The Double Predestination Of Non-Calvinists!

T

TomFL

Guest
Yes...

It still serves the same purpose!
and how does that prove meticulous determination of all things ?

or deal with what is a false definition of sovereignty ?
 

His clay

Well-known member
There is a big difference in allowing creatures to do what they will and determining what they do

Knowledge does not equal determination
Is there a reason why you ignored God's determinative act of creation? Even if you grant a deist approach to God's providence, you still have the problem of the initial starting point being determined by God with full knowledge of its entailments.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Is there a reason why you ignored God's determinative act of creation? Even if you grant a deist approach to God's providence, you still have the problem of the initial starting point being determined by God with full knowledge of its entailments.
Welcome back!

Edit to add ~ I'm bruisermiller...
 

His clay

Well-known member
Welcome back!

Edit to add ~ I'm bruisermiller...
Hi bruisermiller! I hope that you are doing well. It might be a bit too optimistic to say that I'm back. I guess that I am for the moment. Life is super busy, but I thought that I would add a quick 2 cents. I will probably not have much time to interact here. But it is nice to see "familiar faces" here in the forum.

("familiar faces" <--stated as an expression, because its not as if we can see each other)
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Is there a reason why you ignored God's determinative act of creation? Even if you grant a deist approach to God's providence, you still have the problem of the initial starting point being determined by God with full knowledge of its entailments.
The material creation ?

What has that to do with the actions of man ?
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Be careful how you judge Calvinism on the doctrine of Predestination... you might be judging your own understanding also!

Is God evil if he makes a choice that directly determines the ultimate destination of each individual?

Before you answer... ask these questions of your own understanding...

Does your God, immutably, know the ultimate destination of every individual, before he creates them, and willingly chooses to create them anyway?

Does God have to create those individuals he immutably foreknew would end up in hell?

Can “freewill”, at any point, change the immutability of Gods foreknowledge of where they will ultimately end up?

Did you know that you actually believe in a double predestination because by God immutably knowing their ultimate destination God is destining those individuals, to heaven or hell, by simply choosing to create them when he does not have to in the first place?

Do you consider the God of Freewillism evil for choosing to create people who, he immutably knows, have no other destination other than hell?


Omniscience + Creation = Predestination!

The Consistent Calvinist asks “If God knows that by creating you, you will wind up in hell, how is God not determined you to end up in hell by [creating] you?”

Then The Consistent Calvinist answers Leighton’s most common objection to this question!

Episode 1 from 3:13:54 - 3:19:29…


 

Sketo

Well-known member
A smart fella; is that you?
It’s not me. It’s Collin from the Consistent Calvinism Podcast.
He has allowed me to use his content to create these CCShort videos.
We work together on Twitter.
If you are interested in seeing more of these you can check out my YouTube channel and I also have 40 episodes, so far, on twitter now…
Click here…
 

Sketo

Well-known member
You know it's against CARM rules to promote your own work in the forums, right?
He asked… I answered… that’s all. He seamed interested. I’m not trying to promote anything.

The videos I posted are directly relevant to my own O.P. In each thread.

If this was against any rules I was not aware. Please let me know and I will abide…
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
If this was against any rules I was not aware. Please let me know and I will abide…

For your information...


8. Advertising: (Self-Promotion)
  1. You will not post any messages anywhere on the discussion boards or CARM message systems that are soliciting outside personal contact, no self-promotion or advertising, promotion of any websites, videos, other discussion boards, blogs, FB pages, email address, business, MLM (Multi-Level Marketing or pyramid schemes), activity, church, ministry, prophetic services, youtube videos or any other entities or services that you have an affiliation.
I'm not claiming to be a moderator, I just don't want you to get in trouble.
In all honesty, I have a feeling that I'd agree with the content of the videos, but since you seem to have posted 8-10 already, it not only got annoying, but seemed to verge on spamming. That's just my personal opinion.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
For your information...


8. Advertising: (Self-Promotion)
  1. You will not post any messages anywhere on the discussion boards or CARM message systems that are soliciting outside personal contact, no self-promotion or advertising, promotion of any websites, videos, other discussion boards, blogs, FB pages, email address, business, MLM (Multi-Level Marketing or pyramid schemes), activity, church, ministry, prophetic services, youtube videos or any other entities or services that you have an affiliation.
I'm not claiming to be a moderator, I just don't want you to get in trouble.
In all honesty, I have a feeling that I'd agree with the content of the videos, but since you seem to have posted 8-10 already, it not only got annoying, but seemed to verge on spamming. That's just my personal opinion.
I apologize. My intention was not to “annoy”. I will cease promoting my YT channel. Thank you for the info and looking out for me.
 

eternomade

Well-known member
The Consistent Calvinist asks “If God knows that by creating you, you will wind up in hell, how is God not determined you to end up in hell by [creating] you?”

Then The Consistent Calvinist answers Leighton’s most common objection to this question!

Episode 1 from 3:13:54 - 3:19:29…


Are you a consistent Calvinist?
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
He asked… I answered… that’s all. He seamed interested. I’m not trying to promote anything.

The videos I posted are directly relevant to my own O.P. In each thread.

If this was against any rules I was not aware. Please let me know and I will abide…
If you're not a supermember you can't post memes, images, videos &c.
 

Terry43

Active member
Sorry you need to show they are consistent with a view that makes God the cause of all sin

James 1:13–14 —ESV
“Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.”

1 Cor. 10:13 —ESV
“No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”

Job 34:10–12 —ESV
“¶ “Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong.
For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him.
Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice.”

do you own work for a change
God ordined the fall of man , God ordained the crucification of Christ before the foundation of the earth..
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Concerning your third reply to TomFL above, what you are not considering in this however, is that this nature to be children of wrath took hold of them the moment they followed into temptation and sinned and through the same weak but sinless human nature that Adam also was created with and which he also sinned with.

Incorrect…

That is when they developed a sin nature and not before it, for they had a choice and so do all who are born with the same weak but sin free human nature that Adam had and passed on to us.

Romans 5:19 states “For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners,”

If Adam created with the ability to “sin” then this verse is referring to something other than mere “ability”… don’t you agree?

Do you agree that this verse states that we are “madedifferent than Adam… or was Adam also “made a sinner”?
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Incorrect…

You have to do more than just saying I am incorrect, for you have to prove it from the scriptures.
Romans 5:19 states “For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners,”

However, you are misunderstanding what Paul is actually revealing here.

So let me ask you this then, are the many made born again and righteous through the one man Jesus Christ automatically without their choice to repent and believe and while you say they become sinners automatically just by being born Adam's descendants alone?


Notice the words born and born again here also, for what you end up saying is that Adam's nature to sin comes on everyone automatically and without their choice only because they are born Adam's descendants, while in order to be born again and made righteous through Christ Jesus, we all have to choose to repent and believe the gospel message.

Notice that Paul uses the words "gift of righteousness through the one man Jesus Christ" here also but he never says this about what Adam created for us by his sin.



So how then would Paul's words "much more" concerning what Jesus did for us by his obedience make any sense at all then?



For Paul very clearly says that what the one man Jesus Christ did was much more than what the one man Adam did and if Adam makes us a sinner automatically by only our being born, then how is what Jesus did much more when we have to repent and believe in order to receive the gift of righteousness through him?


Indeed Adam's failure to obey God makes us a sinner but not because his sin nature is passed on to us automatically at birth but because he never ate of the Tree of Life to receive the indwelling Holy Spirit and the fruit of the Spirit for himself and his descendants.

Therefore you are born without an inner relationship with God by the Holy Spirit and therefore wide open to the Devil and his temptations that Adam also allowed to enter this world because of his sin and those temptation grew worse with each generation of his descendants right up unto this present day also.

For Adam only had one single temptation to overcome but when he sinned he brought many more temptations into this world and they have grown worse in every generation since then.
If Adam created with the ability to “sin” then this verse is referring to something other than mere “ability”… don’t you agree?

No, because although God created him exactly the way he wanted him sinless but not completed yet, God required that Adam make a choice to be completed in God's image and that choice would be made by his faith in God's word unto him over the words of the Devil and his temptation.


Therefore if Adam had of put his faith in God's word and resisted the Devil, then he would have passed the test once and for all of whether or not he desired God above all else and he also would have proven his offspring to do likewise.

So he would have become the life giving spirit that Jesus later became because of his obedience that Adam failed in and as Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:45-47 reveals below.


1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.

So we see then, that Adam never became a Spirit filled man and therefore not having an inner relationship with God by the Spirit, he passed his unperfected nature on to his offspring and therefore we are born wide open to the Devil and his temptations to sin.


But we only become a sinner when we choose ourselves to sin and not by what Adam did alone.


Do you agree that this verse states that we are “madedifferent than Adam… or was Adam also “made a sinner”?

No, because that isn't what Paul is saying here at all, but only that what Adam did causes us to make the same choice of our own will to sin like he himself did and because he never passed a perfected nature upon his descendants but rather the same unperfected nature that he was created with himself and which he sinned with also.

What Adam did being created without sin, proves what we would also do likewise, and it also proves that one doesn't have to have a sin nature to sin, for God didn't create Adam with a sin nature, and will you agree with that ?


So then, you don't sin because you have a sin nature but because you have the same imperfect nature that Adam was created with and also because Adam by his sin brought many temptations and sins into this world that never existed in his world and which is what Paul says in Romans 5 below.


Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned




One last thing here, Adam also brought the curse of death on the whole earth including the other living creatures that God had made, for when he sinned the anointing was removed from the earth that protected every living creature from death and therefore all die.


Therefore, even though babies are not born automatic sinners like the churches falsely believe about them, they can still die as babies because they are born without an inward relationship with God through the Holy Spirit to protect them from the curse that Adam also brought upon this earth.


Nevertheless because we are all born with same sinless but unperfected human nature that God created Adam with and because we are born into a world of many temptations and also because of Adam's sin, we will all choose to sin just like Adam did very soon after we are born.

But we will only be guilty as sinners when we ourselves make the choice to sin ourselves and with our own free will, just like Adam did and not because Adam's sin nature was passed upon us without our choice.


Read Ezekiel 18 the whole chapter and also Jeremiah 31:29-34, for God hates this doctrine of original sin and these passages prove that he does also, for a man is only guilty for the sin that he chooses to do himself and not by what was passed onto him by his Father without his choice.
 
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