The Evangelical translation of Romans 8:16

BJ Bear

Well-known member
and why it matters.

"The Spirit himself testifies to our spirit that we are the children of God." Romans 8:16, an English rendering of Luther's translation

A common non Evangelical English translation tradition which uses an obsolete or ambiguous preposition is that of the KJV, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:” (Rom 8:16, KJVA)

The translation matters because by definition the gospel of Jesus Christ in the narrow sense is the objective true good news of the person and work of Jesus for all men and to all men. This witness is the role of the Spirit.

Those who are unaware of or deny that the gospel is the objective true good news of the person and work of Christ for all men and to all men have no right frame of reference from which to understand Scripture since they deny the cardinal truth of Christ for them and to them.

Re Luther's Works, AE

This issue stands out like a sore thumb in the translation by Pelikan in Volume 24 of lectures on some later chapters of John. Rather than quote Luther he quoted a common English translation which uses the outdated or ambiguous English preposition, "with."

It is one of the hazards of trying to make Luther's works known to an audience of primarily English speakers. Pelikan, who was the General Editor and translator of that volune wrote in his introductory remarks that the translator bears the responsibility for the texts he chooses.

For grins and giggles I checked Walch, vol eight, and his work is consistent with Luther's translation.

Some examples of how this difference in translation and understanding manifests itself is in the denial by non Evangelicals (in the Scriptural and historical sense) of the objective true statements of Scripture with regard to baptism into Christ, wack-a-doodle claims regarding election or predestination, free will, the Lord's Supper, etc.

It is all happening in the incarnation of our LORD. :)
 
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BJ Bear

Well-known member
I checked BibleHub, and the vast majority of the translations have "with." Even Young's Literal Translation. I will need to check our interlinear about this verse.

Yes, that is the common English translation tradition. The Biblegateway samples are similar.

The BDAG, a good English dictionary, and commentaries on the passage written by those who accept the obsolete and/or ambiguous preposition "with" as a correct translation or the correct translation will demonstrate the shortcomings of that view.
 

Nic

Well-known member
and why it matters.

"The Spirit himself testifies to our spirit that we are the children of God." Romans 8:16, an English rendering of Luther's translation

A common non Evangelical English translation tradition which uses an obsolete or ambiguous preposition is that of the KJV, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:” (Rom 8:16, KJVA)

The translation matters because by definition the gospel of Jesus Christ in the narrow sense is the objective true good news of the person and work of Jesus for all men and to all men. This witness is the role of the Spirit.

Those who are unaware of or deny that the gospel is the objective true good news of the person and work of Christ for all men and to all men have no right frame of reference from which to understand Scripture since they deny the cardinal truth of Christ for them and to them.

Re Luther's Works, AE

This issue stands out like a sore thumb in the translation by Pelikan in Volume 24 of lectures on some later chapters of John. Rather than quote Luther he quoted a common English translation which uses the outdated or ambiguous English preposition, "with."

It is one of the hazards of trying to make Luther's works known to an audience of primarily English speakers. Pelikan, who was the General Editor and translator of that volune wrote in his introductory remarks that the translator bears the responsibility for the texts he chooses.

For grins and giggles I checked Walch, vol eight, and his work is consistent with Luther's translation.

Some examples of how this difference in translation and understanding manifests itself is in the denial by non Evangelicals (in the Scriptural and historical sense) of the objective true statements of Scripture with regard to baptism into Christ, wack-a-doodle claims regarding election or predestination, free will, the Lord's Supper, etc.

It is all happening in the incarnation of our LORD. :)
What a difference a preposition makes! It doesn't take long to run with the implications of usage of with. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
What a difference a preposition makes! It doesn't take long to run with the implications of usage of with. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
Hi Nic,

You're welcome. John and Romans have been on my mind again. The first guy I ever heard do a Bible study on Romans 9 without twisting it into something unrecognizable recently received his call to the church triumphant. Praise the Lord.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
The fourth edition of Beck's An American Translation does a good job with Romans 8:16, "This Spirit assures our spirit..." AAT
 

Authentic Nouveau

Well-known member
and why it matters.

"The Spirit himself testifies to our spirit that we are the children of God." Romans 8:16, an English rendering of Luther's translation
Your rendering is false.

6 Derselbe Geist gibt Zeugnis unserem Geist, daß wir Kinder Gottes sind.

One of us attended church which had preaching in German. Your "rendering" tries to make it like English.
Don't argue about German using English
You people are clearly not fluent in German.

Derselbe Geist translates = The same Spirit
Not the Spirit himself.

How in the world would you all know that English rendering was wrong?

There are a lot of verses in the Luther Deutsche Bible that display Biblical doctrine differently than the English Translations.

Lutherbibel was Martin's translation from Latin Bible, Jawohl?
 

Nic

Well-known member
Your rendering is false.

6 Derselbe Geist gibt Zeugnis unserem Geist, daß wir Kinder Gottes sind.

One of us attended church which had preaching in German. Your "rendering" tries to make it like English.
Don't argue about German using English
You people are clearly not fluent in German.

Derselbe Geist translates = The same Spirit
Not the Spirit himself.

How in the world would you all know that English rendering was wrong?

There are a lot of verses in the Luther Deutsche Bible that display Biblical doctrine differently than the English Translations.

Lutherbibel was Martin's translation from Latin Bible, Jawohl?
BJ's primary language is German...lol
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Your rendering is false.
Strike one! Years ago I quoted something from the Konkordienformel (the Formula of Concord) on the board and someone characterized it as high school German. Was that also you?
6 Derselbe Geist gibt Zeugnis unserem Geist, daß wir Kinder Gottes sind.
Strike Two! It looks like you're again quoting a German Bible which may or may not be an an update or revision of Luther's Bible. Why don't you post the publication details so it will be evident to all?
One of us attended church which had preaching in German. Your "rendering" tries to make it like English.
Don't argue about German using English
You people are clearly not fluent in German.
Strike three! You're out! This is a board that is primarily for English speakers. So it wouldn't be effective to explain German in German, Spanish, or any other language that isn't English.

Btw, unless the board rules have changed it is against the rules to post in a language other than English without a translation.
Derselbe Geist translates = The same Spirit
Not the Spirit himself.
Strike one! That is one way to translate it, see below for why it is only one way to translate it.
How in the world would you all know that English rendering was wrong?
Strike two! See below for the evidence.
There are a lot of verses in the Luther Deutsche Bible that display Biblical doctrine differently than the English Translations.
Foul ball! All translators express their doctrine and received custom through their translations. That is a major aspect of the focus of the OP, the focus of the post which you've passed over without direct comment.
Lutherbibel was Martin's translation from Latin Bible, Jawohl?
Strike three! You're out, again! What is commonly known as Luther's Bible was from the biblical languages. The NT was first translated by him from the Greek while at the Wartburg, 1521. I think it was first published in 1522.

With respect to your quibble, everyone can know what Luther was translating into German. It was a reflexive pronoun. My rendering of that pronoun as himself in English is a shot at those who translate it in English as itself. (People may misconstrue the genitive in verse 15.)
 

Nic

Well-known member
Thanks, Nic. I've had more formal training in German so in that sense it is primary, but English and German are second languages.
You're welcome. So now you have me wondering if Rev_T had it right when he called you Bjorn, was it?
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
You're welcome. So now you have me wondering if Rev_T had it right when he called you Bjorn, was it?
No, it is an ordinary English name, John. Circumstances made me hostile to English when I encountered it

Fwiw, my nic used to be bj -bear, but somewhere along the way a board upgrade made it so that dashes were no longer valid nic characters. I never tried to go back to that first nic. It was originally intended to indicate that big John is not a bear.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
You're welcome. So now you have me wondering if Rev_T had it right when he called you Bjorn, was it?
Wow, Nic! You've got a great memory. It took me a while to recall the details of what you mentioned, but somehow a video of a conference in a Scandinavian country became a topic of discussion. I knew the speaker and RevT knew other participants.

Bjorn is bear in several Scandinavian languages. Thanks for the stroll down memory lane. 😊
 

Nic

Well-known member
Wow, Nic! You've got a great memory. It took me a while to recall the details of what you mentioned, but somehow a video of a conference in a Scandinavian country became a topic of discussion. I knew the speaker and RevT knew other participants.

Bjorn is bear in several Scandinavian languages. Thanks for the stroll down memory lane. 😊
Thanks BJ.
Ah thank you! I miss his contributions. I know he almost left a fast as he arrived. He was clearly a learned man. One of my former pastors used to go to Finland to speak and he also addressed a very remote congregation of four females that did not have a pastor, though they met regularly. I believe the extenuating circumstances promoted some unusual church practice for the small group.
 
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BJ Bear

Well-known member
Thanks BJ.
Ah thank you! I miss his contributions. I know he almost left a fast as he arrived. He was clearly a learned man. One of my former pastors used to go to Finland to speak and he also addressed a very remote congregation of four females that did not have a pastor, though they met regularly. I believe the extenuating circumstances promoted some unusual church practice for the small group.
Yes, he brought a lot to the table. His explanation of Titus 3:5 based on his previous religion was really good, too bad I can't remember the specifics. Do you remember them?

The decline of the state churches across the pond did make for some unusual circumstances. Have you been keeping up with what is going on in Finland and the other Scandinavian countries? By now I would hope that the new Synods are firmly established.
 
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Nic

Well-known member
Yes, he brought a lot to the table. His explanation of Titus 3:5 based on his previous religion was really good, too bad I can't remember the specifics. Do you remember them?

The decline of the state churches across the pond did make for some unusual circumstances. Have you been keeping up with what is going on in Finland and the other Scandinavian countries? By now I would hope that the new Synods are firmly established.
Now I feel like I'm being tested. Lol.
I'd like to say I haven't slept yet. But the truth is I don't sleep much and i may nap a bit yet as I lay here. I had mom up for breakfast at 5 because she was dreaming and going through the motions of eating. I forgot the detail of his prior Judaism. I'll ponder it a bit when I get the chance and see what I may recall.
Well my former pastor and I separated some years back. He went on to pastor a new church in a rural area. I know at least initially he continued he travels to Finland. But that's been right at eight years ago. I've been homebound with mom that long almost. I used to try to listened to broadcast but I don't do much of anything except with mom. I had her clergy coming out for awhile then solicited an Episcopal priest and friend to pinch hit for a bit, but he looked as tired as me and I apologized and asked him to not be troubled with us.
p.s.
When people began to complain of going stir crazy during the lockdowns, I had empathy but also thought countless others such as myself do this day in and day out without covid concerns. Covid did help make online markets a bit more organized and competitive and so that seemed at least to be the case. So that was positive, if true.
 
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BJ Bear

Well-known member
Now I feel like I'm being tested. Lol.
I'd like to say I haven't slept yet. But the truth is I don't sleep much and i may nap a bit yet as I lay here. I had mom up for breakfast at 5 because she was dreaming and going through the motions of eating. I forgot the detail of his prior Judaism. I'll ponder it a bit when I get the chance and see what I may recall.
Well my former pastor and I separated some years back. He went on to pastor a new church in a rural area. I know at least initially he continued he travels to Finland. But that's been right at eight years ago. I've been homebound with mom that long almost. I used to try to listened to broadcast but I don't do much of anything except with mom. I had her clergy coming out for awhile then solicited an Episcopal priest and friend to pinch hit for a bit, but he looked as tired as me and I apologized and asked him to not be troubled with us.
p.s.
When people began to complain of going stir crazy during the lockdowns, I had empathy but also thought countless others such as myself do this day in and day out without covid concerns. Covid did help make online markets a bit more organized and competitive and so that seemed at least to be the case. So that was positive, if true.
Lol. It is definitely not a test. It is just one of several notable topics which came up while he was here.

I hear you when it comes to being a primary caregiver. For what it is worth, my mother's insurance paid for someone to come in for four hours a week as a caregiver. It may not sound like much to those who are not primary caregivers, but that time is like gold to a primary caregiver.

God bless you and your Mom. Peace.
 
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