The false doctrine of "sinful nature"

Newbirth

Well-known member
Verse 17. Don't eat of the tree. If you do, you die. That's freedom of will.
Nope, that is a direct command and the consequence of what will happen if you disobey the command.
Not my problem. It's called freedom of will.
No, it is not... The command to not murder is not a freedom of will. Freedom of will has no consequence.
How is it you can't keep on point? Focus.
I am keeping on point...a command is not a freedom of will.
It means to know sexually as evidenced by the several examples given to you.
That means you are slow to understand... There is no need for examples. The fact that a child is born after Adam knew his wife is enough to know what happened. In the same way ...
Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
A child is born after the Holy Spirit overshadows Mary... It is not your fault that you cannot understand this...
You're arguing your physical god had relations with a woman?
Nope, It says the holy spirit...you are slow again... no mention of physical
Overshadowed is not used in that way in the NT
It sure means it here ...read it slowly...a child is born after Mary was overshadowed....
Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
The problem is that Christians as yourself think outside of Jewish ideology.
And your problem is you think that God is somehow locked in Jewish ideology.
In the Hebrew, spirit of holiness denotes in these verses that the child was consummated in marriage, in fulfillment of the commandments to procreate.
Nope, there was no child before the Angel spoke to her...
26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Marriage itself is called Kiddushin, coming from holiness. Joseph knew Mary, and then not again until the child was born.
False again, Joseph claimed he did not...
26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
Otherwise Jesus is a mamzer, conceived outside of marriage in adultery.
How is outside marriage adultery? One must have a husband or wife to commit adultery... A man and another man's wife or vice versa.
Yep. What was your question? Go look it up.
what was your verse...?
No, don't conflate. There's freedom of will to follow or not. Marriage, love, isn't forced.
No, there is no freedom to disobey God's command. If that were so there would be no consequence... There are no commands saying not to marry or not to love. God commanded Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge.
How do you know? What was your question?
The question is, when will you show the verse you said supports your argument?
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Nope, that is a direct command and the consequence of what will happen if you disobey the command.
You prove my point. Man had a choice.

No, it is not... The command to not murder is not a freedom of will. Freedom of will has no consequence.
Freedom of will does have consequences. I'm not sure what planet you live on.

I am keeping on point...a command is not a freedom of will.
You have the freedom to be obedient or not. You just need to live with the consequences.

That means you are slow to understand... There is no need for examples. The fact that a child is born after Adam knew his wife is enough to know what happened. In the same way ...
Then why did you ask the question, newbie? That was rather ridiculous of you.

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
A child is born after the Holy Spirit overshadows Mary... It is not your fault that you cannot understand this...
It's not my fault that Isaiah 7:14 doesn't point to a virgin birth, nor the impregnation by your god. Nor that the context of Isaiah 7 has nothing to do with Jesus, nor is your god intimately part of Jesus's genealogy in Matthew or Luke. Mary was impregnated with human sperm as reflected by the word tazria in Leviticus 12:2.

Nope, It says the holy spirit...you are slow again... no mention of physical
Yep, and Isaiah 7:14 doesn't mention it.

It sure means it here ...read it slowly...a child is born after Mary was overshadowed....
Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Yep, the spirit of holiness due to being married. Impregnated by her husband, hopefully. Overshadowed doesn't mean impregnated either.

And your problem is you think that God is somehow locked in Jewish ideology.
No, I just understand that God said nothing of impregnated a woman as Isaiah 7:14 clearly shows.

Nope, there was no child before the Angel spoke to her...
26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Yep, it says she will conceive. Not that she conceived at that moment. Conceiving outside of marriage would make Jesus a mamzer.

False again, Joseph claimed he did not...
26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

How is outside marriage adultery? One must have a husband or wife to commit adultery... A man and another man's wife or vice versa.
Espoused is married in the law, Deut 22:23-24. Saying your god impregnated her would be a sin.

what was your verse...?
What was your question?

No, there is no freedom to disobey God's command. If that were so there would be no consequence... There are no commands saying not to marry or not to love. God commanded Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge.
Wrong says what the consequences are. He told that to Adam as well.

The question is, when will you show the verse you said supports your argument?
What was your question?
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
You prove my point. Man had a choice.
I proved no such thing. You don't know what a choice is... The red traffic light means to stop. It is not a choice. If you breach the light you break the law.
Freedom of will does have consequences.
If one is free to do whatever he will do, what are the consequences?
I'm not sure what planet you live on.
I don't doubt that for a minute.
You have the freedom to be obedient or not.
No, you don't. We are commanded to be obedient... in your Tanakh, does God command you to obey or does he leave it up to you to choose whatever you want to do?
You just need to live with the consequences.
Consequences are for those who break the law. the disobedient... If one is free to do as he pleases then there can be no consequences since he has been given the Ok to do as he, please.
Then why did you ask the question, newbie? That was rather ridiculous of you.
What did I ask you? You are the one claiming that the verse does not mean Mary got pregnant after being overshadowed by the Holy Ghost.
It's not my fault that Isaiah 7:14 doesn't point to a virgin birth, nor the impregnation by your god. Nor that the context of Isaiah 7 has nothing to do with Jesus, nor is your god intimately part of Jesus's genealogy in Matthew or Luke. Mary was impregnated with human sperm as reflected by the word tazria in Leviticus 12:2.
It is not my fault that you are blind to the scripture.
Yep, and Isaiah 7:14 doesn't mention it.
I never said it did.
Yep, the spirit of holiness due to being married. Impregnated by her husband, hopefully. Overshadowed doesn't mean impregnated either.
nope, you are leaning on your own misunderstanding... I don't care what you think it means... she got pregnant after she was overshadowed..
No, I just understand that God said nothing of impregnated a woman as Isaiah 7:14 clearly shows.
Actually, it does...14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
There is no mention of a man making the virgin conceive.... To be clear if a man and a woman get together and have a baby that is not a sign of anything...God said he himself will give the sign...a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,...
Yep, it says she will conceive. Not that she conceived at that moment. Conceiving outside of marriage would make Jesus a mamzer.
So what is the sign? God says that he himself will give a sign...
a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,...If a virgin conceives and bear a son without a man that would be considered a sign from God would you agree?
Espoused is married in the law, Deut 22:23-24. Saying your god impregnated her would be a sin.
Don't be silly. Marriage is when there is consummation...You do know that the word uses for wife is the same word used for woman and female right? How would God impregnating a woman be a sin? You are exposing your ignorance yet again...The whole process is from God If God doesn't want a woman to have a child is that a sin?
What was your question?
I asked you for the verse you claim to have to support your claim
Wrong says what the consequences are. He told that to Adam as well.
Only wrong has consequences ...doing what is right has none, that is why we are free to do only what is right...
What was your question?
the verse that support your nonsense please
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
I proved no such thing. You don't know what a choice is... The red traffic light means to stop. It is not a choice. If you breach the light you break the law.
Of course you have a choice. You can run the light.

If one is free to do whatever he will do, what are the consequences?
Blessings or curses.

I don't doubt that for a minute.
Yep, I knew you were way out.

No, you don't. We are commanded to be obedient... in your Tanakh, does God command you to obey or does he leave it up to you to choose whatever you want to do?
He gives Blessings and Curses related to obedience.

Consequences are for those who break the law. the disobedient... If one is free to do as he pleases then there can be no consequences since he has been given the Ok to do as he, please.
There are good and bad consequences.

What did I ask you? You are the one claiming that the verse does not mean Mary got pregnant after being overshadowed by the Holy Ghost.
If you can't remember your own question that's your problem. I've always explained how Mary really became pregnant.

It is not my fault that you are blind to the scripture.
Dude, you're not handling the milk very well.

I never said it did.
Good.

nope, you are leaning on your own misunderstanding... I don't care what you think it means... she got pregnant after she was overshadowed..
Which doesn't mean impregnate or Jesus is mamzer. That's ok with me.

Actually, it does...14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
There is no mention of a man making the virgin conceive.... To be clear if a man and a woman get together and have a baby that is not a sign of anything...God said he himself will give the sign...a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,...
Actually not as Almah is not virgin. Isaiah 7:14-16 shows no spirit involved and the context is in the time of King Ahaz and Isaiah.

So what is the sign? God says that he himself will give a sign...
a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,...If a virgin conceives and bear a son without a man that would be considered a sign from God would you agree?
V15-16.

Don't be silly. Marriage is when there is consummation...You do know that the word uses for wife is the same word used for woman and female right? How would God impregnating a woman be a sin? You are exposing your ignorance yet again...The whole process is from God If God doesn't want a woman to have a child is that a sin?
Why do you argue with the commandments that clearly show Mary was married. Why did Joseph want to divorce a non-wife?

I asked you for the verse you claim to have to support your claim
I've shown everything. Be more specific.

Only wrong has consequences ...doing what is right has none, that is why we are free to do only what is right...
There are consequences for both. Look it up.

the verse that support your nonsense please
Be specific. I can't help you get off of milk to the meat if you can't be specific.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
Of course you have a choice. You can run the light.
You seem to have an understanding problem...Where in the driver's regulation does it say you can run the light? The regulation says stop at the red light. There is no mention of running the light...It is not a multiple-choice where you get to choose an option stop or run the light.
Blessings or curses.
You need to make up your mind. The rain does not fall on one man's head...sinners receive blessings every day.
Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Yep, I knew you were way out.
You said you were not sure...and I agreed that you are not sure ..nothing more... Your lack of understanding is making you cocky for no reason. You don't know anything.
He gives Blessings and Curses related to obedience.
Like I said before the rain is a blessing it does not fall only on the obedient. And please tell me what curses you are talking about...In the Tanakh, curses are set to befall the children of Israel...
There are good and bad consequences.
You are not making any sense. In the end, all die.
Ecclesiastes 2:16
For there is no remembrance of the wise more than of the fool for ever; seeing that which now is in the days to come shall all be forgotten. And how dieth the wise man? as the fool.
If you can't remember your own question that's your problem. I've always explained how Mary really became pregnant.
I already told you that you promised a verse...
Dude, you're not handling the milk very well.
you are not handling the scripture at all
Which doesn't mean impregnate or Jesus is mamzer. That's ok with me.
It must mean impregnate... It's not my problem you have little understanding in these matters... If someone told you he slept with your wife, would you think he dozed off with her or that he had sex with her?
Actually not as Almah is not virgin. Isaiah 7:14-16 shows no spirit involved and the context is in the time of King Ahaz and Isaiah.


V15-16.


Why do you argue with the commandments that clearly show Mary was married. Why did Joseph want to divorce a non-wife?
Again you are exposing your ignorance...It is the same with a man paying money down for a property... The seller considers the property as the man's property even though the agreement is not settled. Meaning the seller will not offer the same property to another buyer while holding the downpayment...However, the man could change his mind and ask back for his money. Joseph had legally agreed to marry Mary therefore he must legally separate if he changes his mind. That is not rocket science...
I've shown everything. Be more specific.
Except for the verse that you said you would post
There are consequences for both. Look it up.
You are moving the goalpost...the issue is not about consequence it is about your claim about being given a choice. Adam was not given a choice. Neither were the children of Israel concerning the law... The law says you shall not commit murder...It does not give you a choice like, you shall not commit murder or you shall commit murder if you choose.
Be specific. I can't help you get off of milk to the meat if you can't be specific.
Seems like you cannot remember what you said.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
You seem to have an understanding problem...Where in the driver's regulation does it say you can run the light? The regulation says stop at the red light. There is no mention of running the light...It is not a multiple-choice where you get to choose an option stop or run the light.
Why do you think accidents happen if there is no choice?


You need to make up your mind. The rain does not fall on one man's head...sinners receive blessings every day.
Yep, there's general providence and there is special providence. The world runs with general providence. Then there is special providence of a person or nation like Israel...

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Yep, you die for you own sins. Jesus did too.

You said you were not sure...and I agreed that you are not sure ..nothing more... Your lack of understanding is making you cocky for no reason. You don't know anything.
No, I said I don't know why babies die since they have no sin. You can't show which sin they've committed.

Like I said before the rain is a blessing it does not fall only on the obedient. And please tell me what curses you are talking about...In the Tanakh, curses are set to befall the children of Israel...
See above.

You are not making any sense. In the end, all die.
Ecclesiastes 2:16
For there is no remembrance of the wise more than of the fool for ever; seeing that which now is in the days to come shall all be forgotten. And how dieth the wise man? as the fool.
So, Jesus is a sinner too.

I already told you that you promised a verse...
On what subject? If you don't know, why bring it up?

you are not handling the scripture at all
On what subject?

It must mean impregnate... It's not my problem you have little understanding in these matters... If someone told you he slept with your wife, would you think he dozed off with her or that he had sex with her?
Overshadow doesn't mean impregnate unless you're saying Mary is an adulterous.

Again you are exposing your ignorance...It is the same with a man paying money down for a property... The seller considers the property as the man's property even though the agreement is not settled. Meaning the seller will not offer the same property to another buyer while holding the downpayment...However, the man could change his mind and ask back for his money. Joseph had legally agreed to marry Mary therefore he must legally separate if he changes his mind. That is not rocket science...
No, the laws say she was married. Why are you denying what is clearly written?

Except for the verse that you said you would post
On what topic? You're being obstinate and wasting space.

You are moving the goalpost...the issue is not about consequence it is about your claim about being given a choice. Adam was not given a choice. Neither were the children of Israel concerning the law... The law says you shall not commit murder...It does not give you a choice like, you shall not commit murder or you shall commit murder if you choose.
There's always a choice with outcomes.

Seems like you cannot remember what you said.
Seems like you don't know what you asked for?
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
Why do you think accidents happen if there is no choice?
I never said there is no choice .....I am saying that where you are saying there was a choice there was none...
Yep, there's general providence and there is special providence. The world runs with general providence. Then there is special providence of a person or nation like Israel...
only in obedience...you seem to forget God has a covenant. with Israel as a nation.
Yep, you die for you own sins. Jesus did too.
No, he didn't KJ21 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He hath put Him to grief. When thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
No, I said I don't know why babies die since they have no sin.
When you don't know listen to someone who knows. What is the point of arguing about something you know nothing about?
You can't show which sin they've committed.
I already explained that Adam passed on sin to all men including babies.
See above.
nothing to see you admitted you don't know
So, Jesus is a sinner too.
Nope
On what subject? If you don't know, why bring it up?
I never said I don't know ...you did..
On what subject?
all subjects
Overshadow doesn't mean impregnate unless you're saying Mary is an adulterous.
You cannot change the context...it says she was overshadowed and a child was born.
No, the laws say she was married. Why are you denying what is clearly written?
Does betroth mean married?
On what topic? You're being obstinate and wasting space.
You are being evasive...
There's always a choice with outcomes.
choice only comes into play when options are given...Thou shall not commit murder is not a choice...
Seems like you don't know what you asked for?
At this point, it does not matter. You don't know anything anyway.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
I never said there is no choice .....I am saying that where you are saying there was a choice there was none...
Sure there was. Don't eat... if you do...

only in obedience...you seem to forget God has a covenant. with Israel as a nation.
Yep, and sacrifices are part of it.

No, he didn't KJ21 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He hath put Him to grief. When thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
Of course Jesus sinned. Counted with the sinners. Tell me what an asham does?

When you don't know listen to someone who knows. What is the point of arguing about something you know nothing about?
Rotfl... tell me what an asham does, and how it applies to you since you're not under the law?

I already explained that Adam passed on sin to all men including babies.
Tanakh doesn't teach that. But if you like, Jesus dies as a result of your theory. Be consistent. He is a man, right?

nothing to see you admitted you don't know
Neither do you. But, its not for their sins.

Why not?

I never said I don't know ...you did..
Spell out what sins babies commit?

all subjects

You cannot change the context...it says she was overshadowed and a child was born.
Overshadowed doesn't mean impregnated anywhere. Now, sperm, as in tazria from Leviticus 12:2 is the ice breaker.

Or, Jesus is a mamzer because his mommy got pregnant by someone other than Joseph. We always come back to this, and you got nothing.

Does betroth mean married?
Does the commandments say she's married? Yes. And that's why Joseph wanted to divorce her. You don't divorce a girlfriend.

Deut 22:23-24
If there is a betrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her,
then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor’s wife. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.


You are being evasive...
Just answer.

choice only comes into play when options are given...Thou shall not commit murder is not a choice...
Adam was given an option. Don't eat.... if you do...

At this point, it does not matter. You don't know anything anyway.
So why did you make a big deal out of nothing?
 
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Newbirth

Well-known member
Sure there was. Don't eat... if you do...
that is not a choice...Choice is along the line of...You can eat if you want or you can not eat if you don't want..
Yep, and sacrifices are part of it.
the bigger part is obedience...
Of course Jesus sinned. Counted with the sinners. Tell me what an asham does?
Counted with is not counted as. English please
Rotfl... tell me what an asham does, and how it applies to you since you're not under the law?
OK since you insist...The asham(offense) offering must be without blemish correct? You have not addressed the verse....Isa 53:10
God will not accept a sinful soul as an offering for sin ...
OJB
Yet it pleased Hashem to bruise him; He hath put him to suffering; when Thou shalt make his nefesh (soul) an asham (offense) offering for sin, he (Moshiach) shall see zera [see Psalm 16 and Yn 1:12 OJBC], He shall prolong his yamim (days) and the chefetz Hashem (pleasure, will of Hashem) shall prosper in his [Moshiach’s] hand.
You are refuting your own argument...The Messiah is the offering for sin. Even if you don't accept Jesus as the Messiah...you have to accept Isaiah 53:10...Please explain whose soul is Hashem making an asham offering for sin?
Tanakh doesn't teach that. But if you like, Jesus dies as a result of your theory. Be consistent. He is a man, right?
It does...because Adam brought sin and death into the world...There is no record of death or sin in the world before Adam
Neither do you. But, its not for their sins.
I am teaching you. You said you don't know.
Spell out what sins babies commit?
I never said babies sin...you said all die because of their own sin but you cannot explain why babies die...If babies have no sin then they ought not to die.
Overshadowed doesn't mean impregnated anywhere. Now, sperm, as in tazria from Leviticus 12:2 is the ice breaker.
One can use any word to mean impregnate...some people say breed some say knockup...only a dunce will not be able to understand that.
Or, Jesus is a mamzer because his mommy got pregnant by someone other than Joseph. We always come back to this, and you got nothing.
Yes, It was God who did it...You should try stoning God...
Does the commandments say she's married? Yes. And that's why Joseph wanted to divorce her. You don't divorce a girlfriend.
So you want to play word games...marriage is formalized with sexual intercourse. Divorce is to put away...one can put away his girlfriend...you are not very smart.
Deut 22:23-24
If there is a betrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her,
then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor’s wife. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
we have been through this before...the word ishshah is used for woman, wife and female. Again you are exposing your ignorance...
Adam was given an option. Don't eat.... if you do...
Nope, Adam was given a command...That statement is an outright lie...
15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
So why did you make a big deal out of nothing?
I never said it was nothing..
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
that is not a choice...Choice is along the line of...You can eat if you want or you can not eat if you don't want..
Its a choice. If you eat, you die.

the bigger part is obedience...
But the whole has sacrifices. Even Jesus contributed for his own sacrifices as part of the temple tax.

Counted with is not counted as. English please
Counted with the sinners, as he was one too. You know the term asham. Why act ignorant?

OK since you insist...The asham(offense) offering must be without blemish correct? You have not addressed the verse....Isa 53:10
God will not accept a sinful soul as an offering for sin ...
OJB
Yet it pleased Hashem to bruise him; He hath put him to suffering; when Thou shalt make his nefesh (soul) an asham (offense) offering for sin, he (Moshiach) shall see zera [see Psalm 16 and Yn 1:12 OJBC], He shall prolong his yamim (days) and the chefetz Hashem (pleasure, will of Hashem) shall prosper in his [Moshiach’s] hand.
You are refuting your own argument...The Messiah is the offering for sin. Even if you don't accept Jesus as the Messiah...you have to accept Isaiah 53:10...Please explain whose soul is Hashem making an asham offering for sin?
An asham doesn't cover all sins. And God never accepted human sacrifices, so your argument is dead on arrival.

Why are you adding your personal comments to Isaiah 53?

It does...because Adam brought sin and death into the world...There is no record of death or sin in the world before Adam
You cannot back that from Tanakh. Ezekiel 18 doesn't mention Adam as a cause for sins.

I am teaching you. You said you don't know.
You've done a lousy job because you've changed your mind several times. You've agreed children don't sin, they're innocent. So, there is another cause for the suffering and death of infants. Ezekiel 18 says they don't die because of fathers.

I never said babies sin...you said all die because of their own sin but you cannot explain why babies die...If babies have no sin then they ought not to die.
I said all men, adults. Babies aren't adults. Surely you can grasp that. If a house falls on a newborn, will it probably die? Was it because of sin?

One can use any word to mean impregnate...some people say breed some say knockup...only a dunce will not be able to understand that.
So why don't you get it? You're arguing for Jesus being a mamzer and disqualified from being Messiah. You're doing a great job!

Yes, It was God who did it...You should try stoning God...
Sorry, but Isaiah 7:14-16 doesn't support the gospel narratives, nor is God a human to transfer human seed.

So you want to play word games...marriage is formalized with sexual intercourse. Divorce is to put away...one can put away his girlfriend...you are not very smart.
Again, the commandments clearly say a betrothed women is married. So your willful ignorance, at best, is exposed again.

You don't put away a girlfriend for divorce, newbie. That's the context.

we have been through this before...the word ishshah is used for woman, wife and female. Again you are exposing your ignorance...
We've been through a lot. The fact is Mary was a married woman and conception with another person is adultery and the product a mamzer.

Nope, Adam was given a command...That statement is an outright lie...
15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
There's the choice... eat and die.

I never said it was nothing..
Then stop posting without asking for anything.
 
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Newbirth

Well-known member
Its a choice. If you eat, you die.
Nope command ...Don't eat...
But the whole has sacrifices. Even Jesus contributed for his own sacrifices as part of the temple tax.
yes, so what is your point?... You are yet to say something about Isa 53...
Counted with the sinners, as he was one too. You know the term asham. Why act ignorant?
No, If you count a sheep with goats does that make the sheep a goat...You are not very smart...
An asham doesn't cover all sins.
I never said it did Here the scripture is saying that a man's soul is an offering for sin..You are making a strawman argument. Read it slowly...10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
Who is this speaking about? You seem to be denying the scripture.
And God never accepted human sacrifices, so your argument is dead on arrival.
You are the one who said a man pays for his own sins by death...that would be a sacrifice. If God does not accept human sacrifice how will you pay for your sins with your death?
Why are you adding your personal comments to Isaiah 53?
there are many translations...you haven't picked one yet..
You cannot back that from Tanakh. Ezekiel 18 doesn't mention Adam as a cause for sins.
It does not have to say it. According to your understanding who brought sin and death into the world?
You've done a lousy job because you've changed your mind several times. You've agreed children don't sin, they're innocent. So, there is another cause for the suffering and death of infants. Ezekiel 18 says they don't die because of fathers.
I have not changed my mind....show me where I changed my mind...You are the one speaking with a forked tongue...You said all die because of their own sins...I said if that is so why do babies die...? You said that you don't know...But you know that babies have no sin...If they have no sin they cannot die...because all die because of sin. You are between a rock and a hard place.
I said all men, adults. Babies aren't adults.
So babies are not counted as men? I take that to mean all humans...else you cannot count women...are you saying that women don't die because of their sins?
Surely you can grasp that. If a house falls on a newborn, will it probably die? Was it because of sin?
If a person is granted eternal life and a house fall in them will they die? Perhaps not else that is not eternal life. You are trying to dodge...I am not talking about a house falling on anyone. I am talking about babies dying soon after birth. Apart from the house falling on them. They were alive one moment and then they just die...Why do you suppose they die?.. Oh you already said you don't know...
So why don't you get it? You're arguing for Jesus being a mamzer and disqualified from being Messiah. You're doing a great job!
Nope, you are making that argument...
Sorry, but Isaiah 7:14-16 doesn't support the gospel narratives, nor is God a human to transfer human seed.
So your God is limited by human interaction?...So who made the human? You expect your God who cannot put a seed in a woman to make a baby...to give you eternal life after you are dead and rotted?
Again, the commandments clearly say a betrothed women is married. So your willful ignorance, at best, is exposed again.
nope your ignorance say that
You don't put away a girlfriend for divorce, newbie. That's the context.
You do if you agreed to marry them according to Hebrew custom... If not she is free to be betrothed to someone else.
We've been through a lot. The fact is Mary was a married woman and conception with another person is adultery and the product a mamzer.
she was betrothed..engaged...not married. The marriage takes place in the bed. The steps are betrothed, wedding, marriage.
There's the choice... eat and die.
that is not a choice...a choice would be, eat or don't eat...
Then stop posting without asking for anything.
As if that makes any sense...LOL
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Nope command ...Don't eat...
Yep choices with consequences.

yes, so what is your point?... You are yet to say something about Isa 53...
That's not true. You brought it up and I've showed how asham doesn't cover all sins. You should know that by now.

No, If you count a sheep with goats does that make the sheep a goat...You are not very smart...
It makes them animals. Messiah is nowhere prophesied to be sinless. So, you continue in your ignorance.

I never said it did Here the scripture is saying that a man's soul is an offering for sin..You are making a strawman argument. Read it slowly...10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
Who is this speaking about? You seem to be denying the scripture.
It doesn't say a man is offered. Why do you add that? More importantly, an asham doesn't cover all sins.

You are the one who said a man pays for his own sins by death...that would be a sacrifice. If God does not accept human sacrifice how will you pay for your sins with your death?
Death is the payment. It's pretty simple. Even the NT acknowledges the wages of sin is death. A sacrifice involves the taking of a life via slaughter on an altar.

there are many translations...you haven't picked one yet..
None of them have Messiah in them. Check the Hebrew.

It does not have to say it. According to your understanding who brought sin and death into the world?
Eve and Adam to themselves. Each person after that chooses sin as well. Again, Cain didn't die for the sins of his father, Ezekiel 18.

I have not changed my mind....show me where I changed my mind...You are the one speaking with a forked tongue...You said all die because of their own sins...I said if that is so why do babies die...? You said that you don't know...But you know that babies have no sin...If they have no sin they cannot die...because all die because of sin. You are between a rock and a hard place.
You've changed your stance from sin being inherited to just the sinful nature being inherited. You changed your stance when you were cornered with Jesus inheriting sin with your logic.

I said men die as a result of sins. Babies aren't men, and you've already agreed they don't sin.

So, babies die by no fault of their own.

So babies are not counted as men? I take that to mean all humans...else you cannot count women...are you saying that women don't die because of their sins?
Babies aren't adults. Why are you being so obstinate? There are sacrifices that women bring for their sins. I've told you this several times.

If a person is granted eternal life and a house fall in them will they die?
Maybe they are regenerated like the terminator. Tanakh doesn't say how eternal life is. Some think it is physical, others spiritual. Do those with eternal life eat, drink, and marry?

Perhaps not else that is not eternal life. You are trying to dodge...I am not talking about a house falling on anyone. I am talking about babies dying soon after birth. Apart from the house falling on them. They were alive one moment and then they just die...Why do you suppose they die?.. Oh you already said you don't know...
I never mentioned eternal life. If eternal is by faith, does a newborn have faith?

Nope, you are making that argument...
That's your logic. A child outside the bounds of marriage, is adultery, and makes them a mamzer.

So your God is limited by human interaction?...So who made the human? You expect your God who cannot put a seed in a woman to make a baby...to give you eternal life after you are dead and rotted?
No prophecy mentions God impregnating a woman. That's your problem. Rotfl...

nope your ignorance say that
Nope, the commandments say it. Why do you deny it?

Deut 22:23-24
If there is a virgin pledged in marriage to a man, and another man encounters her in the city and sleeps with her, you must take both of them out to the gate of that city and stone them to death—the young woman because she did not cry out in the city, and the man because he has violated his neighbor’s wife. So you must purge the evil from among you.

Clear as day, a betrothed is a wife.

You do if you agreed to marry them according to Hebrew custom... If not she is free to be betrothed to someone else.
Why are you being wilfully stupid? The context we're talking about are the commandments and Mary being married to Joseph.

she was betrothed..engaged...not married. The marriage takes place in the bed. The steps are
betrothed, wedding, marriage.
Deut 22:23-24 shows a betrothed is a wife above. You have no case. We're not talking about what you do.

that is not a choice...a choice would be, eat or don't eat...
It's a choice with outcomes.

As if that makes any sense...LOL
Which is what I thought of your rambling on with no purpose.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
Yep choices with consequences.
choices are separated by or
That's not true. You brought it up and I've showed how asham doesn't cover all sins. You should know that by now.
you are not making any sense...it is a guilt/offense offering...therefore it covers all sins that you are guilty of or all offenses that you have committed...Please explain which sin is not an offense and you are not guilty of and why you would require an offering for it?
It makes them animals.
my point exactly...goats and sheep...animals...sinners and non-sinner... humans
Messiah is nowhere prophesied to be sinless. So, you continue in your ignorance.
Where is he prophesied to be a sinner? How is a regular sinner's soul offered here as an offering for sin... Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
It doesn't say a man is offered. Why do you add that? More importantly, an asham doesn't cover all sins.
It is speaking about a man...
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Death is the payment. It's pretty simple. Even the NT acknowledges the wages of sin is death. A sacrifice involves the taking of a life via slaughter on an altar.


None of them have Messiah in them. Check the Hebrew.


Eve and Adam to themselves. Each person after that chooses sin as well. Again, Cain didn't die for the sins of his father, Ezekiel 18.


You've changed your stance from sin being inherited to just the sinful nature being inherited. You changed your stance when you were cornered with Jesus inheriting sin with your logic.

I said men die as a result of sins. Babies aren't men, and you've already agreed they don't sin.

So, babies die by no fault of their own.


Babies aren't adults. Why are you being so obstinate? There are sacrifices that women bring for their sins. I've told you this several times.


Maybe they are regenerated like the terminator. Tanakh doesn't say how eternal life is. Some think it is physical, others spiritual. Do those with eternal life eat, drink, and marry?


I never mentioned eternal life. If eternal is by faith, does a newborn have faith?


That's your logic. A child outside the bounds of marriage, is adultery, and makes them a mamzer.


No prophecy mentions God impregnating a woman. That's your problem. Rotfl...


Nope, the commandments say it. Why do you deny it?

Deut 22:23-24
If there is a virgin pledged in marriage to a man, and another man encounters her in the city and sleeps with her, you must take both of them out to the gate of that city and stone them to death—the young woman because she did not cry out in the city, and the man because he has violated his neighbor’s wife. So you must purge the evil from among you.

Clear as day, a betrothed is a wife.


Why are you being wilfully stupid? The context we're talking about are the commandments and Mary being married to Joseph.


Deut 22:23-24 shows a betrothed is a wife above. You have no case. We're not talking about what you do.


It's a choice with outcomes.


Which is what I thought of your rambling on with no purpose.
There is no need to respond to anything else...Isaiah 53 is about a man you are saying it doesn't say a man is offered...It makes no sense talking to a dunce about the scripture.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
choices are separated by or
Not always.

you are not making any sense...it is a guilt/offense offering...therefore it covers all sins that you are guilty of or all offenses that you have committed...Please explain which sin is not an offense and you are not guilty of and why you would require an offering for it?
No, we see that in Numbers 15:22-31, sacrifices don't help for intentional sins.

my point exactly...goats and sheep...animals...sinners and non-sinner... humans
The servant is included, not excluded, from the sinners.

Where is he prophesied to be a sinner? How is a regular sinner's soul offered here as an offering for sin... Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
Remember like I've taught you that a righteous person is forgiven, and has no sins? Jesus didn't see his days prolonged, see any seed, etc.

It is speaking about a man...
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was
Bemotaiv, plural deaths in verse 9. How many times did Jesus die? No violence doesn't mean no sins ever committed.

any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
As shown, an asham doesn't cover all sins. BTW, how would a gentile like you be covered by sacrifices when your not under the covenant, nor does Jesus' mention his righteousness covers you?

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

There is no need to respond to anything else...Isaiah 53 is about a man you are saying it doesn't say a man is offered...It makes no sense talking to a dunce about the scripture.
Israel is identified in several places in Isaiah as the servant. You can put your dunce hat back on, and go to your corner.

Tootles, newbie ;)
 
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Newbirth

Well-known member
Not always.
always since choice gives an option between at least two things..one or the other.
No, we see that in Numbers 15:22-31, sacrifices don't help for intentional sins.
If that is so then David is cut off permanently because he intentionally sinned against God with Bathsheba.
The servant is included, not excluded, from the sinners.
What are you talking about...? 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

he was numbered with the transgressors (as a sheep numbered with goats) He made intercession for the transgressors. Even the priests had to be purified before making sacrifices for the congregation
Remember like I've taught you that a righteous person is forgiven, and has no sins?
If a person is righteous what is he forgiven of? One must first be unrighteous/ a sinner to be forgiven of sins...
Jesus didn't see his days prolonged, see any seed, etc.
Of course, he was resurrected.
Bemotaiv, plural deaths in verse 9. How many times did Jesus die? No violence doesn't mean no sins ever committed.
Vs 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Before you respond read vs 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isn't that what you are doing? Wow You are famous...Isaiah prophesied about you...


As shown, an asham doesn't cover all sins.
It's a guilt offering it covers all who confess their guilt. You are not very smart. It covers the sins that you are guilty of.
BTW, how would a gentile like you be covered by sacrifices when your not under the covenant, nor does Jesus' mention his righteousness covers you?
Isaiah 11:10
And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Isaiah 42:1
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isaiah 49:6
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Israel is identified in several places in Isaiah as the servant. You can put your dunce hat back on, and go to your corner.

Tootles, newbie ;)
But there is a servant who delivers Israel. Can you not read...?
Isaiah 49:6
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
I like this translation...
NOG
Now, Yahweh says, “You are not just my servant who restores the tribes of Jacob and brings back those in Israel whom I have preserved. I have also made you a light for the nations so that you would save people all over the world.”
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
I proved no such thing. You don't know what a choice is... The red traffic light means to stop. It is not a choice. If you breach the light you break the law.
If it isnt a choice then why do people get ticketed for making a choice to run the red light? And it is a choice to receive from God that what Jesus received from Him or not.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
If it isnt a choice then why do people get ticketed for making a choice to run the red light?
because it is not a choice you are given at the red light Gary. The red light means stop nothing else
And it is a choice to receive from God that what Jesus received from Him or not.
In that case, there is the option to n receive or not to receive. Very different from the red light...very different from Adam.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
because it is not a choice you are given at the red light Gary. The red light means stop nothing else

In that case, there is the option to n receive or not to receive. Very different from the red light...very different from Adam.
Yes it means stop for sure. What choice did you make last time you were at one, did you stop or did you go through without stopping? I would assume you made the choice to stop ?

Not different at all. even Adam made a choice to become like God or not, Gen 3:22. Jesus made that same choice to stop or go knowing what his end would be. Abraham made that choice, Moses made that choice to stop or go.

Just as with the red light the law said pick up that cross and continue where he left off, did you stop and picked up where Jesus left off or did you go and do it? ANd as the laws for the red light the law to be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect is a choice just as the red light is. Simple logic knows all has a choice in everything they do.
 
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