The End Times . . . .

Nondenom40

Super Member
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. John 16:33

So why do Protestants today, from the most pampered and self indulgent generation in history, believe that they don't have to face tribulation when all other generations did?
We've never made that claim. Of course there will be tribulation, persecution and trouble in general for us. What we won't be a part of is Gods wrath which occurs during the great tribulation. The tribulation is an event, not what occurs in the daily lives of believers. There are some good books on the subject.
 

leonard03782

Well-known member
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. John 16:33

So why do Protestants today, from the most pampered and self indulgent generation in history, believe that they don't have to face tribulation when all other generations did?
Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
 

mica

Well-known member
We've never made that claim. Of course there will be tribulation, persecution and trouble in general for us. What we won't be a part of is Gods wrath which occurs during the great tribulation. The tribulation is an event, not what occurs in the daily lives of believers. There are some good books on the subject.
yes, Hal Lindsay wrote one... :)

I sorted thru a box of old books about a month ago and guess what I pulled out of it? Hal's book!
 

RiJoRi

Well-known member
So why do Protestants today, from the most pampered and self indulgent generation in history, believe that they don't have to face tribulation when all other generations did?
Assumption. Not all Protestants think we won't face the Great Tribulation to one extent or another. (Although I'll admit that the pre-Tribbers have some fine graphics!)

--Rich
 

pilgrim

Well-known member
Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
So God will protect us if we keep His word. There is no rapture mentioned.
 

leonard03782

Well-known member
So God will protect us if we keep His word. There is no rapture mentioned.
You read those verses like the true rc that you are. You cherry picked the eight words that "supported" your opinion and you disregarded the rest of the texts. Do you really think that this response surprises any Christian on this forum? It doesn't. It will not be to long before you get a first hand lesson in bible prophecy and the wrath of the one, true , and Most Holy GOD.
 

Nic

Well-known member
The "end times" and the "rapture" is just another one of those evangelical ides that wasn't in vogue until the 1970's, brought to the fore by writer Hal Lindsay. It is just another false doctrine by you folks. So not only is it the 16th century when you people start making things up, it continues on right into the 20th.
Well I once recall coming across John Darby and something about a vision from an ill teenage girl.
 

pilgrim

Well-known member
You read those verses like the true rc that you are. You cherry picked the eight words that "supported" your opinion and you disregarded the rest of the texts. Do you really think that this response surprises any Christian on this forum? It doesn't. It will not be to long before you get a first hand lesson in bible prophecy and the wrath of the one, true , and Most Holy GOD.
Well, was I supposed to ignore them?
 
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mica

Well-known member
leonard03782 said:
You read those verses like the true rc that you are. You cherry picked the eight words that "supported" your opinion and you disregarded the rest of the texts. Do you really think that this response surprises any Christian on this forum? It doesn't. It will not be to long before you get a first hand lesson in bible prophecy and the wrath of the one, true , and Most Holy GOD.
Well, was I supposed to ignore them?
catholics ignore most verses in scripture. They like to pick out a few verses that the RCC teaches them and ignore the others. no reading or understanding them in context.
 

Black Knight M.I.

New Member
LOL! So the "end times". . . "is just another one of those evangelical ideas that wasn't in vogue until the 1970's and brought to the fore by writer Hal Lindsay."
That's not what he said. The fact is that it wasn't until CoI preacher Charles Nelson Darby began to preach the rapture in the 1800s.
Pre-tribulation rapture theology was popularized extensively in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren,[1] and further popularized in the United States in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible.[2]

Catholics actually do have plenty of teaching about the end times. Maybe this will help you get the idea.
670 Since the Ascension God's plan has entered into its fulfillment. We are already at "the last hour".554 "Already the final age of the world is with us, and the renewal of the world is irrevocably under way; it is even now anticipated in a certain real way, for the Church on earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real but imperfect."555 Christ's kingdom already manifests its presence through the miraculous signs that attend its proclamation by the Church.556
. . .until all things are subjected to him
671
Though already present in his Church, Christ's reign is nevertheless yet to be fulfilled "with power and great glory" by the King's return to earth.557 This reign is still under attack by the evil powers, even though they have been defeated definitively by Christ's Passover.557 Until everything is subject to him, "until there be realized new heavens and a new earth in which justice dwells, the pilgrim Church, in her sacraments and institutions, which belong to this present age, carries the mark of this world which will pass, and she herself takes her place among the creatures which groan and travail yet and await the revelation of the sons of God."559 That is why Christians pray, above all in the Eucharist, to hasten Christ's return by saying to him:560 Marana tha! "Our Lord, come!"561
672 Before his Ascension Christ affirmed that the hour had not yet come for the glorious establishment of the messianic kingdom awaited by Israel562 which, according to the prophets, was to bring all men the definitive order of justice, love and peace.563 According to the Lord, the present time is the time of the Spirit and of witness, but also a time still marked by "distress" and the trial of evil which does not spare the Church564 and ushers in the struggles of the last days. It is a time of waiting and watching.565
The glorious advent of Christ, the hope of Israel
673
Since the Ascension Christ's coming in glory has been imminent,566 even though "it is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority."567. This eschatological coming could be accomplished at any moment, even if both it and the final trial that will precede it are "delayed".568
674 The glorious Messiah's coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by "all Israel", for "a hardening has come upon part of Israel" in their "unbelief" toward Jesus.569 St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old."570 St. Paul echoes him: "For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?"571 The "full inclusion" of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation, in the wake of "the full number of the Gentiles",572 will enable the People of God to achieve "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ", in which "God may be all in all".573
The Church's ultimate trial
675
Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576
676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.578
677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.580 God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.581
* II. TO JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD
678
Following in the steps of the prophets and John the Baptist, Jesus announced the judgment of the Last Day in his preaching.582 Then will the conduct of each one and the secrets of hearts be brought to light.583 Then will the culpable unbelief that counted the offer of God's grace as nothing be condemned.584 Our attitude to our neighbor will disclose acceptance or refusal of grace and divine love.585 On the Last Day Jesus will say: "Truly I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me."586
679 Christ is Lord of eternal life. Full right to pass definitive judgment on the works and hearts of men belongs to him as redeemer of the world. He "acquired" this right by his cross. The Father has given "all judgment to the Son".587 Yet the Son did not come to judge, but to save and to give the life he has in himself.588 By rejecting grace in this life, one already judges oneself, receives according to one's works, and can even condemn oneself for all eternity by rejecting the Spirit of love.589
 
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leonard03782

Well-known member
So God will protect us if we keep His word. There is no rapture mentioned.
The problem is that a vast majority of the world's population rejects Jesus, including most rc's. Therefore God must judge the world and bring wrath upon it as His word says. The three verses that you ignored show that Christians will be kept from that time of wrath.
 

mica

Well-known member
That's not what he said. The fact is that it wasn't until CoI preacher Charles Nelson Darby began to preach the rapture in the 1800s.
Pre-tribulation rapture theology was popularized extensively in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren,[1] and further popularized in the United States in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible.[2]

Catholics actually do have plenty of teaching about the end times. Maybe this will help you get the idea.
the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.
sounds very catholic - submitting to the pope instead of Christ.
 

RiJoRi

Well-known member
That's not what he said. The fact is that it wasn't until CoI preacher Charles Nelson Darby began to preach the rapture in the 1800s.
Pre-tribulation rapture theology was popularized extensively in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren,[1] and further popularized in the United States in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible.[2]
While the pre-Trib Rapture is quite popular in some circles, it is not the only view. There are those who see a mid-Trib, or even a post-Trib Rapture.
 

Black Knight M.I.

New Member
sounds very catholic - submitting to the pope instead of Christ.
You wish, however again I say that if one is a "Bible Only Christian" then one should base one's beliefs upon what the Bible actually says and not one's own (or some other teacher's) all too fallible misinterpretation of it.
 

RiJoRi

Well-known member
This I know. How do you know which is correct interpretation then?
Easy. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best! Over the course of my life I've held — at different times — all three views of the timing of the Rapture with regards to the great Tribulation. Each view has its proponents, and Scripture to support it.
Nowadays, I like to keep in mind that the Jews of Jesus' day "knew", without any doubt, how their Messiah would come, what He would do, and maybe even how He would do it. (They may even have had cool graphics! 😁) But they blew it. Totally. God "managed" (so to speak) to fulfill His prophecies in a way humans would not / could not foresee. So there's no reason to think that He cannot do it again regarding His return.

--Rich
 
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