T
The Double Predestination Of Non-Calvinists!
- Thread starter Sketo
- Start date
Sketo
Well-known member
Is the Total Depravity, of all men, after the fall, a consequence of Adams sin, determined by God in his command to Adam in the Garden?
For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners... - Romans 5:19
Is God the cause of all mans sin? If so does this necessarily make God evil???
Does Gods Meticulous Determination, Of All Things, Make God Evil?
The reason I’m sharing this particular exchange is because it includes assumptions and arguments that are typical and that show up in Calvinist forums like this one with increasing frequency. Some people simply cannot conceive of God being absolutely sovereign so they attempt to argue against...
forums.carm.org
T
TomFL
Guest
First depravity is not total inability
Depravity is true total inability is not
Nowhere does the bible state men would be unable to to respond to God; that could neither understand or respond to God in any positive manner
Deut. 30:10–19 —ESV
“when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
¶ “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
¶ “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,”
Further the fact that men had to be blinded or spoken to in parables to prevent them from understanding truth shows the doctrine is false
John 12:40 —ESV
“¶ “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.””
Does a blind man need a blindfold to stop him from seeing
Is it necessary to speak to men in parable so they would not understand if they were born unable to understand spiritual things
Mark 4:11–12 —ESV
“And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,
so that “‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’””
Is there and reason for the god of this world to blind anyone if they cannot se spiritual truth
2 Cor. 4:4 —ESV
“In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”
Rather we see men grow calloused, harden in time
Acts 28:27 —ESV
“For this people’s heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed; lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’”
brightfame52
Well-known member
Total Spiritual inability. Man naturally cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God 1 Cor 2 14 cannot come to Christ Jn 6 44,65, cannot hear the word of God Jn 8 43. Much more
T
TomFL
Guest
Naturally you address nothing
Deut. 30:10–19 —ESV
“when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
¶ “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
¶ “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,”
Further the fact that men had to be blinded or spoken to in parables to prevent them from understanding truth shows the doctrine is false
John 12:40 —ESV
“¶ “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.””
Does a blind man need a blindfold to stop him from seeing
Is it necessary to speak to men in parable so they would not understand if they were born unable to understand spiritual things
Mark 4:11–12 —ESV
“And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,
so that “‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’””
Is there and reason for the god of this world to blind anyone if they cannot se spiritual truth
2 Cor. 4:4 —ESV
“In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”
Rather we see men grow calloused, harden in time
Acts 28:27 —ESV
“For this people’s heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed; lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’”
The passage you quote is about receiving divine revelation directly from the Spirit it says nothing at all about understanding the written or preached word
2 Tim. 3:15 —ESV
“and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.”
John 20:31 —ESV
“but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
brightfame52
Well-known member
I address with this: Man naturally cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God 1 Cor 2 14 cannot come to Christ Jn 6 44,65, cannot hear the word of God Jn 8 43. Much more
T
TomFL
Guest
It is only your misunderstanding
Deut. 30:10–19 —ESV
“when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
¶ “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
¶ “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,”
Further the fact that men had to be blinded or spoken to in parables to prevent them from understanding truth shows the doctrine is false
John 12:40 —ESV
“¶ “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.””
Does a blind man need a blindfold to stop him from seeing
Is it necessary to speak to men in parable so they would not understand if they were born unable to understand spiritual things
Mark 4:11–12 —ESV
“And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,
so that “‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’””
Is there and reason for the god of this world to blind anyone if they cannot se spiritual truth
2 Cor. 4:4 —ESV
“In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”
Rather we see men grow calloused, harden in time
Acts 28:27 —ESV
“For this people’s heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed; lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’”
The passage you quote is about receiving divine revelation directly from the Spirit it says nothing at all about understanding the written or preached word
2 Tim. 3:15 —ESV
“and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.”
John 20:31 —ESV
“but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
and John 6:45 shows men can come to Christ once they
John 6:45 —ESV
“It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—”
they have heard and learned from the Father
Chalcedon
Well-known member
Jacob Arminius writes,
Arminius further writes,
hope this helps !!!
“IN the state of Primitive Innocence, man had a mind endued with a clear understanding of heavenly light and truth concerning God, and his works and will, as far as was sufficient for the salvation of man and the glory of God; he had a heart imbued with ‘righteousness and true holiness,’ and with a true and saving love of good; and powers abundantly qualified or furnished perfectly to fulfill the law which God had imposed on him. This admits easily of proof, from the description of the image of God, after which man is said to have been created, (Gen 1:26-27) from the law divinely imposed on him, which had a promise and a threat appended to it, (Gen 2:17) and lastly from the analogous restoration of the same image in Christ Jesus. (Eph 4:24, Col 3:10)
But man was not so confirmed in this state of innocence, as to be incapable of being moved, by the representation presented to him of some good, (whether it was of an inferior kind and relating to this animal life, or of a superior-kind and relating to spiritual life) inordinately and unlawfully to look upon it and to desire it, and of his own spontaneous as well as free motion, and through a preposterous desire for that good, to decline from the obedience which had been prescribed to him. Nay, having turned away from the light of his own mind and his chief good, which is God, or, at least, having turned towards that chief good not in the manner in which he ought to have done, and besides having turned in mind and heart towards an inferior good, he transgressed the command given to him for life. By this foul deed, he precipitated himself from that noble and elevated condition into a state of the deepest infelicity, which is under the dominion of sin. For ‘to whom any one yields himself a servant to obey,’ (Rom 6:16) and ‘of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage,’ and is his regularly assigned slave. (2 Pet 2:19)
In this state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, ‘Without me ye can do nothing.’ St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: ‘Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing.’ That this may be made more manifestly to appear, we will separately consider the mind, the affections or will, and the capability, as contra-distinguished from them, as well as the life itself of an unregenerate man.”
But man was not so confirmed in this state of innocence, as to be incapable of being moved, by the representation presented to him of some good, (whether it was of an inferior kind and relating to this animal life, or of a superior-kind and relating to spiritual life) inordinately and unlawfully to look upon it and to desire it, and of his own spontaneous as well as free motion, and through a preposterous desire for that good, to decline from the obedience which had been prescribed to him. Nay, having turned away from the light of his own mind and his chief good, which is God, or, at least, having turned towards that chief good not in the manner in which he ought to have done, and besides having turned in mind and heart towards an inferior good, he transgressed the command given to him for life. By this foul deed, he precipitated himself from that noble and elevated condition into a state of the deepest infelicity, which is under the dominion of sin. For ‘to whom any one yields himself a servant to obey,’ (Rom 6:16) and ‘of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage,’ and is his regularly assigned slave. (2 Pet 2:19)
In this state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, ‘Without me ye can do nothing.’ St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: ‘Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing.’ That this may be made more manifestly to appear, we will separately consider the mind, the affections or will, and the capability, as contra-distinguished from them, as well as the life itself of an unregenerate man.”
Arminius further writes,
“THIS is my opinion concerning the free-will of man: In his primitive condition as he came out of the hands of his creator, man was endowed with such a portion of knowledge, holiness and power, as enabled him to understand, esteem, consider, will, and to perform the true good, according to the commandment delivered to him. Yet none of these acts could he do, except through the assistance of Divine Grace. But in his lapsed and sinful state man is not capable of and by himself, either to think to will or to do that which is really good but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect affections or will and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. When he is made a partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing and doing that which is good, but yet not without the continued aids of Divine Grace.” https://www.ccel.org/ccel/arminius/works1.v.xii.html
hope this helps !!!
Sketo
Well-known member
You missed the point...
Is the Depravity, of all men, after the fall, a consequence of Adams sin, determined by God in his command to Adam in the Garden?
For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners... - Romans 5:19
Is God the cause of all mans sin? If so does this necessarily make God evil???
So again... this was in response to your post...
Is the Depravity, of all men, after the fall, a consequence of Adams sin, determined by God in his command to Adam in the Garden?
For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners... - Romans 5:19
Is God the cause of all mans sin? If so does this necessarily make God evil???
Does Gods Meticulous Determination, Of All Things, Make God Evil?
The reason I’m sharing this particular exchange is because it includes assumptions and arguments that are typical and that show up in Calvinist forums like this one with increasing frequency. Some people simply cannot conceive of God being absolutely sovereign so they attempt to argue against...
forums.carm.org
T
TomFL
Guest
You need to differentiate between inherited depravity and total inability they are not the same
In general All the early fathers believed in depravity but not total inability
So yes depravity is a result of the fall
Last edited by a moderator:
Theo1689
Well-known member
What is your EVIDENCE for your claim?
Barnabas, associate of Paul (A.D. 70): “Learn: before we believed in God, the habitation of our heart was corrupt and weak.”
Ignatius (A.D. 110): “They that are carnal [unbelievers] cannot do the things that are spiritual…Nor can the unbelievers do the things of belief.”
Justin Martyr (A.D. 150): “Mankind by Adam fell under death, and the deception of the serpent; we are born sinners…No good thing dwells in us…For neither by nature, nor by human understanding is it possible for me to acquire the knowledge of things so great and so divine, but by the energy of the Divine Spirit…Of ourselves it is impossible to enter the kingdom of God…He has convicted us of the impossibility of our nature to obtain life…Free will has destroyed us; we who were free are become slaves and for our sin are sold…Being pressed down by our sins, we cannot move upward toward God; we are like birds who have wings, but are unable to fly.”
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 190): “The soul cannot rise nor fly, nor be lifted up above the things that are on high, without special grace.”
Origen: “Our free will…or human nature is not sufficient to seek God in any manner.”
Eusebius (A.D. 330): “The liberty of our will in choosing things that are good is destroyed.”
Augustine (A.D. 370): “If, therefore, they are servants of sin (2 Cor. 3:17), why do they boast of free will?…O, man! Learn from the precept what you ought to do; learn from correction, that it is your own fault you have not the power…Let human effort, which perished by Adam, here be silent, and let the grace of God reign by Jesus Christ…What God promises, we ourselves do not through free will of human nature, but He Himself does by grace within us…Men labor to find in our own will something that is our own, and not God’s; how can they find it, I know not.”
T
TomFL
Guest
All the verses already posted show the second century fathers believed in free will
There is an op you can look at
It was Augustine who came with total inability
And it should not be presumed depravity which the father's held to is the same as total inability which insists man is unable to believe or respond to God in any positive manner and is born a hater of God
Last edited by a moderator:
Sketo
Well-known member
We can stick with “inherited” depravity. i.e. “inherited “ sin nature!
Would you agree that by Gods “design” we “inherited” depravity from Adam at the fall?
brightfame52
Well-known member
No natural men dont have the spiritual capacity to understand the word of God or the things of the Spirit.
T
TomFL
Guest
I agree we inherit depravity from Adam's fall. I already stated that and I guess you could calll it God's design because he created us
ReverendRV
Well-known member
Sometimes these things are more clear when we invoke the likes of the Fallen Angels instead of Humanity. God created the Archangel Lucifer, while knowing Lucifer would Fall. Omniscience + Creation = Predestination...
And also finding the right word to use in your argument helps; like God 'Sanctioning'the Damnation of Lucifer via Fore Knowledge and Creation...
Sketo
Well-known member
...
Seriously Tom.... “I guess”??? You know!!!
Do you know what your “I guess” does to you in reguards to this question...
...
...
Is this “obviously contrary to any idea that God is the cause of all of men's sin!”???
Your fight against Compatiblism is over Tom!
Last edited:
T
TomFL
Guest
Jack Hammer
Member
Predestination; Calvinist are the only ones I know of who distort John 3:16!
Sketo
Well-known member
Yes...
Does Gods Meticulous Determination, Of All Things, Make God Evil?
The reason I’m sharing this particular exchange is because it includes assumptions and arguments that are typical and that show up in Calvinist forums like this one with increasing frequency. Some people simply cannot conceive of God being absolutely sovereign so they attempt to argue against...
forums.carm.org
It still serves the same purpose!