The fake Christ and his followers

[Lilel01]

Without a doubt, Jesus said that there would be false Christs in our time.

He was not only referring to living people who would try to become teachers in his place, but he was also referring to an imaginary idea of him that would have nothing to do with reality.

The following biblical passage shows that there would be many followers of these false christs, and that in their own mind they would believe with complete certainty that they were serving Jesus. However, despite their honesty, their service to Jesus Christ was imaginary and therefore totally useless.

Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

If feeling honestly that one serves Jesus is not enough for it to be a relationship with the real Jesus Christ, how can one be sure that what is doing is not useless?

Before moving on to the development of the topic, I would like to highlight a key that Jesus mentions in the previous passage: "only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens" (v. 21).

John 6:44 No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him, and I will resurrect him on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by Jehovah.’ Everyone who has listened to the Father and has learned comes to me.

Jesus was quoting from here:

Is. 54:13 And all your sons will be taught by Jehovah,
And the peace of your sons will be abundant.

... confirming again that the one he calls "my Father and my God" is Jehovah. There is the most important point of all: if someone believes that is serving Jesus and has not the slightest idea of who is Jehovah, his Father, and what His will is, there is not the remotest possibility that Christ whoever he/she serves is the real one.

 

[Lilel01]

One of the typical absurdities of the fake christ:

"The Son is ETERNALLY begotten of The Father".

They don't even bother to come up with something understandable, so that it can at least be classified as credible.

 

[eternomade]

This is the actual definition of the antichrist:

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

Because JW/Watchtower are Arians, this definition seems fitting.

 

[OldShepherd]

In my lifetime there have been three people who have actually claimed to be Christ; Sun Myoung Mun, Jim Jones and David Koresh.

 

[Anthony]

This is the actual definition of the antichrist:

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

Because JW/Watchtower are Arians, this definition seems fitting.

Very true. He is taking any false Christ being taught these times but JW didn't exist for more than a century

 

[Lilel01]

I will tell you why the religious liders and theologians of Christendom out there hate Jehovahs witnesses: They do not tolerate us helping people to think.

I can think of some forum members here, with all that repeating and repeating and repeating the same pre-made posts everywhere, with so much bloody red to emphasize I don't know what exactly ... As if it were a kind of brainwashing to which their followers are accustomed, so that they cannot reason appropriately but just repeat what was recorded in their minds as if they were recorded CDs ... Mmmmh, no. That no longer works; maybe 20 years ago, when people did not know that in this world there are people who want to manipulate others with mind control techniques ...

It no longer works, because Jehovah's Witnesses have shown the world that matters of religion are not learned like litanies, but they are reasoned little by little until they are well understood. That are analyzed with relevant and pertinent biblical texts, deep questions are asked to understand ... That the Bible contains a truth that works as a whole, as if it were a GPS application in which you can Zoom-in and Zoom-out to be well located, and that no one tells you that you are on a street with the same name in another state, and not where you really are. As we have helped people to reason, well, no longer, it no longer works that they want to stuff people who honestly want to learn the truth with prefabricated theological sermons ...

And best of all, people do not need to pay to reason biblical truth, but just having a civilized, honest conversation on any biblical topic with someone else who really knows what they're talking about, who knows the Bible, and who doesn't come up with repetitions of the same bland sermons. That is why all who are honestly interested in the truth should soon approach a Jehovah's Witness, who is the one who can really help them reason the truth of the Bible, and not the religious fantasies that are swarming out there.

An example of those ready-made inventions that they intend to introduce into the minds of believers is the false Christ, who does not have a God, who does not serve God, who is equal to God in power and authority, who although he is Son never had a beginning, etc. They are ideas so contradictory to the teachings of Jesus Christ himself that they don't even want a Witness to show people the things that the real Jesus Christ said, and if we mention them, they try to make the least of it. Can you be a Christian by following a false Christ? That would make the person a pseudo-Christian, I think.

See the true Jesus Christ in his own words:

John 17:3 This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

Does the real Jesus have something to do with the fake one of the trinitarian theologians?

 

[OldShepherd]

I will tell you why the religious liders and theologians of Christendom out there hate Jehovahs witnesses: They do not tolerate us helping people to think.
I can think of some forum members here, with all that repeating and repeating and repeating the same pre-made posts everywhere, with so much bloody red to emphasize I don't know what exactly ... As if it were a kind of brainwashing to which their followers are accustomed, so that they cannot reason appropriately but just repeat what was recorded in their minds as if they were recorded CDs ... Mmmmh, no. That no longer works; maybe 20 years ago, when people did not know that in this world there are people who want to manipulate others with mind control techniques ...
It no longer works, because Jehovah's Witnesses have shown the world that matters of religion are not learned like litanies, but they are reasoned little by little until they are well understood. That are analyzed with relevant and pertinent biblical texts, deep questions are asked to understand ... That the Bible contains a truth that works as a whole, as if it were a GPS application in which you can Zoom-in and Zoom-out to be well located, and that no one tells you that you are on a street with the same name in another state, and not where you really are. As we have helped people to reason, well, no longer, it no longer works that they want to stuff people who honestly want to learn the truth with prefabricated theological sermons ...
And best of all, people do not need to pay to reason biblical truth, but just having a civilized, honest conversation on any biblical topic with someone else who really knows what they're talking about, who knows the Bible, and who doesn't come up with repetitions of the same bland sermons. That is why all who are honestly interested in the truth should soon approach a Jehovah's Witness, who is the one who can really help them reason the truth of the Bible, and not the religious fantasies that are swarming out there.
An example of those ready-made inventions that they intend to introduce into the minds of believers is the false Christ, who does not have a God, who does not serve God, who is equal to God in power and authority, who although he is Son never had a beginning, etc. They are ideas so contradictory to the teachings of Jesus Christ himself that they don't even want a Witness to show people the things that the real Jesus Christ said, and if we mention them, they try to make the least of it. Can you be a Christian by following a false Christ? That would make the person a pseudo-Christian, I think.
See the true Jesus Christ in his own words:
John 17:3 This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
Does the real Jesus have something to do with the fake one of the trinitarian theologians?

When JWs study the Bible do they read it for themselves or do they have by rote meetings where a leader reads a passage then asks questions and the group recites an answer out of a publication by the JW organization?
Do individual JWs own or ever use Hebrew/Greek grammars or lexicons? Or do they only read literature published by the JW organization?
Did any of the people who translated the NWT have any education in Hebrew and Greek?

 

[Lilel01]

When you memorized the doctrine of the Trinity, did you learn it from the Bible, or from the sermons of Trinitarian theologians?

 

[johnny guitar]

When you memorized the doctrine of the Trinity, did you learn it from the Bible, or from the sermons of Trinitarian theologians?

From The Bible of course, as The Church has done for 2,000 years.

 

[OldShepherd]

When you memorized the doctrine of the Trinity, did you learn it from the Bible, or from the sermons of Trinitarian theologians?

I'm not responding for JG but for Trinitarians, in general. I have been a Christian since LBJ was president and I have heard sermons in four countries and seven states and I can't recall ever hearing a sermon about, or which even mentioned, the Trinity. As a matter of fact I don't recall any lesson in seminary which included the Trinity. Perhaps you should try getting factual information before getting on a forum and embarrassing yourself.

 

[Lilel01]

When you memorized the doctrine of the Trinity, did you learn it from the Bible, or from the sermons of Trinitarian theologians?

I am more than sure that no one has ever learned that strange doctrine out of the Bible. In any case, after someone has put that idea in his mind, he will have tried to find some biblical support. No one has ever found the doctrine of the trinity in the Word of God; it is not there, it does not exist, NADA, NOTHING, NIENTE.

Try to be honest with yourself.

 

[shnarkle]

I will tell you why the religious liders and theologians of Christendom out there hate Jehovahs witnesses: They do not tolerate us helping people to think.

I've had a number of Jehovah's Witnesses inform me that what they're presenting is what they teach and believe. When I ask them to defend it, that is their defense. I have repeatedly used THEIR bible to refute their own teachings, only to be presented with deflection, obfuscation, and condescension.

I'm not a Trinitarian, yet to conflate Jesus with what the word was before the word became flesh displays an open disregard for critical thinking skills in favor of their precious doctrines; many of which they don't seem to have any wish to defend themselves other than to refer others to some page in one of their fliers, website, etc.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. In many ways, the JW's are right in line with the hopelessly incoherent and contradictory doctrines of all other Christian denominations.

 

[eternomade]

I've had a number of Jehovah's Witnesses inform me that what they're presenting is what they teach and believe. When I ask them to defend it, that is their defense. I have repeatedly used THEIR bible to refute their own teachings, only to be presented with deflection, obfuscation, and condescension.

I'm not a Trinitarian, yet to conflate Jesus with what the word was before the word became flesh displays an open disregard for critical thinking skills in favor of their precious doctrines; many of which they don't seem to have any wish to defend themselves other than to refer others to some page in one of their fliers, website, etc.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. In many ways, the JW's are right in line with the hopelessly incoherent and contradictory doctrines of all other Christian denominations.

Are you a "Biblical Unitarian" or is there something(denomination) that would help identify what you believe the Bible says?

 

[CrowCross]

It no longer works, because Jehovah's Witnesses have shown the world that matters of religion are not learned like litanies, but they are reasoned little by little until they are well understood.

The JW's are not a source to draw water from because they deny the divinity of Christ...and can't be trusted for accurate spiritual based discernment.

 

[Lilel01]

(...) what they're presenting is what they teach and believe. When I ask them to defend it, that is their defense. I have repeatedly used THEIR bible to refute their own teachings, only to be presented with deflection, obfuscation, and condescension. (...)

If you are surprised by that reaction in the two or three Witnesses with whom you may have conversed by chance, imagine how long we live that same if we are continually preaching on the street to people of any religion.

Do you really think that any person of any religion can speak of the Bible with more property than a Jehovah's Witness?

Rom. 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” 14 However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!”

 

[CrowCross]

I am more than sure that no one has ever learned that strange doctrine out of the Bible. In any case, after someone has put that idea in his mind, he will have tried to find some biblical support. No one has ever found the doctrine of the trinity in the Word of God; it is not there, it does not exist, NADA, NOTHING, NIENTE.

Try to be honest with yourself.

I have to borrow this from Civic

These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God. Remember it is Jesus in the NT who is Coming back to earth that every eye will see. It was Jesus who was pierced on the cross for our sins. John is clearly once again calling Jesus God!!!!!!! The Coming and the coming in the clouds never refers to the Father in the NT but always to Jesus.

Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

 

[Lilel01]

(...) not a source to draw water from because they deny the divinity of Christ...and can't be trusted for accurate spiritual based discernment.

It is impressive, the trinitarians conditioning all believers to accept their doctrine as true without even questioning it. Also, making people believe that whoever does not accept it cannot be a" Christian" or listened to what they say.

That is the way this religious empire works, and it is precisely from that control that Jehovah's Witnesses have been free for more than 100 years. It's another reason they hate us and enact that hatred so that everyone who follows them feels the same way as they do and continue with the cycle.

Although the truth is that a good part of Christendom out there IS NOT Trinitarian, we, Jehovah's Witnesses, are very special in independence and self-reliance. For example, talking about why our magazine Awake! is trustworthy, an ad on our official website says:

Awake! magazine is carefully researched. We attempt to document every fact, figure, and quotation. This journal is not influenced by activists, big business, or any human government. This magazine is supported by voluntary contributions. Its publishers believe that the Bible is the Word of God and that what the Bible says can be trusted.

Did you notice the details? We do not depend on the religious or political control that exists in this world over large organizations and institutions of all kinds, including religious ones. We do not depend on the money of donors who place conditions on their beneficiaries, nor are we under the control of the theologians of the world to accept what they call "being Christian" as if they have any right to decide what that really means. Our biblical knowledge does not depend on the religious conclusions of the theologians of these controlling institutions, nor does our production of biblical material depend on the authorization of some religious institution in the world.

Is it any wonder that they hate us?

John 15:17 “These things I command you, that you love one another. 18 If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. 20 Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have observed my word, they will also observe yours. 21 But they will do all these things against you on account of my name, because they do not know the One who sent me.

... 17:15 “I do not request that you take them out of the world, but that you watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. 17 Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth. 18 Just as you sent me into the world, I also sent them into the world. 19 And I am sanctifying myself in their behalf, so that they also may be sanctified by means of truth.

We know who is our God and who is our Leader. Any of you can join, at least right now:

Rev. 18:4 And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues."

 

[CrowCross]

It is impressive, the trinitarians conditioning all believers to accept their doctrine as true without even questioning it. Also, making people believe that whoever does not accept it cannot be a" Christian" or listened to what they say.

I've questioned the trinity...a lot. The bible clearly pointed out the truth behind it.
Believing in the trinity is not a requirement for salvation. Nor is believing Jesus is God....as many, probably most people become believers in Jesus prior to even hearing those truths. Those believers filled with the Holy Spirit can easily understand those truths. If you after hearing those truths....Jesus is God...and reject those truths, you probably are not saved. There is no reason to listen to what the JW's have to say...if they got the truth of who Jesus is wrong, then how much more did they get wrong?

That is the way this religious empire works, and it is precisely from that control that Jehovah's Witnesses have been free for more than 100 years. It's another reason they hate us and enact that hatred so that everyone who follows them feels the same way as they do and continue with the cycle.

Although the truth is that a good part of Christendom out there IS NOT Trinitarian, we, Jehovah's Witnesses, are very special in independence and self-reliance. For example, talking about why our magazine Awake! is trustworthy, an ad on our official website says:


Did you notice the details? We do not depend on the religious or political control that exists in this world over large organizations and institutions of all kinds, including religious ones. We do not depend on the money of donors who place conditions on their beneficiaries, nor are we under the control of the theologians of the world to accept what they call "being Christian" as if they have any right to decide what that really means. Our biblical knowledge does not depend on the religious conclusions of the theologians of these controlling institutions, nor does our production of biblical material depend on the authorization of some religious institution in the world.

The JW's have become a controlling religious enitity of their own. You for one are being controlled.

Is it any wonder that they hate us?

John 15:17 “These things I command you, that you love one another. 18 If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. 20 Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have observed my word, they will also observe yours. 21 But they will do all these things against you on account of my name, because they do not know the One who sent me.

... 17:15 “I do not request that you take them out of the world, but that you watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. 17 Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth. 18 Just as you sent me into the world, I also sent them into the world. 19 And I am sanctifying myself in their behalf, so that they also may be sanctified by means of truth.

We know who is our God and who is our Leader. Any of you can join, at least right now:

Rev. 18:4 And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues."

 

[Lilel01]

(...) The JW's have become a controlling religious enitity of their own. You for one are being controlled.

If what you mean is that we are an ORGANIZATION with our own Governing Body ... of course we are, just exactly as the Christian community was in the First Century (Acts 15).

... If you mean that I am obedient to the ones who are taking the lead among us, of course I am.

Heb. 13:17 Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among YOU and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over YOUR souls as those who will render an account; that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to YOU.

Perhaps that is why the people of the world like Christendom out there so much; Most of them don't like to obey anyone, and in that religious world everyone does and believes whatever they want; all believe they are theologians and enlightened.

But Scripture teaches something different regarding the functioning of the true people of God:

1 Cor. 12:29 Not all are apostles, are they? Not all are prophets, are they? Not all are teachers, are they? Not all perform powerful works, do they?

This is how we work, and that is why we are blessed.

 

[shnarkle]

Are you a "Biblical Unitarian" or is there something(denomination) that would help identify what you believe the Bible says?

I'm not affiliated with any denominations. My primary approach to the bible is through paying careful attention to the hundreds of figures of speech used in thousands of different ways. Being able to identify the exact figure of speech goes a long way to uncovering the most accurate intent of the authors.