adams sin, determined by God in his command to Adam in the Garden?
For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners... - Romans 5:19
Is God the cause of all mans sin? If so does this necessarily make God evil???
Does Gods Meticulous Determination, Of All Things, Make God Evil?
The reason I’m sharing this particular exchange is because it includes assumptions and arguments that are typical and that show up in Calvinist forums like this one with increasing frequency. Some people simply cannot conceive of God being absolutely sovereign so they attempt to argue against...forums.carm.org
Total Spiritual inability. Man naturally cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God 1 Cor 2 14 cannot come to Christ Jn 6 44,65, cannot hear the word of God Jn 8 43. Much moreFirst depravity is not total inability
Depravity is true total inability is not
Nowhere does the bible state men would be unable to to respond to God; that could neither understand or respond to God in any positive manner
Deut. 30:10–19 —ESV
“when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
¶ “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
¶ “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,”
Further the fact that men had to be blinded or spoken to in parables to prevent them from understanding truth shows the doctrine is false
John 12:40 —ESV
“¶ “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.””
Does a blind man need a blindfold to stop him from seeing
Is it necessary to speak to men in parable so they would not understand if they were born unable to understand spiritual things
Mark 4:11–12 —ESV
“And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,
so that “‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’””
Is there and reason for the god of this world to blind anyone if they cannot se spiritual truth
2 Cor. 4:4 —ESV
“In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”
Rather we see men grow calloused, harden in time
Acts 28:27 —ESV
“For this people’s heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed; lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’”
Naturally you address nothingTotal Spiritual inability. Man naturally cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God 1 Cor 2 14 cannot come to Christ Jn 6 44,65, cannot hear the word of God Jn 8 43. Much more
I address with this: Man naturally cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God 1 Cor 2 14 cannot come to Christ Jn 6 44,65, cannot hear the word of God Jn 8 43. Much moreNaturally you address nothing
Deut. 30:10–19 —ESV
“when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
¶ “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
¶ “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,”
Further the fact that men had to be blinded or spoken to in parables to prevent them from understanding truth shows the doctrine is false
John 12:40 —ESV
“¶ “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.””
Does a blind man need a blindfold to stop him from seeing
Is it necessary to speak to men in parable so they would not understand if they were born unable to understand spiritual things
Mark 4:11–12 —ESV
“And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,
so that “‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’””
Is there and reason for the god of this world to blind anyone if they cannot se spiritual truth
2 Cor. 4:4 —ESV
“In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”
Rather we see men grow calloused, harden in time
Acts 28:27 —ESV
“For this people’s heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed; lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’”
The passage you quote is about receiving divine revelation directly from the Spirit it says nothing at all about understanding the written or preached word
2 Tim. 3:15 —ESV
“and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.”
John 20:31 —ESV
“but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
It is only your misunderstandingI address with this: Man naturally cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God 1 Cor 2 14 cannot come to Christ Jn 6 44,65, cannot hear the word of God Jn 8 43. Much more
So again... this was in response to your post...Is the Total Depravity, of all men, after the fall, a consequence of Adams sin, determined by God in his command to Adam in the Garden?
For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners... - Romans 5:19
Is God the cause of all mans sin? If so does this necessarily make God evil???
Does Gods Meticulous Determination, Of All Things, Make God Evil?
The reason I’m sharing this particular exchange is because it includes assumptions and arguments that are typical and that show up in Calvinist forums like this one with increasing frequency. Some people simply cannot conceive of God being absolutely sovereign so they attempt to argue against...forums.carm.org
Posting verses obviously contrary to any idea that God is the cause of all of men's sin
Depravity is true
You need to differentiate between inherited depravity and total inability they are not the sameYou missed the point...
So again... this was in response to your post...
Is the Depravity, of all men, after the fall, a consequence of Adams sin, determined by God in his command to Adam in the Garden?
For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners... - Romans 5:19
Is God the cause of all mans sin? If so does this necessarily make God evil???
Does Gods Meticulous Determination, Of All Things, Make God Evil?
The reason I’m sharing this particular exchange is because it includes assumptions and arguments that are typical and that show up in Calvinist forums like this one with increasing frequency. Some people simply cannot conceive of God being absolutely sovereign so they attempt to argue against...forums.carm.org
In general All the early fathers believed in depravity but not total inability
All the verses already posted show the second century fathers believed in free willWhat is your EVIDENCE for your claim?
Barnabas, associate of Paul (A.D. 70): “Learn: before we believed in God, the habitation of our heart was corrupt and weak.”
Ignatius (A.D. 110): “They that are carnal [unbelievers] cannot do the things that are spiritual…Nor can the unbelievers do the things of belief.”
Justin Martyr (A.D. 150): “Mankind by Adam fell under death, and the deception of the serpent; we are born sinners…No good thing dwells in us…For neither by nature, nor by human understanding is it possible for me to acquire the knowledge of things so great and so divine, but by the energy of the Divine Spirit…Of ourselves it is impossible to enter the kingdom of God…He has convicted us of the impossibility of our nature to obtain life…Free will has destroyed us; we who were free are become slaves and for our sin are sold…Being pressed down by our sins, we cannot move upward toward God; we are like birds who have wings, but are unable to fly.”
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 190): “The soul cannot rise nor fly, nor be lifted up above the things that are on high, without special grace.”
Origen: “Our free will…or human nature is not sufficient to seek God in any manner.”
Eusebius (A.D. 330): “The liberty of our will in choosing things that are good is destroyed.”
Augustine (A.D. 370): “If, therefore, they are servants of sin (2 Cor. 3:17), why do they boast of free will?…O, man! Learn from the precept what you ought to do; learn from correction, that it is your own fault you have not the power…Let human effort, which perished by Adam, here be silent, and let the grace of God reign by Jesus Christ…What God promises, we ourselves do not through free will of human nature, but He Himself does by grace within us…Men labor to find in our own will something that is our own, and not God’s; how can they find it, I know not.”
We can stick with “inherited” depravity. i.e. “inherited “ sin nature!You need to differentiate between inherited depravity and total inability they are not the same
In general All the early fathers believed in depravity but not total inability
So yes depravity is a result of the fall
No natural men dont have the spiritual capacity to understand the word of God or the things of the Spirit.It is only your misunderstanding
Deut. 30:10–19 —ESV
“when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
¶ “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
¶ “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,”
Further the fact that men had to be blinded or spoken to in parables to prevent them from understanding truth shows the doctrine is false
John 12:40 —ESV
“¶ “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.””
Does a blind man need a blindfold to stop him from seeing
Is it necessary to speak to men in parable so they would not understand if they were born unable to understand spiritual things
Mark 4:11–12 —ESV
“And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,
so that “‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’””
Is there and reason for the god of this world to blind anyone if they cannot se spiritual truth
2 Cor. 4:4 —ESV
“In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”
Rather we see men grow calloused, harden in time
Acts 28:27 —ESV
“For this people’s heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed; lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’”
The passage you quote is about receiving divine revelation directly from the Spirit it says nothing at all about understanding the written or preached word
2 Tim. 3:15 —ESV
“and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.”
John 20:31 —ESV
“but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
and John 6:45 shows men can come to Christ once they
John 6:45 —ESV
“It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—”
they have heard and learned from the Father
I agree we inherit depravity from Adam's fall. I already stated that and I guess you could calll it God's design because he created usWe can stick with “inherited” depravity. i.e. “inherited “ sin nature!
Would you agree that by Gods “design” we “inherited” depravity from Adam at the fall?
Sometimes these things are more clear when we invoke the likes of the Fallen Angels instead of Humanity. God created the Archangel Lucifer, while knowing Lucifer would Fall. Omniscience + Creation = Predestination...Be careful how you judge Calvinism on the doctrine of Predestination... you might be judging your own understanding also!
Is God evil if he makes a choice that directly determines the ultimate destination of each individual?
Before you answer... ask these questions of your own understanding...
Does your God, immutably, know the ultimate destination of every individual, before he creates them, and willingly chooses to create them anyway?
Does God have to create those individuals he immutably foreknew would end up in hell?
Can “freewill”, at any point, change the immutability of Gods foreknowledge of where they will ultimately end up?
Did you know that you actually believe in a double predestination because by God immutably knowing their ultimate destination God is destining those individuals, to heaven or hell, by simply choosing to create them when he does not have to in the first place?
Do you consider the God of Freewillism evil for choosing to create people who, he immutably knows, have no other destination other than hell?
Omniscience + Creation = Predestination!
...We can stick with “inherited” depravity. i.e. “inherited “ sin nature!
Would you agree that by Gods “design” we “inherited” depravity from Adam at the fall?
Seriously Tom.... “I guess”??? You know!!!I agree we inherit depravity from Adam's fall. I already stated that and I guess you could calll it God's design because he created us
...Sorry I did my work
Posting verses obviously contrary to any idea that God is the cause of all of men's sin
...Is God the cause of all mans sin? If so does this necessarily make God evil???
Is this “obviously contrary to any idea that God is the cause of all of men's sin!”???I agree we inherit depravity from Adam's fall. I already stated that and I guess you could calll it God's design because he created us
Does Gods Meticulous Determination, Of All Things, Make God Evil?
The reason I’m sharing this particular exchange is because it includes assumptions and arguments that are typical and that show up in Calvinist forums like this one with increasing frequency. Some people simply cannot conceive of God being absolutely sovereign so they attempt to argue against...forums.carm.org
Do you have a point to make ?...
Seriously Tom.... “I guess”???
Do you know what your “I guess” does to in reguards to this question...
...
...
Yes...Do you have a point to make ?
It still serves the same purpose!It was an affirmation based on creation