Sketo
Well-known member
…is this including before he “sinned”?
“one man” is not the same as “the many”… don’t you agree?
What does the phrase “the many were made sinners” mean sense this part is not referring to “Adam”?
The Double Predestination Of Non-Calvinists!
- Thread starter Sketo
- Start date
“one man” is not the same as “the many”… don’t you agree?
What does the phrase “the many were made sinners” mean sense this part is not referring to “Adam”?
Except scripture refutes that idea
Jeremiah 19:5 (ESV)
5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—
James 1:13–14 (KJV 1900)
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
1 John 2:16 (KJV 1900)
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Such things are not from God
Sketo
Well-known member
Only when you try to conflate the Storyline Level context of these passages with Transcendent Level causation! Calvinism distinguishes between the two so in order to properly represent Calvinism you must distinguish between the two also or you are misrepresenting Calvinism!
Example of Storyline Level and Transcendent Level causation…
Exodus 9:33-10:2
[33] So Moses went out of the city from Pharaoh and stretched out his hands to the LORD, and the thunder and the hail ceased, and the rain no longer poured upon the earth. [34] But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet again and hardened his heart, he and his servants. [35] So the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people of Israel go, just as the LORD had spoken through Moses.
[1] Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs of mine among them, [2] and that you may tell in the hearing of your son and of your grandson how I have dealt harshly with the Egyptians and what signs I have done among them, that you may know that I am the LORD.”
This is where you conflate, and assume, and teach that there is no distinction between Storyline Level context and Transcendent Level context;
God did not command it or “SPEAK” it as a proper way of warship.
Neither did it enter his mind as a proper way of warship!
This is the only version that uses the word “decree” instead of speak and it is in the context of a Storyline Level direct command or “spoken” decree across the land… it is not referring to the Transcendent Level context of which these things could not have came to pass by any other power other than God.
semi-Deism is a heresy not supported by the Bible!
I see no problem with this verse when you do not conflate the Storyline context passages as if they are referring to Transcendent Level Ultimate causes!
No problem here!
This passage states that God is not the direct Storyline Level tempter… this passage does not deny that God causes people to be tempted!
Matthew 4:1 “Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.”
“The devil” is the Storyline tempter NOT God… but the Spirit did cause Jesus to be tempted!
Matthew 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
Why pray to God to “not lead you into temptation” if it is not something that he does? If he doesn’t then this prayer is blasphemy.
So… no problem with this passage either!
Correct… these things, on the Storyline Level, are “not from God”… on the Storyline Level!
However… Hebrews 1:3 teaches that all of these things “of the world” are held in existence and sustained to come to pass by none other than “the word of Gods Power”!
God is the Ultimate, Transcendent Level, cause of why all of these things happen…
BUT you are correct to point out that he is not the direct cause, on the Storyline Level, as to why these things come to pass.
No problem with this passage either!
Utter nonsense
Scripture clearly states it did not enter his mind that they should do it
and you are simply assuming your theology
that nothing could come to pass if God has not put his power into it
that is begging the question
The bible nowhere states men cannot sin unless God exerts his power to cause if
Yet according to you God puts his power into causing men to sin in your view each and time a sin is committed
which leads to the ridiculous conclusion God redeems what he accomplished by his power sending Christ to die because of what he had caused
Totally absurd
Sketo
Well-known member
... as a proper act of warship... not that it did not enter his mind at all. To state otherwise is to deny God's foreknowledge.
It's not "assuming" when I can Logically and Biblically justify my claim!
What other Ultimate power is there? You assume you “Power” yourself but there is no biblical justification for this idea.
In fact the very opposite is the case…
Hebrews 1:2-3
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Colossians 1:16-17
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Acts 17:24-28
The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man,
for “‘In him we live and move and have our being’;
as even some of your own poets have said,
“‘For we are indeed his offspring.’
And there is ZERO JUSTIFICATION for any other worldview…
Hebrews 1:3 “he upholds the universe by the word of his power.”
Colossians 1:17 “he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”
Acts 17:28 “In him we live and move and have our being”
You can assume a semi-Deistic Dualistic worldview if you want but there is zero biblical foundation to support it!
You may assume it is “ridiculous” because it does not allow any room for your semi-Deism or Dualism but it’s justified by the Bible itself.
Even you believe that God created this world, knowing that sin would be part of it, for the very reason to Glorify himself by dying on a cross to redeem those sinners… it’s absurd that you think God’s plan, before the foundation of the world, is “Totally absurd”…