The False Doctrine of "Hell"

[Bob Dobbalina]

Hey Bob,

How does AION have a plural if its an eternity [Ephesians 2:7]

You have to be so dedicated to the traditions of men that you end up with Biblical dyslexia. So many leave logic and reason on the altar to orthodoxy.

Why do we constantly hear about the end of the age [Matthew 13:39-40][13:49][24:3][28:20][I Corinthians 10:11][Hebrews 9:26].

Read all those passages and use the word eternity instead of age. Does this make any sense to you?

No, there's no sense to be made of it. I prefer not to look too deeply into the void, it's counter-productive.
YHWH decides the right time to open a person's eyes. I do get a little exasperated with those who consign me to hellfire because I don't agree with their eschatology. Those with whom I disagree on this plane, I look forward to commiserating with them when we're both learning at the feet of Messiah.

Of all that Yeshua inveighed against, He was most vehement in His condemnation of those who value the traditions of men over the Word of YHWH.
Col. 2:8 See that no one shall be carrying you away as spoil through the philosophy and vain deceit, according to the deliverance of men, according to the rudiments of the world, and not according to Christ,

Matthew 15:3 And he answering said to them, ‘Wherefore also do ye transgress the command of God because of your tradition?

Matthew 15:6 and he may not honour his father or his mother, and ye did set aside the command of God because of your tradition.

 

[Rachel Redux]

IF you care:

I care very much.
Now could you highlight the words that say we'll be tormented and burned for eternity?

Daniel 12:2 `And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during.

2 Many of those whose bodies lie dead and buried will rise up, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting disgrace.

Mat 19:29

29 and every one who left houses, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or fields, for my name's sake, an hundredfold shall receive, and life age-during shall inherit;

Mat 25:41

41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

Mat 25:46

46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Lk 16:9

9 and I say to you, Make to yourselves friends out of the mammon of unrighteousness, that when ye may fail, they may receive you to the age-during tabernacles.

2 Thess 1:9

9 who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

 

[Hawkeye]

IF you care:
Dan 12:2
Mat 19:29
Mat 25:41
Mat 25:46
Lk 16:9
2 Thess 1:9

Hi Banjo. Glad to see you on board here.

[Daniel 12:2] ‘And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches — to abhorrence age-during.

[Matthew 19:29] and every one who left houses, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or fields, for my name’s sake, an hundredfold shall receive, and life age-during shall inherit;

[Matthew 25:41] Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

[Matthew 25:46] And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during

[Luke 16:9] and I say to you, Make to yourselves friends out of the mammon of unrighteousness, that when ye may fail, they may receive you to the age-during tabernacles.

[II Thessalonians 1:9] who shall suffer justice — destruction age-during — from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

Those passages are from "Young's Literal Translation".

Robert Young was a 19th century Hebrew/Greek scholar who decided to construct a strict, literal translation of the scriptures. Reading through his publication is sometimes difficult because he adamantly chose to strictly use the Hebrew/Greek verbiage. He was a Scottish Free Church (Presbyterian) member and its rumored that he lost some longtime friendships because of his insistence not to stray from the literal.

As you can see.....he translates the word AION as belonging to an "Age" and not of anything eternal. This idea of the word AION meaning eternity all began with Catholic superstition and the medieval Protestants seemed to like the idea so they continued this translation error into the King James. Most English bibles published since then will translate that way also because if they don't..... they then cannot make the case for eternal Hell Fire and damnation.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Hi Banjo. Glad to see you on board here.

[Daniel 12:2] ‘And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches — to abhorrence age-during.

[Matthew 19:29] and every one who left houses, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or fields, for my name’s sake, an hundredfold shall receive, and life age-during shall inherit;

[Matthew 25:41] Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

[Matthew 25:46] And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during

[Luke 16:9] and I say to you, Make to yourselves friends out of the mammon of unrighteousness, that when ye may fail, they may receive you to the age-during tabernacles.

[II Thessalonians 1:9] who shall suffer justice — destruction age-during — from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

Those passages are from "Young's Literal Translation".

Robert Young was a 19th century Hebrew/Greek scholar who decided to construct a strict, literal translation of the scriptures. Reading through his publication is sometimes difficult because he adamantly chose to strictly use the Hebrew/Greek verbiage. He was a Scottish Free Church (Presbyterian) member and its rumored that he lost some longtime friendships because of his insistence not to stray from the literal.

As you can see.....he translates the word AION as belonging to an "Age" and not of anything eternal. This idea of the word AION meaning eternity all began with Catholic superstition and the medieval Protestants seemed to like the idea so they continued this translation error into the King James. Most English bibles published since then will translate that way also because if they don't..... they then cannot make the case for eternal Hell Fire and damnation.

(chuckle) of course that's a "two edged sword" which can also eliminate Eternal life for Born again Christians.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I care very much.
Now could you highlight the words that say we'll be tormented and burned for eternity?

2 Many of those whose bodies lie dead and buried will rise up, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting disgrace.

29 and every one who left houses, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or fields, for my name's sake, an hundredfold shall receive, and life age-during shall inherit;

41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;


46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'


9 and I say to you, Make to yourselves friends out of the mammon of unrighteousness, that when ye may fail, they may receive you to the age-during tabernacles.


9 who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

If it's not already OBVIOUS, then nothing I can say will make any difference to you.

 

[Rachel Redux]

If it's not already OBVIOUS, then nothing I can say will make any difference to you.

It isn't obvious to me, Bob. This is the only scripture I've ever found that clearly talks about eternal punishment:

Rev 14:
9 ¶ And the third Angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, [h]If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or on his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, yea, of the pure wine, which is poured into the cup of his wrath, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy Angels, and before the Lamb.

11 And the smoke of their torment shall ascend evermore: and they shall have no rest day nor night, which worship the beast and his name.

12 [i]Here is the patience of Saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

It isn't obvious to me, Bob. This is the only scripture I've ever found that clearly talks about eternal punishment:

Rev 14:
9 ¶ And the third Angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, [h]If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or on his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, yea, of the pure wine, which is poured into the cup of his wrath, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy Angels, and before the Lamb.

11 And the smoke of their torment shall ascend evermore: and they shall have no rest day nor night, which worship the beast and his name.

12 [i]Here is the patience of Saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

That's a good one among many. All the cites I gave indicate everlasting punishment, and several of them also mention everlasting LIFE

Annihilationism is the DESPERATE HOPE of those who have no FAITH in their salvation.

 

[Hawkeye]

It isn't obvious to me, Bob. This is the only scripture I've ever found that clearly talks about eternal punishment:

Hi Rachel. Here's how Young's describes that:

[Revelation 14:9-12] And a third messenger did follow them, saying in a great voice, ‘If any one the beast doth bow before, and his image, and doth receive a mark upon his forehead, or upon his hand, he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb, and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name. Here is endurance of the saints: here [are] those keeping the commands of God, and the faith of Jesus.]

Using Young's Translation I cannot find any instance of anyone entering into eternity. After the Kingdom of Yahweh is established that will be the case, but this will follow the Millennium and the Judgement which are both "Ages" in themselves. Folks will definitely be alive throughout the Millennium as they were during the Adamic Age where they lived to a considerably old age......but they were not immortal....they just lived a very long time.

I believe Revelation 21 & 22 describe the time when men will step into immortality after entering the Kingdom of Yahweh. Until then.....some will live through the MIllennium and the Age of Judgement...but they will still be mortal. Bear in mind the word AION had to be changed to also mean eternity to satisfy the bloodthirsty requirements of the Catholic Church and their superstitions. During the "Dark Ages" this kept the folks in line....and the collection plates full.....but it wasn't (still isn't) scriptural.

In the classics (Philo, Herodotus, Diogenes, Plutarch)....none of these classical Greek writers ever chose the word AION or its adjective AIONION to describe something permanent.

 

[Bob Dobbalina]

That's a good one among many. All the cites I gave indicate everlasting punishment, and several of them also mention everlasting LIFE

Annihilationism is the DESPERATE HOPE of those who have no FAITH in their salvation.

Can you help me understand how you know better than so many linguists and Biblical experts? Robert Young's literal translation is recognized by scholars as a valuable resource in Christian studies, yet you know better. How does that work? Sincere question, maybe there's something I don't know; there's certainly a lot I don't understand and maybe you could help me.

What's in it for you? Why do so many people want, need even, to believe that "those people" are gonna burn in hell? My biggest stumbling block, that which kept me from embracing Yeshua as Messiah was my fervent belief that Christianity meant worshipping a vicious god who spit-roasted babies for eternity if their parents didn't get them sprinkled pre-mortem. I was relieved to find out that the baby-roasting contingent is few but any is too many, doncha think? Anyway, I digress.

Why is the doctrine of eternal torment so important to you? You seem quite confident of your own salvation, and who would advocate such a blood-thirsty doctrine if they believed they may run afoul of it, so why? With the linguistic "proof" being challenged and debunked daily, you and many others double down- why?

As I wrote to others earlier, I believe CARM is for the lurkers. It's a pretty good microcosm of the Christian zeitgeist, as I experience it anyway.
I visited CARM many times before posting anything. I learned a lot that way and am sure many others do also.

Annihilationism is a long word meant to suggest that a common-sense reading of scripture is rather a heretical doctrine to be avoided lest you burn in a fiery pit with immortal, fire-proof worms forever and ever. Something like that anyway.

In conclusion, I'm left to wonder if your faith is in your salvation or in the work of millennia-old linguists and long-debunked cultural hoodoo.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Can you help me understand how you know better than so many linguists and Biblical experts? Robert Young's literal translation is recognized by scholars as a valuable resource in Christian studies, yet you know better. How does that work? Sincere question, maybe there's something I don't know; there's certainly a lot I don't understand and maybe you could help me.

SO you base your understanding on the Non-specific wording according to Young (kind of like the Hebrey YOWM which can mean "Day", or "millenium").

What's in it for you? Why do so many people want, need even, to believe that "those people" are gonna burn in hell? My biggest stumbling block, that which kept me from embracing Yeshua as Messiah was my fervent belief that Christianity meant worshipping a vicious god who spit-roasted babies for eternity if their parents didn't get them sprinkled pre-mortem. I was relieved to find out that the baby-roasting contingent is few but any is too many, doncha think? Anyway, I digress.

Psst the "Baby roasters are the Catholics" with their phony "Paedobaptism" foolishness. When my FIrstborn daughter died (came too early - hyaline membrane), neither my wife or I had a second thought about "Doing something religious" - we just bought the styrofoam box the Babies are planted in, Sent it to the cemetery, and left the rest of it to them. In the not too distant future, I'll meed "Angeline" as she is after 50 years waiting for us. It's a mistake to mix "Christianity" with Catholicism" (although there are Christian Catholics IN SPITE of their Church).

Why is the doctrine of eternal torment so important to you?

It's not a "Doctrine" - it's simply what the Bible says. Take it or leave it. I have no choice but to accept what the Word says.

You seem quite confident of your own salvation,

It's Called FAITH Heb 11:1, Rom 10:17, Mark 11:21-24. YOU have to hold onto, and defend your BELIEFS, but FAITH holds on to YOU.

Annihilationism is a long word meant to suggest that a common-sense reading of scripture is rather a heretical doctrine to be avoided lest you burn in a fiery pit with immortal, fire-proof worms forever and ever. Something like that anyway.

Simpler than that, y'all. It just means that when you croak, you just CEASE like a snuffed candle flame. SInce ETERNITY is a threatening concept, NO ETERNITY is easier for humans to cope with.

In conclusion, I'm left to wonder if your faith is in your salvation or in the work of millennia-old linguists and long-debunked cultural hoodoo.

Since you seem not to have any idea what Biblical FAITH is, my FAITH'S FOUNDATION is in the WORD OF GOD TO ME in Conviction of SIN, which, when I surrendered to HIM in repentance, and called to HIM to cleanse my Sin through Jesus' SIN offering on the cross for ME (Isa 53), He did, everything changed. I was NEW, Clean, and no longer hopeless or suicidal. 57 years later I'm STILL perfect in the sight of God by FAITH, and impending physical death (I'm 78, and not in great health) holds no fear. The Holy Spirit isn't "Millennia old" only, He's right here NOW.

 

[Hawkeye]

It's a mistake to mix "Christianity" with Catholicism" (although there are Christian Catholics IN SPITE of their Church).

Hi Banjo,

Yes there are....many. It's unfortunate that they worship as they do.....mainly in ignorance. But indeed.....many good folks among them.

 

[Rachel Redux]

Hi Rachel. Here's how Young's describes that:

[Revelation 14:9-12] And a third messenger did follow them, saying in a great voice, ‘If any one the beast doth bow before, and his image, and doth receive a mark upon his forehead, or upon his hand, he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb, and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name. Here is endurance of the saints: here [are] those keeping the commands of God, and the faith of Jesus.]

Using Young's Translation I cannot find any instance of anyone entering into eternity. After the Kingdom of Yahweh is established that will be the case, but this will follow the Millennium and the Judgement which are both "Ages" in themselves. Folks will definitely be alive throughout the Millennium as they were during the Adamic Age where they lived to a considerably old age......but they were not immortal....they just lived a very long time.

I believe Revelation 21 & 22 describe the time when men will step into immortality after entering the Kingdom of Yahweh. Until then.....some will live through the MIllennium and the Age of Judgement...but they will still be mortal. Bear in mind the word AION had to be changed to also mean eternity to satisfy the bloodthirsty requirements of the Catholic Church and their superstitions. During the "Dark Ages" this kept the folks in line....and the collection plates full.....but it wasn't (still isn't) scriptural.

In the classics (Philo, Herodotus, Diogenes, Plutarch)....none of these classical Greek writers ever chose the word AION or its adjective AIONION to describe something permanent.

You might be right, Hawkeye. I've never heard refer to the Judgement Age. Not sure what I think about it yet.

 

[Bob Dobbalina]

I get frustrated because I take debate seriously and I wonder why anyone wouldn't but so many don't so here we are.
Nobody gets everything right but this tradition, that GOD is a merciless tormentor of those who disagree with Him, is particularly odious, imho.

 

[Buzzard]

..;.;

For the lurkers:
Note that there is nothing in this collection of words that addresses my questions.
Mr Carabbio does what many do on CARM- ignore the people and evidence and, most surprisingly, the scriptures themselves and just declare themselves correct because... of course they are ... because you're stupid, that's why. It really is that childish sometimes because there's nothing that addresses real questions, just blah blah blah. Why bother Bob?

There should be a special place in purgatory for people who only pretend to rational discourse and debate.
I'm through with you too, Carrabio. You may have the last word.

There is, but it's not Purgatory; but then again it is

Matt.12:36
But I say unto you,
That every idle word that men shall speak,
they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

that includes words posted here

Matt.5:22
But I say unto you,
That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:
and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council:
but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

as Solomon says
Proverbs 21:9
It is better to dwell in a corner of the housetop,
than with a brawling woman in a wide house.

Is.30:20
And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity,
and the water of affliction,
yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more,
but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:

21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee,
saying,
This is the way, walk ye in it,
when ye turn to the right hand,
and when ye turn to the left.

 

[Bob Dobbalina]

..;.;

There is, but it's not Purgatory; but then again it is

Matt.12:36
But I say unto you,
That every idle word that men shall speak,
they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

that includes words posted here

Matt.5:22
But I say unto you,
That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:
and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council:
but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

as Solomon says
Proverbs 21:9
It is better to dwell in a corner of the housetop,
than with a brawling woman in a wide house.

Is.30:20
And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity,
and the water of affliction,
yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more,
but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:

21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee,
saying,
This is the way, walk ye in it,
when ye turn to the right hand,
and when ye turn to the left.

Purgatory is another fig newton of man's imagination, as my dad would say. Your actual message is valid, nonetheless.

 

[Bob Dobbalina]

Am I wrong? Help me out here sister. You seem rational, illuminate my error, please.

I waited too long to edit this away, Miss Rachel. Please disregard.

 

[Rachel Redux]

I waited too long to edit this away, Miss Rachel. Please disregard.

It just seemed too strong a thing to say, Bob. It kind of took me aback.

 

[Bob Dobbalina]

It just seemed too strong a thing to say, Bob. It kind of took me aback.

I stand by the original text but apologize for any attempt to draw you into it.
Peace be upon you, your home and all within.

 

[Bob Dobbalina]

I don't think you'll get an answer to that one.

We're told that all men will die once [Hebrews 9:27] but that the Lake of Fire is the second death [Revelation 20:14]...... but many well meaning Christians still believe that the evil will live forever in a fiery Hell which has absolutely no Biblical confirmation whatsoever. What they're trying to tell us (I guess) is that there is also a resurrection from the second death. Instead of walking.....maybe they'll swim out of the Lake of Fire.

Go figure.............

Then....when their theology is exposed they try and change the meaning of the Greek.

You cannot suffer if your dead...... and put out of your misery.

There is no answer, just circular reasoning- I believe it because it's true, it's true because I believe it. Truly sound logic.

 

[Hawkeye]

what do you understand by rev 20:14?

Young's Literal Translation: [Revelation 20:14] and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire — this [is] the second death;

We all know what death means but some do not really understand the term Hades. If you go to any Greek/English dictionary you will see that Hades translates to the "Grave, Sepulcher, Tomb".

Many superstitious early Catholics referred to this (Hades) as the "Underworld". Well....it was under the ground..... which some call the world, but it wasn't until the 14th century that it was identified with "Fire".

Dante Alighieri was an Italian poet and he wrote "The Divine Comedy" which was an imaginary vision of the afterlife. In it he included many non scriptural events (Fire) to take place which because of the immense popularity of his work became part of the accepted idea of the imaginary "Hell". It was quickly picked as fact by the "Dark Age" populace.

Remember.....during these times the only literacy to be found was among the Royalty and the Clergy. Folks just believed what they were told.

Entertain yourself. Look for the "Divine Comedy" on your computer to learn where many of these fairy tales came from.

[Revelation 20:14] describes the end of the Judgement Age when all death and the concept of burial are thrown into the Lake of Fire to never afflict mankind again.