The False Doctrine of "Hell"

[Bob Carabbio]

OK, the "non-curse" placed upon Adam is that he dies and returns to the dust.

Assuming that Adam's imaginary "immortal soul" and other non-Adam things live on, what consequence is it to Adam?

Adam, who is the dust, has returned to the dust from whence he came, and there he remains. Just like David (Acts 2:34).

You're getting more RIDICULOUS the longer you flail around. It's the same "Consequence to ADAM" as YOUR immortal soul is to you, silly. And the ONLY THING that's really important is that you, under Conviction of your SIN, and of impending judgement, surrender, REPENT, and call on God in the FAITH He gifts to you, to apply the SIN OFFERING of Jesus to your SIN, and cleanse you from it, so that your name is in His book of life. The alternative is an eternity in the Lake of fire with some REALLY LOUSY neighbors.

 

[brotherofJared]

The Lake of Fire spoken of in Johns Revelation is as Christ saith
"As it was in the Days of Noah
when he broke up the fountains of the deep and also rained 40 days and nights

You got to know that there was no lake of fire back in days of Noah, right?

 

[brotherofJared]

Sodom is another example

This Lake of Fire;
well you are standing on it
about 30 miles down, we call it Lava;
He reminds us ever so often when these Volcanoes go BOOM
when he breaks up the fountains of the deep again
this earth will become a literal lake of fire;
and all the works of man will be burned up;

No. Sodom and Gomorrah wore us a place of destruction and the people died. The people that are supposedly going to be in hell can never die

 

[brotherofJared]

It was a probably a hypothetical to show the absolute absurdity of a place where Yahweh will torture people forever. Can you point out the post to me?

Sorry. I misspoke. It wasn't your original post. I was referring to the opening post of this thread. The way I understood it was did it exist or not. But here you are taking a leap from does it exist to is it a lake of fire and brimstone. The way I understand it the lake of fire and brimstone is a metaphor for its torment. The question it's still open as to whether hell actually exists or not. Is it a place? And my offering is that it is not a place but it is the lack of a place but it is different than heaven and that heaven is a place.

 

[Buzzard]

stephen asks
Wow, so you believe that heaven and earth will both become "hell". May I suggest that you might want to interpret "heaven" and "earth" as Isaiah does in Isaiah 1:1-11 as it makes more sense and describes the end of the Judean commonwealth.

nope;
this earth will get purified by fire, and all the wicked will be burned up also
right along with Satan and his angels;

Proverbs 9:17
Stolen waters are sweet, and bread eaten in secret is pleasant.
18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there;
and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

Isaiah 28:15
Because ye have said,
We have made a covenant with death,
and with hell are we at agreement;
when the overflowing scourge shall pass through,
it shall not come unto us:
for we have made lies our refuge,
and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Revelation 6:7
And when he had opened the fourth seal,
I heard the voice of the fourth beast say,
Come and see.

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse:
and his name that sat on him was Death,
and Hell followed with him.

so who are these Two powers / entities / beings
refered to as Hell and Death

 

[Stephen]

You're getting more RIDICULOUS the longer you flail around. It's the same "Consequence to ADAM" as YOUR immortal soul is to you, silly.

Ok, so there is zero consequence to Adam. He dies, I die. Adam was the dust, he returned to the dust. Likewise for me and for you.

In Genesis 3, Adam's "immortal soul" has about the same relevance as Adam's ipad. Neither are mentioned.

And the ONLY THING that's really important is that you, under Conviction of your SIN, and of impending judgement, surrender, REPENT, and call on God in the FAITH He gifts to you, to apply the SIN OFFERING of Jesus to your SIN, and cleanse you from it, so that your name is in His book of life.

As I read your post, these are thing that I do, for me and they are very important. My "immortal soul" isn't part of this equation.

The alternative is an eternity in the Lake of fire with some REALLY LOUSY neighbors.

If either you or myself was tossed into the lake of fire, we would quickly become ash and that would be the end. Eternity would be irrelevant as there is no coming back from the second death. Further, the neighborhood would be irrelevant as they have met their end also.

Whatever this "immortal soul" thingy is, it is irrelevant to this part of the process. As it is "immortal", I doubt the "lake of fire" has any effect on it.

 

[Bob Dobbalina]

Many non-Christians will renounce Christianity after asking....."How can a all-powerful and loving God allow folks to be burned alive for all time?" It's an honest question which deserves an honest answer.

Yeah, how anyone worships a god less merciful than any person I've ever met is beyond my understanding.
Death is clearly defined in the scriptures but most of the scholars that comment on these boards know infinitely better than the author of Ecclesiastes.

 

[Stephen]

stephen asks
Wow, so you believe that heaven and earth will both become "hell". May I suggest that you might want to interpret "heaven" and "earth" as Isaiah does in Isaiah 1:1-11 as it makes more sense and describes the end of the Judean commonwealth.

nope;
this earth will get purified by fire, and all the wicked will be burned up also
right along with Satan and his angels;

I see. Even though Peter says "by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire," you think only the earth gets this fire.

We will have to agree to disagree on your interpretation. Peter says whatever happens to the earth also happens to heaven. Whatever interpretation and doctrine you take from the passage needs to reconcile that fact.

Proverbs 9:17
Stolen waters are sweet, and bread eaten in secret is pleasant.
18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there;
and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

If only there was this thing called a dictionary where we could learn about the Hebrew word "hell" in this context (i.e. "the grave")

Isaiah 28:15
Because ye have said,
We have made a covenant with death,
and with hell are we at agreement;
when the overflowing scourge shall pass through,
it shall not come unto us:
for we have made lies our refuge,
and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

This is of course a symbolic prophecy, as God didn't literally lay down a literal shaped rock in Zion in the next verse.

My understanding of that prophetic vision is when Hezekiah tried to buy off Assyria in 2 Kings 18:15 and Assyria repaid the bribe by conquering all of Judah and surrounding Jerusalem. They made their covenant with death (Assyria), now God's got to bail them out.

Revelation 6:7
And when he had opened the fourth seal,
I heard the voice of the fourth beast say,
Come and see.

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse:
and his name that sat on him was Death,
and Hell followed with him.

so who are these Two powers / entities / beings
refered to as Hell and Death

Again, we have a symbolic prophecy (as it states in Rev 1:1).

It looks like a bad scene, as the pale horse signifies disease and illness. The two entities identified by "death" and "hell" that bring about the things identified in the prophecy: war, famine, plague, and rampaging beasts (i.e. nations, see Daniel's visions). If you want names, we can bandy some about if you wish. These are things that the supposedly literal "hell" does and why does the literal "death" bring all of those things, "death" is a result of those things.

 

[Gary Mac]

Heaven is a real place and it's physical existence is taught in in Genesis 1:1, just like everything else in Genesis 1.

Actually the kingdom of God doesnt come with observation, it is withn you. As I said not many believe Jesus do they?

Hell is completely absent.

Heaven and hell is Gods creation. He created the light He created the dark, He created the good He created the evil, I the Lord diod all these things. Is 45:7.
Hell is only absent if you do not know what heaven or hell is.

Jesus ascended up to heaven. He will return from the same. He didn't change disposition, he changed location.

He already did that.

This is simply made up.

Are you sugesting Jesus made this up that the kingdom of God doesnt come with observation but is withn you, he lied?

"Hell" is absent of all of these things largely because it is absent from the scriptures.

Hell is one state of being who do not have the righteousness of God as your own disposition. The kingdom of God, heaven and hell, is withn you and you live in one or the other.

The last thing Jesus taught while on this earth before being physically taken to the physical heaven was regarding the literal kingdom:

Acts 1:1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.​

Yes and the literal kingdom of God is withn you, or is suposed to be in you, not many believe Jesus in that though do they?

And further, those that walked with him for all those years interpreted it as a real and literal kingdom on earth that replaced the kingdom of God had previously existed in Israel under David and Solomon who ruled from YHWH's throne:

6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”​

Yes they literally recieved the kingdom of God in acts 2. Jesus recieved it in Matt 3:16. Gods kingdom restored in all of these by His SPirit, this is how He does it by His Spirit. You cant know that what you dont have of His kingdom can you?

 

[Gary Mac]

So, physical beings will not live in a physical place. Interesting. I have to wonder what distinguishes heaven from hell?

From what you just said, they are both in the same place... which is no place. But no place is the same place, is it not?

Love distinguishes heaven the absence of Love establishes hell. It is the disposition of the beholder of. Either you are of one or the other. Do you walk as He walks in His same light and perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect which Love is the only perfect thing on this planet and cannot change for God is Love. Everyome knows very well if they are of God to be like Him and in His same image, which simply is Love. Hily Love or Holy SPirit as the bible calls it. Losvr is the Spirit of God and either one has His SPirit or they dont. .

 

[Rachel Redux]

You're getting more RIDICULOUS the longer you flail around. It's the same "Consequence to ADAM" as YOUR immortal soul is to you, silly. And the ONLY THING that's really important is that you, under Conviction of your SIN, and of impending judgement, surrender, REPENT, and call on God in the FAITH He gifts to you, to apply the SIN OFFERING of Jesus to your SIN, and cleanse you from it, so that your name is in His book of life. The alternative is an eternity in the Lake of fire with some REALLY LOUSY neighbors.

Could you show that "alternative" part with scripture?
The only time scripture mentions eternal burning is when it talks about Satan and his demons' smoke going up forever. It says unrepentant sinners will be burned up in that fire.

Btw....I believe in a real hell where there will be gnashing of teeth but I do NOT believe in eternal torment. God says sinners will be destroyed.

 

[Gary Mac]

Could you show that "alternative" part with scripture?
The only time scripture mentions eternal burning is when it talks about Satan and his demons' smoke going up forever. It says unrepentant sinners will be burned up in that fire.

Btw....I believe in a real hell where there will be gnashing of teeth but I do NOT believe in eternal torment. God says sinners will be destroyed.

When Gods comes to person by His Spirit He cleanses us from all unrighteousness. We go through His fire (described as a lake of fire) where sin and all the impurities that mans established laws to govern their beliefs are burned up and we come out cleansed from them, pure, holy, righteous, and without sin.

People cant relate to that fire until they go through it. It is a spiritual place not a physical place. See Jesus in Luke 17:20-21, it doesnt come with observation, it is withn you. People read Jesus and still deny him looking for a physical heaven or hell or a physical god to come.

Jesus described this cleansing as born again.

 

[Stephen]

Actually the kingdom of God doesnt come with observation, it is withn you. As I said not many believe Jesus do they?

Not many people believe your spin of this this singular verse out of its' context, of sketchy translation, given to people who couldn't see and couldn't hear (the Pharisees). Nor should they.

Luke 17:20-21 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”​

When Jesus explains what he was talking about to his disciples just a few verses later, he says why you can't observe it coming because it will come suddenly. Jesus did not describe the lack of observation as some esoteric thing. He described it as sudden, upon you before you saw it. It would be real, powerful, and after it arrived, it would be known to all as he explains in the next verses:

22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.​

​

26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.​

​

28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.​

​

Note how Jesus describes his coming:

• Like Lightning that stretches across the sky. It's coming cannot be observed.
• Like Noah's flood, it's coming wasn't observed until it was upon them.
• Like Sodom, they had no warning, destruction suddenly rained down from heaven.

And the only time "heaven" is mentioned in the passage, it is described as a physical place, not a state of being.




But wait, there's more, on the day he is revealed, real, physical location changes occur, not some esoteric change in disposition:

30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”​

And the apostles make it clear that they understand physical locations are involved with their question, and Jesus confirms that real physical locations are involved by answering them:

37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.​

​

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”​

Let the reader understand where the dead body was, and where the vultures gathered.

 

[Hawkeye]

Jesus came to save us and gift us with ETERNAL life.....same word used for eternal life and eternal damnation.

I gave you an entire article that you have yet to even try to refute.

Sorry.........you cannot establish and prove up your theology by changing the meaning of words you don't like. Your article is in error. AION and its adjective AIONION do not mean eternal. They pertain to periods of time with a beginning and an ending. It's where the English word, Eon comes from. Shouldn't that tell you something?

Common sense tells you that one, specific word may not have two diametrically opposed meanings. It's just silly that you believe this! Silly!

Scripture speaks of ages and thus far we have learned of these............

1. Pre Adamic age (age of Angels)
2. Adamic age (age of Men)
3. Age of Israel (Under Mosaic Law)
4. Age of the Church (under Yahweh's grace)
5. Millennial age (1000 years)
6. Lake of fire age (Judgement)
7. Eternity (The Kingdom of Yahweh)

[Hebrews 1:1-2] In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets, in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;

[Ephesians 3:21] to Him [is] the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.

 

[4Him]

Sorry.........you cannot establish and prove up your theology by changing the meaning of words you don't like.

Projection.

Your article is in error.

Yet you have yet to refute it.

AION and its adjective AIONION do not mean eternal.

Then ETERNAL life will end. Same word is used.

 

[Bob Dobbalina]

Sorry.........you cannot establish and prove up your theology by changing the meaning of words you don't like. Your article is in error. AION and its adjective AIONION do not mean eternal. They pertain to periods of time with a beginning and an ending. It's where the English word, Eon comes from. Shouldn't that tell you something?

Common sense tells you that one, specific word may not have two diametrically opposed meanings. It's just silly that you believe this! Silly!

Scripture speaks of ages and thus far we have learned of these............

1. Pre Adamic age (age of Angels)
2. Adamic age (age of Men)
3. Age of Israel (Under Mosaic Law)
4. Age of the Church (under Yahweh's grace)
5. Millennial age (1000 years)
6. Lake of fire age (Judgement)
7. Eternity (The Kingdom of Yahweh)

[Hebrews 1:1-2] In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets, in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;

[Ephesians 3:21] to Him [is] the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.

I've learned not to waste time feeding trolls; you're a great teacher because your posts include scriptural citations and are concise and informative. By all means, continue to knock down the nonsense with logical and cited application of scripture.
I've always believed that YHWH uses CARM more to teach those lurking, however. Yeshua came to teach those who wanted to learn. The majority of people who post on CARM already know everything.

 

[Bob Dobbalina]

Projection.


Yet you have yet to refute it.


Then ETERNAL life will end. Same word is used.

According as I said to you: My sheep My voice do hear, and I know them and they follow me,
and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish- to the age, and no one shall pluck them out of My hand;

Those who have ears to hear, will hear. I am done with you; you may have the last word.

 

[Hawkeye]

According as I said to you: My sheep My voice do hear, and I know them and they follow me,
and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish- to the age, and no one shall pluck them out of My hand;

Those who have ears to hear, will hear. I am done with you; you may have the last word.

Hey Bob,

How does AION have a plural if its an eternity [Ephesians 2:7]

Why do we constantly hear about the end of the age [Matthew 13:39-40][13:49][24:3][28:20][I Corinthians 10:11][Hebrews 9:26].

Read all those passages and use the word eternity instead of age. Does this make any sense to you?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Could you show that "alternative" part with scripture?
The only time scripture mentions eternal burning is when it talks about Satan and his demons' smoke going up forever. It says unrepentant sinners will be burned up in that fire.

Btw....I believe in a real hell where there will be gnashing of teeth but I do NOT believe in eternal torment. God says sinners will be destroyed.

IF you care:
Dan 12:2
Mat 19:29
Mat 25:41
Mat 25:46
Lk 16:9
2 Thess 1:9

 

[Gary Mac]

Not many people believe your spin of this this singular verse out of its' context, of sketchy translation, given to people who couldn't see and couldn't hear (the Pharisees). Nor should they.

Im honored that you think I wrote the kingdom of God doesnt come with observation but is withn you but actually I cant take credit for it, all I can do is repeat what Jesus said of you.

Luke 17:20-21 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”​

When Jesus explains what he was talking about to his disciples just a few verses later, he says why you can't observe it coming because it will come suddenly. Jesus did not describe the lack of observation as some esoteric thing. He described it as sudden, upon you before you saw it. It would be real, powerful, and after it arrived, it would be known to all as he explains in the next verses:

Jesus was spot on, it does come suddenly, all thinghs change in the twinkling of an eye, the corrupt put on incorruption, He opens a new heaven and earth. It happend in Jesus in a moments time, see Matt 3:16 else he wouldnt have bee withness for what he told them and tell us the same.

22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.​

And Jesus was spot on again, the day is here where people long to see the son of man coming as a god but they dont see it do they? And all of us who are sons of man AND sons of God are rejected by this generation of religious folks.

​

26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.​

Its coming. Same today as then. men lover of men more then God, an have made a man their god instead of the God who is a PSirit and resides in man His temple.

​

28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.​

Bingo hiastory repeats itself, people just cant learn can they.

​

Note how Jesus describes his coming:

• Like Lightning that stretches across the sky. It's coming cannot be observed.
• Like Noah's flood, it's coming wasn't observed until it was upon them.
• Like Sodom, they had no warning, destruction suddenly rained down from heaven.

And the only time "heaven" is mentioned in the passage, it is described as a physical place, not a state of being.

He does come like lighteneing and opens all of His heaven to the reciever of. And it isnt obserfeved by anyone until He is upon you to open His heaven to you. You have no warning you already have been wraned and He will reign down from His heaven, which is SPirit and not a place, and will destroy everything that you are and will put His kingdom withn you just as it says. Heavsn is not describes a s a physical place at all LOL, God kingdom is SPirit. That is why He does conme to all who will believe Him and open all of His heaven to you. See Matt 3:16 this is exactly how He does it in man. Always has been from Adam to today who will.

But wait, there's more, on the day he is revealed, real, physical location changes occur, not some esoteric change in disposition:

1 John 3 and when you to see Him as He really is ye shall be like Him as well. You dont believe John in that do you?

30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”​

Yes I have worked with many, I was taken out of this world by His SPirit but these as yourself are still of it. I am in this world but I am not of it, God removes us from this world to sit with Him in His throne, Rev 3:21. Now I am of His SPirit, His kingdom, heaven, His temple the place God resides. You just dont believe Him is all.

And the apostles make it clear that they understand physical locations are involved with their question, and Jesus confirms that real physical locations are involved by answering them:

Oh no' they did not until God came to them all by His SPirit and opend all of His heaven to them as well. They were seeking a physical kingdom just as you are doing but it took God to open His kingdonm in them see acts 2.

You are as they were before God came to them, all that you can understand of God is physical and not spiritual as He is Spirit. Cant see SPirit can you, But you can see flesh and bone that is not SPirit cant you?

37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.​

​

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”​

Let the reader understand where the dead body was, and where the vultures gathered.

One is dead in Christ already if that old man in carnality is still in charge. It takes a death tot that old man in carnality in order for the new man of Christ to rise in it. Until that man is raised up to where Jesus was in the Father, the vultures that do gather prey on those dead people spirituall,y who sit in a pew pretending to be of Christ but has no intention to have in them that what God put in Jesus. Until one is made alive in Chriust these vultures will gather,

Let the reader understand the Spirit side of Gods kingdom that He is.