The false doctrine of "sinful nature"

e v e

Well-known member
The garden in which this tree was situated is located in proximity to rivers, two of which are identified as the Tigris and the Euphrates... these and reference to place names (Assyria, for example) anchor the narrative here in this world in a known geographic locale. You are certainly welcome to believe otherwise, but we would then have very little common ground on which to have fruitful (pun very much intended) dialogue...

Kind regards,
Jonathan
Having a dialogue could of course happen with no shred of truth... per that definition. What good are words that have the wrong context?
 

Slyzr

Member
God’s realm understands all the below terms / archetypes differently. The sin realm (the tree of knowledge of good and evil) just recodes or refills all those terms.

realm
tree
good
evil
knowledge
sin
God
mind
spirit
physical
spiritual
man
soul

OK not an expert .....

but I tend to agree with you some what.

As in how would the Devil file his evil......

Of course he is going to ... file his evil as being good.

or good evil.

Not sure the english conjunction AND picks that up.

sr
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
God’s realm understands all the below terms / archetypes differently. The sin realm (the tree of knowledge of good and evil) just recodes or refills all those terms.

realm
tree
good
evil
knowledge
sin
God
mind
spirit
physical
spiritual
man
soul
Agreed, unfortunately least you have His same mind these can be obscured from a mind in carnality.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
There is this notion that sometimes crops up that humans have this "sinful nature" that is somehow a result of Adam and Eve eating from the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. Did you ever notice that one of the properties of the tree is that it was a tree of "the knowledge of Good"? If your doctrine precludes the idea that they have the knowledge of "good" and know only of "evil" after eating the fruit, please go back and read what the description of the tree is.

If we accept the idea that Adam and Eve had a "sinful" nature after they ate from the tree, and that their nature before the fall was "sinful", then when did the switch occur?



What nature did Adam and Eve have at the moment they they desired to sin?
  • sinful
  • not sinful
If Adam and Eve did have a "sinful" nature when they desired to sin, then some outside force acted on Adam and Eve to change their nature from "not sinful" to "sinful" prior to their desire to sin. The banishment from the garden and loss of access to the tree of life is because the nature of Adam and Eve were tampered with, not because they freely chose.

If Adam and Eve did not have a "sinful" nature when they desired to sin, then they desired sin without "sinful" nature.



What nature did Adam and Eve have the moment their desire to sin matured and they sinned?
  • sinful
  • not sinful

If Adam and Eve did have a "sinful" nature when they sinned, then some outside force acted on Adam and Eve to change their nature from "not sinful" to "sinful" before they sinned. The banishment from the garden and loss of access to the tree of life is because the nature of Adam and Eve were tampered with, not because they freely chose.

If Adam and Eve had a "not sinful" nature when they sinned, then they sinned without the "sinful" nature.



Conclusion: Either Adam and Eve either sinned
  • Without this thing called a "sinful" nature and likewise, so do we. The change is that we no longer have access to tree of life. (My view BTW)
or
  • With this thing called a "sinful" nature, and some out side force changed their nature from "not sinful" to "sinful". As a consequence they sinned and Adam and Eve are not to blame.


The Hebrew states in the day you eat "in dying you shall die." Two deaths are mentioned!

One death was immediate. Spiritual death. The other death to follow as a result of the first one. That one was physical death.
For when Adam ate he did not keel over and die physically. yet, God said he would die.

It was the spiritual death that ultimately led to Adam's physical death many years later.

Now, if one dies? And is resuscitated? During that time there can be brain damage. Likewise, when Adam died spiritually, some sort of damage took place that destroyed his perfection.

The Lord had to shed blood (to cover for their sins) in order to provide Adam and the woman animal skins. So, their spiritual lives were resuscitated... leaving them physically alive, but with some sort of damage that resulted in defective impulses from their flesh. Its in the flesh that the "sin nature" resides,. not the soul. And, its why we are all born sinners. Because that defect was passed down through physical procreation. God creates the soul, but man and the woman can only produce the body for that soul.

Romans 7:14-20, reveals that the sin nature resides in the flesh, not our soul.

Note: When Paul refers to "I" he is speaking of his soul. He differentiates between his soul and fallen body.
He no longer considered his body as being who he really is. For, he tells us in the Bible that he had been crucified in Christ.
God considers the body having been crucified and dead, though yet still extant.


For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would
like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not
want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.


So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the
willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I
want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

But if I am doing the very thing I do not want,
I am no longer the one doing it,
but sin which dwells in me.



grace and peace.....
 
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Tiburon

Member
Orange or cabbage is material, knowledge is not material. You really cannot decipher that difference ? Gosh even Adam found this difference. Gen 3:22.

God is a Spirit, His kingdom is Spirit, everything about Him is Spirit and man is the temple of. It doesn't come with observation, it is within you, or is supposed to be. See Jesus in Luke 17:21-22. You really do not know that God is Spirit do you?

Read Matt 3:16. Can you not see that God came to Jesus by His Spirit and opened all of His knowledge to him just as He did in Adam, Abraham, Moses, 120. So I take it that your god is not spirit?
You were saying the tree was spirit. Make up your mind. Is it the knowledge or the tree? You said everything god did in creation was spirit.
Are you saying Jesus wasn't God just the indwelling of his spirit?
You also say God opened all of His knowledge to Adam. Obviously he didn't otherwise there was no point to the Tree of knowledge.
 

Tiburon

Member
The Hebrew states in the day you eat "in dying you shall die." Two deaths are mentioned!

One death was immediate. Spiritual death. The other death to follow as a result of the first one. That one was physical death.
For when Adam ate he did not keel over and die physically. yet, God said he would die.

It was the spiritual death that ultimately led to Adam's physical death many years later.

Now, if one dies? And is resuscitated? During that time there can be brain damage. Likewise, when Adam died spiritually, some sort of damage took place that destroyed his perfection.

The Lord had to shed blood (to cover for their sins) in order to provide Adam and the woman animal skins. So, their spiritual lives were resuscitated... leaving them physically alive, but with some sort of damage that resulted in defective impulses from their flesh. Its in the flesh that the "sin nature" resides,. not the soul. And, its why we are all born sinners. Because that defect was passed down through physical procreation. God creates the soul, but man and the woman can only produce the body for that soul.

Romans 7:14-20, reveals that the sin nature resides in the flesh, not our soul.

Note: When Paul refers to "I" he is speaking of his soul. He differentiates between his soul and fallen body.
He no longer considered his body as being who he really is. For, he tells us in the Bible that he had been crucified in Christ.
God considers the body having been crucified and dead, though yet still extant.


For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would
like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not
want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.


So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the
willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I
want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

But if I am doing the very thing I do not want,
I am no longer the one doing it,
but sin which dwells in me.



grace and peace.....
Where does the Bible mention this spiritual death?
If physical death wasn't part of the original plan then what use was the Tree of Life?
 

En Hakkore

Active member
The Hebrew states in the day you eat "in dying you shall die." Two deaths are mentioned!
The verbal structure infinitive absolute + imperfect denotes certainty/intensity, not two different deaths. The same pairing is found in 1 Kgs 2:37 when King Solomon warns Shimei that if he leaves Jerusalem he will surely die. Note also this pattern with the verb 'to know' in the same verse here and with the verb 'to eat' in the verse preceding the Genesis passage.

Kind regards,
Jonathan
 

Stephen

Active member
The Hebrew states in the day you eat "in dying you shall die." Two deaths are mentioned!

One death was immediate. Spiritual death. The other death to follow as a result of the first one. That one was physical death.
For when Adam ate he did not keel over and die physically. yet, God said he would die.

It was the spiritual death that ultimately led to Adam's physical death many years later.

Now, if one dies? And is resuscitated? During that time there can be brain damage. Likewise, when Adam died spiritually, some sort of damage took place that destroyed his perfection.

The Lord had to shed blood (to cover for their sins) in order to provide Adam and the woman animal skins. So, their spiritual lives were resuscitated... leaving them physically alive, but with some sort of damage that resulted in defective impulses from their flesh. Its in the flesh that the "sin nature" resides,. not the soul. And, its why we are all born sinners. Because that defect was passed down through physical procreation. God creates the soul, but man and the woman can only produce the body for that soul.

Hi GeneZ,

Firstly, thanks for thoughtfully engaging even though you disagree with me. I think that thoughtful discussion is one of the purposes of the board, and thoughtful disagreement is so rare that it is a breath of fresh air.


I think you are on to something, but I can't go all the way down the road here. I agree with you that the impulses come from the flesh.

The quote is "dying you shall die" to me isn't saying that "this part of you dies, and then the rest of you shall die". There is only Adam in view, not the various bits of Adam in view so I'm reluctant to add parts to Adam. As the bible says, Adam became the soul (Gen 2:7, 1 Cor 15:45) rather than the idea that he has a soul.


Romans 7:14-20, reveals that the sin nature resides in the flesh, not our soul.

Note: When Paul refers to "I" he is speaking of his soul. He differentiates between his soul and fallen body.
He no longer considered his body as being who he really is. For, he tells us in the Bible that he had been crucified in Christ.
God considers the body having been crucified and dead, though yet still extant.

For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would
like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not
want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.


So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the
willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I
want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

But if I am doing the very thing I do not want,
I am no longer the one doing it,
but sin which dwells in me.

I think you are on to something in regards to what Paul is saying, but maybe adjust the terminology or see if we can work out some of the kinks. For instance, how you use the word "soul" here is likely what I would call "spirit", and what you call "flesh" here is what I might call "soul". With that, I'll explain my reasoning.


My understanding here is that by the word "spirit" Paul is speaking of that part of us what wants to be the better person like the the and the ultimate fulfillment of the law, the lifegiving spirit (Christ) teaches us to be. And by the word "soul", I believe that Paul means his Adamic nature i.e. his flesh.

Here in Romans 7, which I agree is the exact right passage to go to to think about these things, Paul is contrasting his desires of the flesh with the desires to do what the law and Christ desires he should do. The law and Christ has elevated him from a fleshly being ("soulish being" or "Adamic being") to a spiritual being ("Christ like being"). I arrive at this, by looking at how Paul contrasts "soul" and "spirit" in other writings. For example, in 1 Cor 2, Paul says:

1 Cor 2:14 The natural (i.e. soul) person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.​

And also

1 Corinthians 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living soul”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.​

Taking these two lengthy passages (1 Cor 2 and 1 Cor 15) back into Romans 7, Paul speaks of two Pauls. There is the Paul that wants to do what the flesh desires, and he has to kill that person every day. Then there is the other Paul, the one that wants to do what the spirit desires and Paul wants to be that person because that is the person God wants us to be.

This is ultimately what Christ did on the cross. He killed the flesh. He did it every day of his mortal life, and then finally on that last day he did it for good. Which is why Paul goes where he does at the beginning of Romans 8, he talks about crucifying the flesh.

As Christ did to his flesh, so also should we.


grace and peace.....

Grace and peace to you Gene. And thanks also.
 
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Gary Mac

Well-known member
You were saying the tree was spirit. Make up your mind. Is it the knowledge or the tree? You said everything god did in creation was spirit.
Are you saying Jesus wasn't God just the indwelling of his spirit?
You also say God opened all of His knowledge to Adam. Obviously he didn't otherwise there was no point to the Tree of knowledge.
Gods Spirit made up my mined for me. He is a Spirit not a tree.

And absolutely Jesus was not God, God is a Spirit not a man. And Gods Spirit came to that man in Matt 3:16 and opened up all of His knowledge to that man. You can read it. he did the same in Abraham, Moses, Mary Jesus 120 and in us all who has receive His Spirit that only He can give that knowledge. Jesus was no exception, same Spirit who was in Christ Jesus is supposed to be in you. But it isnt is it?
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Where does the Bible mention this spiritual death?
If physical death wasn't part of the original plan then what use was the Tree of Life?

"And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more
and more in knowledge and depth of insight."
Philippians 1:9





Adam was told on the day he ate he would die. Did Adam die physically? No. But he died.

"Let the dead bury their own dead."

And, in Adam all died.

He died spiritually. And, since then all men are born spiritually dead.

"Let the dead bury their own dead." = spiritual death.



The Tree of Life was there to reward Adam and the woman if they had passed the test. To live forever physically.

For some reason they had no desire to partake of it and had left it alone. Possibly it had rather ordinary looking fruit.
But, we are told that the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil was pleasant to behold.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good (suitable, pleasant) for food
and that it was delightful to look at, and a tree to be desired in order to make
one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she gave some also to her husband,
and he ate.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
The verbal structure infinitive absolute + imperfect denotes certainty/intensity, not two different deaths. The same pairing is found in 1 Kgs 2:37 when King Solomon warns Shimei that if he leaves Jerusalem he will surely die. Note also this pattern with the verb 'to know' in the same verse here and with the verb 'to eat' in the verse preceding the Genesis passage.

Kind regards,
Jonathan
It can be used either way you choose.. legitimately.

Did Adam drop dead when he ate? Man says, "no." God says "yes."

Did God lie when He warned not to eat that he would die in that day?

Satan was just as confused, because he was expecting to see this pain in the neck Adam gone from the planet he wanted back to rule over!
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Hi GeneZ,

Firstly, thanks for thoughtfully engaging even though you disagree with me. I think that thoughtful discussion is one of the purposes of the board, and thoughtful disagreement is so rare that it is a breath of fresh air.


I think you are on to something, but I can't go all the way down the road here. I agree with you that the impulses come from the flesh.

The quote is "dying you shall die" to me isn't saying that "this part of you dies, and then the rest of you shall die". There is only Adam in view, not the various bits of Adam in view so I'm reluctant to add parts to Adam. As the bible says, Adam became the soul (Gen 2:7, 1 Cor 15:45) rather than the idea that he has a soul.




I think you are on to something in regards to what Paul is saying, but maybe adjust the terminology or see if we can work out some of the kinks. For instance, how you use the word "soul" here is likely what I would call "spirit", and what you call "flesh" here is what I might call "soul". With that, I'll explain my reasoning.


My understanding here is that by the word "spirit" Paul is speaking of that part of us what wants to be the better person like the the and the ultimate fulfillment of the law, the lifegiving spirit (Christ) teaches us to be. And by the word "soul", I believe that Paul means his Adamic nature i.e. his flesh.

Here in Romans 7, which I agree is the exact right passage to go to to think about these things, Paul is contrasting his desires of the flesh with the desires to do what the law and Christ desires he should do. The law and Christ has elevated him from a fleshly being ("soulish being" or "Adamic being") to a spiritual being ("Christ like being"). I arrive at this, by looking at how Paul contrasts "soul" and "spirit" in other writings. For example, in 1 Cor 2, Paul says:

1 Cor 2:14 The natural (i.e. soul) person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.​

And also

1 Corinthians 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living soul”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.​

Taking these two lengthy passages (1 Cor 2 and 1 Cor 15) back into Romans 7, Paul speaks of two Pauls. There is the Paul that wants to do what the flesh desires, and he has to kill that person every day. Then there is the other Paul, the one that wants to do what the spirit desires and Paul wants to be that person because that is the person God wants us to be.

This is ultimately what Christ did on the cross. He killed the flesh. He did it every day of his mortal life, and then finally on that last day he did it for good. Which is why Paul goes where he does at the beginning of Romans 8, he talks about crucifying the flesh.

As Christ did to his flesh, so also should we.




Grace and peace to you Gene. And thanks also.
This would take a long time to cover to give it justice.

So... only one thing at a time.


In dying you shall die.

Not -

You shall die. But, in dying (somehow) you shall die (somehow).

And, if you like resting in sanity? Spiritual death leads to the physical death.

Spiritual death for Adam led to the denial of the Tree of Life. For God did not want Adam living forever with a sin nature.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
I think you are on to something in regards to what Paul is saying, but maybe adjust the terminology or see if we can work out some of the kinks. For instance, how you use the word "soul" here is likely what I would call "spirit", and what you call "flesh" here is what I might call "soul". With that, I'll explain my reasoning.
You are your soul. The human spirit is a Divine "app" that God installs at regeneration to make us receptive to the spiritual realities that God wants us to know. Not to be confused with the additional gift of the Holy Spirit that no OT saint had indwell him. Its what makes the Lord's Bride unique!

Soul and spirit are both invisible and immaterial.

Angels are spirits. Men are souls.

And, the Word of God differentiates between soul and human spirit.


Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely.
And may
your spirit, soul, and body be kept sound and blameless
for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
1 Thessalonians 5:23

Note: The Holy Spirit needs no sanctification, nor can ever be found with blame for anything. He does the sanctifying.
That speaks of our human spirit. The same human spirit that Jesus said the Holy Spirit begets when we are born again.
 
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