The faithful servant

[Aaron32]

So--what are you claiming? That you have other scriptures which cancel out the testimony of Matthew 25?

I have additional scripture that doesn't "cancel out" Matt 25, but adds more context to get past the "only-ism":

D&C 137:
9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

You may also want to note, given the parable used in the OP, King Benjamin said we are ALL "unprofitable servants" (Mosiah 2:12)

 

[Aaron32]

Sure.

"Volition" is will, or the ability to make choices.
"Autonomous" means absent any and all external control; unfettered.
"Free" means absent any and all external control; unfettered.
"Agency" means the capacity, condition, or state of acting or of exerting power or influence.
"Volitional agency" is the capacity to choose.
"Autonomous (volitional) agency" would be an unfettered ability or capacity to choose.

So ultimately you're saying the "fallen man" will make different choices than one that's saved.
And I'm guessing because those who are "saved" have regenerated hearts - and become new creations?
So to your request in clarifying "free agency"...
In mormonism, "free agency" is not the same as "free will". We can only act as "agents", and that "agency" can only come as we are made of the options to choose:
"man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other." (2 Ne 2:16)

And I would generally disagree that the agency of even those who are saved are "unfettered". It is unfettered in the degree of recognizing God's will beyond our own. But that doesn't necessarily mean a saved man will actually choose it. Thus Paul proclaim "Oh wretched man that I am!"
An individual's path to "Divine Nature" begins at the gate, and that gate being baptism. D&C 93 talks about how to receive a "fulness of glory" (which is light & truth) which originates from the Father and explains how Jesus received that fulness by "grace to grace".
As we receive a greater understanding of God's word, we obtain a greater understanding of God's will. We not only understand the law, but also the Spirit of the Law. Only in perfection, having complete understanding of light & truth is when our wills will become "unfettered". And that will be reflected is living God's laws perfectly, and naturally we become "One" with God and the Church of the Firstborn. Obviously, Mormons don't believe that will happen in the this life, but in the eternities.

Humans are not free to choose anything and everything. There are many limitations or constraints on human will, especially once compromised by sin. The Bible uses the term "free will," but it always does so within the context of God having created creation, God having created the human and the human will.

Agreed.

Have the thread all been read, in their entirety?

Nope. My circle of concern is only based on our interactions and the questions and topics that arise at hand.

db has argued for the efficacy of works in salvation and done so in the context of his belief everyone has been washed clean from their sin by Christ's atonement. Everyone got a "do-over," so to speak. What matters not is how you obey God once made clean. All the verses he cites were written to believers about believers, and most of them were written about Christians or people who'd heard the gospel and had applied to them a lot more than atonement. Implisit within his argument is the possibility of a non-believing, unregenerate atheist being saved because s/he's obeyed God's commands,

That is wrong.

Understanding the error begins with understanding the simple axiom: non-believers are not believers.

Yeah. I agree with you. It took me a while to understand the concept of Legalism and translate it my head filled with Mormon context.

If all one understands is:
"...that which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same." "Faith alone" and understanding the role of grace isn't readily apparent on the surface. But it's there if one is willing to actually study beyond what they hear in Sunday School.

The challenge is that traditional Christianity generally only addresses one Law, while Mormonism addresses three.
Understanding came for me realizing the difference between "justification" and "sanctification", or as Mormons might call it "salvation" and "exaltation".

Posts from Christians evangelizing to Mormons describe obedience as burdensome, and often assume the Mormons' only motivations are only out of self-interest (something other than the desire to glorify God). So I believe the Mormon respond to the opposite side of the spectrum, creating a false dichotomy of Legalism vs Easy Grace.

I spent months trying to convey the concept of "Faith Alone" to my fellow Mormons with no avail, and now it's a banned topic on this board.
In my convos with dberrie, he would not compromise his apriori belief that Christians believe they are saved with dead faith. I found it a futile effort to convince him otherwise and I just had to walk away.

 

[dberrie2020]

db has argued for the efficacy of works in salvation and done so in the context of his belief everyone has been washed clean from their sin by Christ's atonement.

Cite, please. I have never argued any such point.

 

[dberrie2020]

I have additional scripture that doesn't "cancel out" Matt 25, but adds more context to get past the "only-ism":

D&C 137:
9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

You may also want to note, given the parable used in the OP, King Benjamin said we are ALL "unprofitable servants" (Mosiah 2:12)

I'm not sure how you are relating "only-ism" to the parable of the talents, or even what "only-ism" is. It's not a term I have used.

The parable of the talents has all the servants being judged according to what they did with their gifts--whether it be the "joy of thy lord"--or--"outer darkness", even though they were all servants to begin with.

What is there about that parable you disagree with?

Please explain how you are relating Mosiah2:12 to the judgment of the servants found in Matthew 25, as not all the servants were judged as unprofitable servants in Matthew 25.

 

[dberrie2020]

Implisit within his argument is the possibility of a non-believing, unregenerate atheist being saved because s/he's obeyed God's commands,

Could you inform us what "unregenerate atheist" obeys God's commands?

I've never made any such argument. If you believe I have--please give us a cite.

 

[Josheb]

This portion of the discussion spawned from me saying: "Salvation is a personal issue between an individual and God."
You said: "That is partly true. It is also partly false because God saves the nations, and the nation of His people. The individual and the corporate are not mutually exclusive conditions so care should be taken not to create false dichotomies."

Can you illustrate the relevance of your statement of "Non-believers are not believers" in the context of your other statement "God saves the nations"? If you've already posted this, just cite the posts and I'll check them out.

Let's start with a pair of Old Testament text and then a couple of texts from the New Testament.

Genesis 17:1-5
1 Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless. 2 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly." 3 Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying, 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.

Exodus 19:1-6
1 In the third month after the sons of Israel had gone out of the land of Egypt, on that very day they came into the wilderness of Sinai. 2 When they set out from Rephidim, they came to the wilderness of Sinai and camped in the wilderness; and there Israel camped in front of the mountain. 3 Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob and tell the sons of Israel: 4 'You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you to Myself. 5 ~'Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; 6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel."

Matthew 28:18-20
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Romans 1:1, 25-32
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin...... 25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will remove ungodliness from Jacob. 27 This is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins." 28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

1 Peter 2:4-10 ESV
4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ...... But you are a chosen race, a holy priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.


These passages speak of salvation in corporate, or "national" terms. We might reasonably say God does what He's promise one person at a time (individually) but given the passages above (and there are many others like them in scripture) we cannot say God is saving ONLY individuals. Nor should we construe God's salvation of the individual to be something occurring exclusive of God saving of "the nations," or from the very beginning having a plan to build a nation, a nation of priests (which, according to the 1 Peter 2 text, has already begun).

One other point (for now). In modernity we tend to think of the word "nation" in terms of geo-political nation-state status. We may also think of any mention of "the nation Israel" as something existing genetically, or via bloodline (that is the way the Jews thought about it). Ancient cultures were tribal, and a "nation" was a set of tribes connected via bloodline and/or marriage. Because inter-marriage was prohibited for the Jews, their "nation" was bloodline.

Neither is what God meant when it came to the covenant promise(s) that is Jesus. Jesus is the seed promised Abraham and one of the many things entailed in that promise was the making of many nations, later clarified (or added) was the nation of priests. In other words, nationality is a function of priestly ontology, or theological. That is what it means to be saved from sin. To be saved from sin and wrath is to be a royal priest, a member of God's holy - separate and sacred - nation.

 

[Aaron32]

I'm not sure how you are relating "only-ism" to the parable of the talents, or even what "only-ism" is. It's not a term I have used.

"Only-ism" is the term Josheb used because he's under the impression that you believe"obedience" is the 'only' thing that matters - leaving things out like 'loving God'

The parable of the talents has all the servants being judged according to what they did with their gifts--whether it be the "joy of thy lord"--or--"outer darkness", even though they were all servants to begin with.

What is there about that parable you disagree with?

Nothing. I'm just adding more context and desires and intent matter too.

2 Ne 26:31 But the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish.

Please explain how you are relating Mosiah 2:12 to the judgment of the servants found in Matthew 25, as not all the servants were judged as unprofitable servants in Matthew 25.

By remembering "[Jesus] the vine, [his servants] are the branches: He that abideth in [Him], and [He] in [them], the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without [Jesus] ye can do nothing."

Service goes beyond mere religiosity.

 

[Aaron32]

Let's start with a pair of Old Testament text and then a couple of texts from the New Testament.

Genesis 17:1-5
1 Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless. 2 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly." 3 Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying, 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.

Exodus 19:1-6
1 In the third month after the sons of Israel had gone out of the land of Egypt, on that very day they came into the wilderness of Sinai. 2 When they set out from Rephidim, they came to the wilderness of Sinai and camped in the wilderness; and there Israel camped in front of the mountain. 3 Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob and tell the sons of Israel: 4 'You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you to Myself. 5 ~'Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; 6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel."

Matthew 28:18-20
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Romans 1:1, 25-32
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin...... 25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will remove ungodliness from Jacob. 27 This is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins." 28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

1 Peter 2:4-10 ESV
4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ...... But you are a chosen race, a holy priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.


These passages speak of salvation in corporate, or "national" terms. We might reasonably say God does what He's promise one person at a time (individually) but given the passages above (and there are many others like them in scripture) we cannot say God is saving ONLY individuals. Nor should we construe God's salvation of the individual to be something occurring exclusive of God saving of "the nations," or from the very beginning having a plan to build a nation, a nation of priests (which, according to the 1 Peter 2 text, has already begun).

One other point (for now). In modernity we tend to think of the word "nation" in terms of geo-political nation-state status. We may also think of any mention of "the nation Israel" as something existing genetically, or via bloodline (that is the way the Jews thought about it). Ancient cultures were tribal, and a "nation" was a set of tribes connected via bloodline and/or marriage. Because inter-marriage was prohibited for the Jews, their "nation" was bloodline.

Neither is what God meant when it came to the covenant promise(s) that is Jesus. Jesus is the seed promised Abraham and one of the many things entailed in that promise was the making of many nations, later clarified (or added) was the nation of priests. In other words, nationality is a function of priestly ontology, or theological. That is what it means to be saved from sin. To be saved from sin and wrath is to be a royal priest, a member of God's holy - separate and sacred - nation.

Sounds right to me. This is the very reason for the restored Church.

In mormonism - The modern-day "nation of Israel" are those who not only join the church, entered into by baptism, and confirmed a member with the priesthood injunction to "receive the Holy Ghost" by the laying on of hands, and if faithful the individual is "sealed by the Holy of Promise". Not everyone has the faith to do this.

We receive laws and ordinances of the priesthood in our temples this fulfilling Isa. 2:1 "2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem."

In the context of the OP, those who have entered into priesthood covenants and the necessity of obedience is illustrated in the statement:
Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

So, while true: not all are believers, Mormons believe one can be quickened by the Spirit, but then turn back.
D&C 88:32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

Priesthood duty is a stewardship. For example, parents are responsible to teach their kids the gospel and standards. Those who neglect their priesthood duty will be held accountable.

Matt 5: 13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men

Hopefully this gives you a better understanding of dberrie's frame of mind.

 

[dberrie2020]

"Only-ism" is the term Josheb used because he's under the impression that you believe"obedience" is the 'only' thing that matters - leaving things out like 'loving God'

I'm not sure where Josheb gets his conclusions, but he has made a number of false claims about my beliefs--which I have asked him to give me a cite on. Crickets.

Why can't one believe loving God and obedience are integral to one another?

John 14:15---King James Version
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Nothing. I'm just adding more context and desires and intent matter too.

OK--but how does any of those "context and desires"-- alter the fact the servants were judged according to what they did with the talents--and that for "the joy of thy lord"--or--"outer darkness"?

What "intent and desires" are you referring to, as to the servants in Matthew25? What verse?

2 Ne 26:31 But the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish.

What are you relating that to?

By remembering "[Jesus] the vine, [his servants] are the branches: He that abideth in [Him], and [He] in [them], the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without [Jesus] ye can do nothing."

Service goes beyond mere religiosity.

How are you relating that to the servants with the talents in Matthew 25, or that they were judged according to what they did with the gifts? What connection are you claiming there?

 

[Josheb]

Cite, please. I have never argued any such point.

Can you now see the problem created by creating multiple threads?

 

[Josheb]

db has argued for the efficacy of works in salvation and done so in the context of his belief everyone has been washed clean from their sin by Christ's atonement.

Cite, please. I have never argued any such point.

In post #16 of this thread you wrote, "In His Atonement--all men are now born saved." That statement was followed by the question askinf if I was now saying all babies are born condemned, thereby implying you believe all babies are born saved. The opening post of this discussion states, "According to the Savior--one is judged according to what they do with the gifts." Therefore.....

Everyone is saved and will be judged based on their works.

In Post # 4 it reads, "Both Matthew 25 and John5:28-29 does serious damage to anyone who claims God's grace unto eternal life is a free gift," necessarily implying you believe eternal life is NOT a free gift. Therefore, what you've asserted is...

Everyone is born saved and will be judged on their works, or what they do with God's gifts, and eternal life is not a free gift.






And as I have told you many times now, you had plenty of opportunity to discuss this. If these were poorly-worded statements that needed clarification then plenty of opportunity was provided. I provided more thoroughly consistent alternatives so plenty of opportunity to discuss these things was provided. For you to now request, "Cite, please," is not only disingenuous, it occurs among the fact of repeated, blatant refusal to consider anything other than the fact you argued for the efficacy of works in salvation and did so in the context of the belief everyone is washed clean from their sin in Christ's atonement.

 

[CrowCross]

Sounds right to me. This is the very reason for the restored Church.

In mormonism - The modern-day "nation of Israel" are those who not only join the church, entered into by baptism, and confirmed a member with the priesthood injunction to "receive the Holy Ghost" by the laying on of hands, and if faithful the individual is "sealed by the Holy of Promise". Not everyone has the faith to do this.

We receive laws and ordinances of the priesthood in our temples this fulfilling Isa. 2:1 "2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem."

In the context of the OP, those who have entered into priesthood covenants and the necessity of obedience is illustrated in the statement:
Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

So, while true: not all are believers, Mormons believe one can be quickened by the Spirit, but then turn back.
D&C 88:32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

Priesthood duty is a stewardship. For example, parents are responsible to teach their kids the gospel and standards. Those who neglect their priesthood duty will be held accountable.

Matt 5: 13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men

Hopefully this gives you a better understanding of dberrie's frame of mind.

Are you saying only mormons are saved?

 

[CrowCross]

db has argued for the efficacy of works in salvation and done so in the context of his belief everyone has been washed clean from their sin by Christ's atonement.

In post #16 of this thread you wrote, "In His Atonement--all men are now born saved." That statement was followed by the question askinf if I was now saying all babies are born condemned, thereby implying you believe all babies are born saved. The opening post of this discussion states, "According to the Savior--one is judged according to what they do with the gifts." Therefore.....

Everyone is saved and will be judged based on their works.

In Post # 4 it reads, "Both Matthew 25 and John5:28-29 does serious damage to anyone who claims God's grace unto eternal life is a free gift," necessarily implying you believe eternal life is NOT a free gift. Therefore, what you've asserted is...

Everyone is born saved and will be judged on their works, or what they do with God's gifts, and eternal life is not a free gift.

One of the many problems with mormon doctrine...is that no one has assurance........I beg to differ.

 

[Josheb]

Cite, please. I have never argued any such point.

I attempted to edit my previous post but did not make it within the 30 minute limit.


This particular thread is an unnecessary off-shoot of a completely different and uncited thread in which it was argued, "Faith begets faithfulness, not the other way around. Grace is a gift, not a wage." In other words, aside from the hypocrisy of quoting someone without linking to the source for the quote and deliberately changing the topic and starting and entirely new thread, you've been actively arguing against the premise of faith first, actively arguing against faith begetting faithfulness, and actively arguing against grace is a gift. In Post # 4 it reads, "Both Matthew 25 and John5:28-29 does serious damage to anyone who claims God's grace unto eternal life is a free gift," necessarily implying you believe "grace unto eternal life" is NOT a free gift. Therefore, what you've asserted is...

Everyone is born saved and will be judged on their works, or what they do with God's gifts, and eternal life is not a free gift.

At first judgment was denied of all people and when I quoted various scriptures specifying everyone is judged for vain words/acts the response (in Post #4) was, "I don't deny that, but if it is a judgement between life and damnation--then the theology proffered here goes down to the deep," necessarily implying you understand that if that is a judgment for eternal life then your position "goes down to the deep." The very next sentence in that post is, "That in no way covers the naked claims of the critics here---that one is saved unto eternal life independent of works (acts of obedience to Jesus Christ)."

You have been arguing against those who argue salvation occurs independent of works, acts of obedience to Christ.

• Everyone is saved.
• Everyone will be judged based on their works.
• The judgment will be based on what folks do with the gifts God has given.
• The grace unto eternal life is not a gift; it is dependent works.

And as I have told you many times now, plenty of opportunity to discuss this was provided. If these were poorly-worded statements that needed clarification then plenty of opportunity was provided. I provided more thoroughly consistent alternatives so plenty of opportunity to discuss these things was provided. For you to now request, "Cite, please," is not only disingenuous, it occurs among the fact of repeated, blatant refusal to consider anything other than the fact you argued for the efficacy of works in salvation and did so in the context of the belief everyone is washed clean from their sin in Christ's atonement.


You don't get to discuss this anymore. Why not? Because I am being obedient to Christ.

Titus 3:9-11
But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.


And I hope that irony does not escape you. The next time we trade posts stay on topic, keep the posts about the posts, don't jump around from scripture to scripture to scripture ad nauseam without ever resolving any of them, don't change thread and quote others without citing/linking the source, and don't proof-text scripture or render one passage in neglect of all else the whole of scripture teaches..... because you'll be given three opportunities NOT to do those things and when you prove either unwilling or unable to discuss the topic(s) without that subterfuge I will do the exact same thing: point you to scripture and then move on... noting the hypocrisy of someone arguing for obedience while acting in chronic disobedience.

 

[Josheb]

I have additional scripture...

No, you do not. Neither the Doctrines and Covenants nor Mosiah are scripture.

I have additional scripture that doesn't "cancel out" Matt 25, but adds more context to get past the "only-ism":

D&C 137:
9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

You may also want to note, given the parable used in the OP, King Benjamin said we are ALL "unprofitable servants" (Mosiah 2:12)

Yes, and if the four or five threads in which an attempt was made to engage this problem of "onlyism" with the many diverse things scripture found in the Old and New Testaments says in addition to works, like the desires of the heart (which is deceitful above all else), then open and willful refusal to acknowledge these many, many, many other criteria, the open and willful disdain for whole-scripture was observed.

 

[Josheb]

So ultimately you're saying the "fallen man" will make different choices than one that's saved. And I'm guessing because those who are "saved" have regenerated hearts - and become new creations?

Yes, for the most part, but that is not the entirety of the matter because even in regeneration we remain "perishable," or "corruptible." We all act in some way shape or form that is disobedience even after having been brought to saving faith in Christ. No one is perfect on this side of the grave. It is only in resurrection that we are transformed, raised immortal and incorruptible, as Paul puts it in 1 Cor. 15..... and that "we" is only those who are the saints. All people are raised and all people are raised to judgment but some are raised to eternal life and others raised to eternal destruction. As one reaps so s/he sows is applicable to everyone, saved and unsaved, regenerate and unregenerate BUT for those in Christ there is now no condemnation. That aspect has changed, but it has changed only for a specified group, those saints who "walk according to the Spirit." The Spirit works in us. We do not work the Spirit.

So to your request in clarifying "free agency"...
In Mormonism....

Meh


I'm not doing that with you in this thread. If you'd like to debate some singular aspect of Mormonism (like the place of works in salvation, or the nature of the human will and its faculties once a person has sinned) with me then start a separate thread and pm me. I'm not going to contribute to a digression in another's thread, especially if the change amounts to hijacking. I will say this as you contemplate the matter: in the end we may disagree amicably but to the degree that I present an orthodox view of historical Christianity and the position of Mormonism (as you present it) is different then one of the things that will have been accomplished is to show Mormonism different than historical orthodox Christianity. Both cannot simultaneously be correct and true. Either 20 centuries of Christianity is wrong or it's Mormonism that is wrong. Of course, since Mormonism arose out of the 19th century restoration movement it is understandable that Mormonism would be different and have a different perspective on the Bible and what qualifies as scripture.

But it cannot be so different that it rejects historical orthodox Christianity because the moment Mormonism does that it destroys its own foundation. If historical orthodox Christianity is wrong then there is no basis for thinking or believing Jesus ever lived, much less the premise faith in him has anything to do with anything.

So.....

I think it best if we stick to the topic of this op and you endeavor to provide op-relevant commentary and inquiry couched solely in what we now call the Old and New Testaments and leave the use of the Book of Mormon to exchanges with your fellow Latter Day Saints.

 

[Aaron32]

Are you saying only mormons are saved?

Not necessarily.
The Terrestrial Kingdom is a degree of glory.
The will dwell in the presence of the Son, but not the glory of the Father.

 

[Josheb]

One of the many problems with mormon doctrine...is that no one has assurance........I beg to differ.

lol. You beg to differ no one has assurance, or no Mormon has assurance ? As I just got done informing our fellow poster, I'm not really interested in telling Mormons how horrible they are because they are Mormons, or how screwed up their doctrines are.

This thread and all the ones that are related to it began over a month ago. It's hard to know that because the author keep changing the topic and creating new threads. Someone dropping into any of the newer threads would have no understanding he and I were discussing a fairly singular topic; the place of obedience (or works) in the context of grace. I don't need to be Mormon to discuss that and I don't have to hold Latter Day Saints in contempt to do so. That I do think The Church of Latter Day Saints is an apostate and heretical cult (I have been forthcoming about that, and it is the official position of this forum) does not prevent me from op-relevant, topical discoursed based on the one book we share in common as authoritative; the Bible.


But....

..... if I understood the intent of your post correctly, then, yes, it is possible to know one is saved, is being saved, and will be saved. That can be understood with a sound exegetical reading of scripture and I have already covered some of that (like Romans 1:8 or 1 Cor. 3:11-15) in these discussions. And, yes, there was dissent over the plain reading of those texts when I posted them.

 

[dberrie2020]

I attempted to edit my previous post but did not make it within the 30 minute limit.

At least you are man enough to admit you can't back up your accusation--and neither are you going to back up your numerous false accusations you make in this post.

So--lets get the cites for the following:

you've been actively arguing against the premise of faith first,

Cite, please. I have never argued against any such thing.

and actively arguing against grace is a gift.

Cite, please. I have never argued against any such thing.

Everyone is saved.

Cite, please. I have never made any such claim as all inherit eternal life.

 

[CrowCross]

Not necessarily.
The Terrestrial Kingdom is a degree of glory.
The will dwell in the presence of the Son, but not the glory of the Father.

Not sure where you got all that from, but yes the disciples in Jesus' day were in the presence of the Lord and Savior, Gods eternal Son and not being basked in the glory of the Father nor the glory of the Son.....with the exception of those at the transfiguration...

But, we recognize this world....terrestrial kingdom...as you call it is dying....and christians are not of this world but rather citizens of heaven and simply passing through so to speak. Waiting for our death or the very close rapture of the church. When the resurrection/rapture happens Christin believers will then be with Christ Jesus and like Christ Jesus in glorified bodies.

As to what the mormons are expecting...I wouldn't put too much faith in it....as they will miss the resurrection/rapture and if living at that time they will find themselves in the tribulation.