The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit work together as the One God !

civic

Active member
Jesus and The Apostles in their writings reveals the Father, Son and Holy Spirit working together in the believers life. They are distinct Persons within the One God.


John 15:26-27
26
"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, 27and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.


John 16:5-8
"But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, Where are You going?' 6"But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go,I will send Him to you. 8"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;


John 16:13-15
13
"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14"He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15"All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.


Matthew 3:16-17
16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; 17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."


Matt 28:19-20
19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. "


Now below Paul will lay out our triune God below in these passages.


Rom 8:9-11
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Rom 8:14-17
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Rom 8:26-36
26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; 34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Rom 14:17-18
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.

1 Cor 2:10-16
10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

1 Cor 12:3-6
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.


Titus 3:4-7
4
But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Ephesians 1:3-14
3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.


1-Paul gives praise, glory and honor to the Father in 1:3-6
2-Paul gives praise, glory and honor to the Son in 1:7-12
3-Paul gives praise, glory and honor to the Holy Spirit in 1:13-14

Hence once again we see the Trinity in Action in the life of the believer!

Salvation is administered and assigned by the Father, accomplished and achieved through the Son and applied and activated by the Holy Spirit. We see the Trinity in action in the Redemption of the believer.

hope this helps !!!
 

Gary Mac

Member
Jesus and The Apostles in their writings reveals the Father, Son and Holy Spirit working together in the believers life. They are distinct Persons within the One God.


John 15:26-27
26
"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, 27and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.


John 16:5-8
"But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, Where are You going?' 6"But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go,I will send Him to you. 8"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;


John 16:13-15
13
"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14"He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15"All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.


Matthew 3:16-17
16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; 17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."


Matt 28:19-20
19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. "


Now below Paul will lay out our triune God below in these passages.


Rom 8:9-11
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Rom 8:14-17
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Rom 8:26-36
26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; 34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Rom 14:17-18
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.

1 Cor 2:10-16
10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

1 Cor 12:3-6
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.


Titus 3:4-7
4
But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Ephesians 1:3-14
3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.


1-Paul gives praise, glory and honor to the Father in 1:3-6
2-Paul gives praise, glory and honor to the Son in 1:7-12
3-Paul gives praise, glory and honor to the Holy Spirit in 1:13-14

Hence once again we see the Trinity in Action in the life of the believer!

Salvation is administered and assigned by the Father, accomplished and achieved through the Son and applied and activated by the Holy Spirit. We see the Trinity in action in the Redemption of the believer.

hope this helps !!!
In John 17 Jesus was clear that we all are to be on in the Father with He in you and you in Him as one as He was in Jesus and Jesus was in Him as one. God is my Father ,I am His son by His Spirit and we are one just as Jesus prayed to our God for us to be.
 

rod.ney

Member
In John 17 Jesus was clear that we all are to be on in the Father with He in you and you in Him as one as He was in Jesus and Jesus was in Him as one. God is my Father ,I am His son by His Spirit and we are one just as Jesus prayed to our God for us to be.
But Jesus is God the Father's ONLY Begotten Son ( God the Son ) and you are just an adopted son ( Not God the Son )! God's say so in ( John 1:18 and Heb. 1:8 ) proves that Truth! You are NOT both God and Man like Jesus is! This is how ALL things got created Through/By Him ( God the Word, who became a man called Jesus Christ - John1:1+14 ) as per God's say so in John 1:3 in conjunction with Col.1:16 !
 

Gary Mac

Member
But Jesus is God the Father's ONLY Begotten Son ( God the Son ) and you are just an adopted son ( Not God the Son )! God's say so in ( John 1:18 and Heb. 1:8 ) proves that Truth! You are NOT both God and Man like Jesus is! This is how ALL things got created Through/By Him ( God the Word, who became a man called Jesus Christ - John1:1+14 ) as per God's say so in John 1:3 in conjunction with Col.1:16 !
I follow Jesus not Paul. Jesus is secure enough for me that he said God sent him to show me the way to God to be His son by His Spirit. These three are one, John 17. If Jesus didnt get His message across to you then I would seek what Jesus said of himself and who you should be in the Father yourself. Jesus really did say in John 16:23 that in that day ye shall ask me noting but go to the father for yourself and He will give it you and in that I can use his name to receive from God Himself and no longer have to depend on Jesus for instruction.

If one has not reached that maturity how can you relate to the father, son and holy Spirit at all? You cant, you depend on secondhand information which allows speculation instead of facts.

Either you are one in the Father with He in you and you in Him as one and perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect and have His same mind the mind of Christ or you do not. You cant begotten of God least you do.
 
I follow Jesus not Paul. Jesus is secure enough for me that he said God sent him to show me the way to God to be His son by His Spirit. These three are one, John 17. If Jesus didnt get His message across to you then I would seek what Jesus said of himself and who you should be in the Father yourself. Jesus really did say in John 16:23 that in that day ye shall ask me noting but go to the father for yourself and He will give it you and in that I can use his name to receive from God Himself and no longer have to depend on Jesus for instruction.

If one has not reached that maturity how can you relate to the father, son and holy Spirit at all? You cant, you depend on secondhand information which allows speculation instead of facts.

Either you are one in the Father with He in you and you in Him as one and perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect and have His same mind the mind of Christ or you do not. You cant begotten of God least you do.
"I follow Jesus not Paul." This is major problem for you. "All Scripture is God-breathed..." Paul, as an apostle, writes with the full authority of Jesus behind him. Failure to listen to Paul is a failure to listen to Jesus.
 

Gary Mac

Member
"I follow Jesus not Paul." This is major problem for you. "All Scripture is God-breathed..." Paul, as an apostle, writes with the full authority of Jesus behind him. Failure to listen to Paul is a failure to listen to Jesus.
Actually following Jesus seems to be the problem for you. Paul was like any other religious preacher whos belief made his own laws to look noble toward man, he even stated that he used trickery to get people to follow him and that he had a thorn in his flesh which was his desire to be recognized for his abundance of revelation.

If you have to have Paul as your guide then so be it but as for me Jesus is sufficient in that he said that in that day I will have to ask him noting but go to the Father for myself and He will give it me and did give it me.

Paul made his own laws to govern his religion. He teaches that you are just a dirty ole sinner where Jesus taught to be the righteousness of God as he was the righteousness of God and without sin to be ye therefore perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect.

One of these was a sinner and teaches that you are a sinner as he was. This is the one that you follow as you say.

One of these was not a sinner and teaches me be without sin and teaches the One who takes away the sins of this world should be in you. This is the One that I follow as He says.
 
Actually following Jesus seems to be the problem for you. Paul was like any other religious preacher whos belief made his own laws to look noble toward man, he even stated that he used trickery to get people to follow him and that he had a thorn in his flesh which was his desire to be recognized for his abundance of revelation.

If you have to have Paul as your guide then so be it but as for me Jesus is sufficient in that he said that in that day I will have to ask him noting but go to the Father for myself and He will give it me and did give it me.

Paul made his own laws to govern his religion. He teaches that you are just a dirty ole sinner where Jesus taught to be the righteousness of God as he was the righteousness of God and without sin to be ye therefore perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect.

One of these was a sinner and teaches that you are a sinner as he was. This is the one that you follow as you say.

One of these was not a sinner and teaches me be without sin and teaches the One who takes away the sins of this world should be in you. This is the One that I follow as He says.
So effectively you take the Marcionite position and reject major portions of Scripture. As a Christian, I accept the entire word of God as containing the system of doctrine which we are to believe. Good to know where you are coming from, though.
 

Anthony

Member
Actually following Jesus seems to be the problem for you. Paul was like any other religious preacher whos belief made his own laws to look noble toward man, he even stated that he used trickery to get people to follow him and that he had a thorn in his flesh which was his desire to be recognized for his abundance of revelation.

If you have to have Paul as your guide then so be it but as for me Jesus is sufficient in that he said that in that day I will have to ask him noting but go to the Father for myself and He will give it me and did give it me.

Paul made his own laws to govern his religion. He teaches that you are just a dirty ole sinner where Jesus taught to be the righteousness of God as he was the righteousness of God and without sin to be ye therefore perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect.

One of these was a sinner and teaches that you are a sinner as he was. This is the one that you follow as you say.

One of these was not a sinner and teaches me be without sin and teaches the One who takes away the sins of this world should be in you. This is the One that I follow as He says.
You are totally misinformed about Apostle Paul.

Paul was mostly addressing Judaizers - his former brethren who were extremists like he used to be.

There are two extremes we must get rid of.

1. Judaism following Torah of works without faith in Messiah.

2. Christianity supposedly demonstrating faith in Messiah with no works of Torah (practicing lawlessness).

Messiah didn't come to get rid of Torah but fulfill obedience and change priesthood from Levitical system to the priesthood of Melekitsedeq in which there is no need of a Temple with animal sacrifices.

Paul is grossly misunderstood in Christendom as in most of his Epistles he is addressing Judaizers and how that circumcision follows act of faith and not before faith (Acts 15; Gal 5:1-7). We don't keep Torah to be saved but salvation (faith in Messiah) comes first and then to back up faith the works of Torah is demonstrated. Abraham walked with YHWH from the age of 75 and it wasn't until 99 years he received circumcision as a seal of righteousness. Abraham was saved much before he was circumcised.

The appointed times given to Israel (7 Muadym) was in reality their appointment with Messiah who is the goal of Torah. Without Messiah/Christ Torah is meaningless and only works of self-righteousness.
 

Gary Mac

Member
"I follow Jesus not Paul." This is major problem for you. "All Scripture is God-breathed..." Paul, as an apostle, writes with the full authority of Jesus behind him. Failure to listen to Paul is a failure to listen to Jesus.
Can you expound how these scriptures came into canon in the first place? Was it not by a King who authorized it and didn't even believe in God in the first place? And you say it was God breathed? You are only wading in the shallows of a deep ocean
So effectively you take the Marcionite position and reject major portions of Scripture. As a Christian, I accept the entire word of God as containing the system of doctrine which we are to believe. Good to know where you are coming from, though.
Because of insufficient data I cannot comment for what Marcionite position is and really do not care. What matters to me is what is quoted of Jesus Christ. Opinions about him do not matter to me -- what matters to me is my life lining up with the standards of Jesus Christ to have his same Spirit, same mind the mind of Christ, to walk as He walks in it.

For me Jesus is the way the truth and the life we are supposed to live in the Father and no one, not one comes to the father least you do have that what Jesus had in the Father, you cant live it without it.

Jesus was sufficient in conveying to me that what the Father demands of me to have His same SPirit and be ye therefore perfect even as my Father in heaven is perfect as Jesus commanded of me.

You act as if you need the opinions of someone else such as Paul to teach you their laws that regulates their gods.

May I ask you why Jesus is not sufficient to deliver the way of God but Paul is?
 

Gary Mac

Member
You are totally misinformed about Apostle Paul.

Paul was mostly addressing Judaizers - his former brethren who were extremists like he used to be.
And Paul taught that you are just a dirty ole sinner not worthy of the kingdom of God, Jesus taught just the opposit to be ye therefore perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect,
1. Judaism following Torah of works without faith in Messiah.
Jesus teaches to have the faith of the Messiah which is God in you.
2. Christianity supposedly demonstrating faith in Messiah with no works of Torah (practicing lawlessness).
Christianity today teaches their laws to govern their beliefs and every denomination has their own laws to govern it. What is the first thing these do when you want to join, do they not hand you a set of bylaws that you must believe and abide by in order to be a part of that enterprise? The teachings of Jesus is be as I am. Not many of these follow him in his way do they

Messiah didn't come to get rid of Torah but fulfill obedience and change priesthood from Levitical system to the priesthood of Melekitsedeq in which there is no need of a Temple with animal sacrifices.
Jesus taught that we are the temple of God, the place God resides, and that the kingdom of God doesnt come with observation but is within you. He taught obediance to God to be as He is and in His same image as he was in His same image not the law to govern. Even Jesus had to learn obediance to the Father.
Paul is grossly misunderstood in Christendom as in most of his Epistles he is addressing Judaizers and how that circumcision follows act of faith and not before faith (Acts 15; Gal 5:1-7). We don't keep Torah to be saved but salvation (faith in Messiah) comes first and then to back up faith the works of Torah is demonstrated. Abraham walked with YHWH from the age of 75 and it wasn't until 99 years he received circumcision as a seal of righteousness. Abraham was saved much before he was circumcised.
Yes Paul is grossly misunderstood in Christendom most follow his way as a sinner to be like him instead of Jesus who was without sin to be like him. Rituals such as baptisms, sacraments, circumcisions, sabbaths, are mans laws and mean noting at all about who you are supposed to be in the Father as Jesus was in the Father as Jesus commanded of us. In that these laws are fulfilled in you. God sent Jesus to show us His way for us and in that the laws changed from trying to follow them to living them. They are who we become not what we try and become.
The appointed times given to Israel (7 Muadym) was in reality their appointment with Messiah who is the goal of Torah. Without Messiah/Christ Torah is meaningless and only works of self-righteousness.
Exactly, and Christ means Gods anointed, Christ in you is Gods anointing in you no different at all from the anointing Jesus walked in. Not many are of Christ, they only use the name as a thing for worship instead of application and the manifestation of God manifest in you as He promises He will do if one will obey and receive Him as their own disposition as He commands of us.

I heard or read from someone a profound statement that the religious mind will come to me with the demands that I believe this and that. The spiritual mind will come to me with the demand that I line up my life with the standards of Jesus Christ to walk as he walks in it. Only in that is a Christian born. See Matt 3:16 even Jesus had to receive and learn this from the Father.
 

Anthony

Member
Actually following Jesus seems to be the problem for you. Paul was like any other religious preacher whos belief made his own laws to look noble toward man, he even stated that he used trickery to get people to follow him and that he had a thorn in his flesh which was his desire to be recognized for his abundance of revelation.

If you have to have Paul as your guide then so be it but as for me Jesus is sufficient in that he said that in that day I will have to ask him noting but go to the Father for myself and He will give it me and did give it me.

Paul made his own laws to govern his religion. He teaches that you are just a dirty ole sinner where Jesus taught to be the righteousness of God as he was the righteousness of God and without sin to be ye therefore perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect.

One of these was a sinner and teaches that you are a sinner as he was. This is the one that you follow as you say.

One of these was not a sinner and teaches me be without sin and teaches the One who takes away the sins of this world should be in you. This is the One that I follow as He says.
You are totally misinformed about Apostle Paul.

Paul was mostly writing to Judaizers, his previous brethren who were workers of Torah in self-righteousness without the faith in Messiah.
For Paul now it's a turnaround having found The Messiah in whom he was justified and then he justified his faith by the works of Torah.

Without faith in Christ, The Torah was ineffective and Paul is justifying The Torah through the faith in Christ. It's faith first which must be followed by the works of Torah and not the other way around those Judaizers who taught.

We must not follow extremities of Judaizers and Christianity.

Judaizers teach the works of Torah without faith in Messiah and Christianity teaches faith in Messiah without the need for the Torah which comes as the result of faith.

Only the Priesthood has changed from Levitical to Melekitsedeq with no need of a physical Temple and subsequent animal sacrifices.
 
Can you expound how these scriptures came into canon in the first place? Was it not by a King who authorized it and didn't even believe in God in the first place? And you say it was God breathed? You are only wading in the shallows of a deep ocean

Because of insufficient data I cannot comment for what Marcionite position is and really do not care. What matters to me is what is quoted of Jesus Christ. Opinions about him do not matter to me -- what matters to me is my life lining up with the standards of Jesus Christ to have his same Spirit, same mind the mind of Christ, to walk as He walks in it.

For me Jesus is the way the truth and the life we are supposed to live in the Father and no one, not one comes to the father least you do have that what Jesus had in the Father, you cant live it without it.

Jesus was sufficient in conveying to me that what the Father demands of me to have His same SPirit and be ye therefore perfect even as my Father in heaven is perfect as Jesus commanded of me.

You act as if you need the opinions of someone else such as Paul to teach you their laws that regulates their gods.

May I ask you why Jesus is not sufficient to deliver the way of God but Paul is?
There is plenty written on the history of the canon. You are referring to the old canard that Constantine, a Roman emperor, by the way, selected the canon. But let me turn it back to you: how do you know that the words recorded of Jesus in the gospels are actually the words of Jesus? How do you know that that same "King" didn't change those words?
 

Bob Carabbio

Active member
Sin

Sin is the transgression of Torah even today. The definition has not changed even today.

Jesus didn't nullify Torah but fulfilled obedience for us not to practice lawlessness.
SO why do YOU, assumedly as a Christian, continue to Sin just like everybody else??
 

Anthony

Member
And Paul taught that you are just a dirty ole sinner not worthy of the kingdom of God, Jesus taught just the opposit to be ye therefore perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect,

Jesus teaches to have the faith of the Messiah which is God in you.

Christianity today teaches their laws to govern their beliefs and every denomination has their own laws to govern it. What is the first thing these do when you want to join, do they not hand you a set of bylaws that you must believe and abide by in order to be a part of that enterprise? The teachings of Jesus is be as I am. Not many of these follow him in his way do they


Jesus taught that we are the temple of God, the place God resides, and that the kingdom of God doesnt come with observation but is within you. He taught obediance to God to be as He is and in His same image as he was in His same image not the law to govern. Even Jesus had to learn obediance to the Father.

Yes Paul is grossly misunderstood in Christendom most follow his way as a sinner to be like him instead of Jesus who was without sin to be like him. Rituals such as baptisms, sacraments, circumcisions, sabbaths, are mans laws and mean noting at all about who you are supposed to be in the Father as Jesus was in the Father as Jesus commanded of us. In that these laws are fulfilled in you. God sent Jesus to show us His way for us and in that the laws changed from trying to follow them to living them. They are who we become not what we try and become.

Exactly, and Christ means Gods anointed, Christ in you is Gods anointing in you no different at all from the anointing Jesus walked in. Not many are of Christ, they only use the name as a thing for worship instead of application and the manifestation of God manifest in you as He promises He will do if one will obey and receive Him as their own disposition as He commands of us.

I heard or read from someone a profound statement that the religious mind will come to me with the demands that I believe this and that. The spiritual mind will come to me with the demand that I line up my life with the standards of Jesus Christ to walk as he walks in it. Only in that is a Christian born. See Matt 3:16 even Jesus had to receive and learn this from the Father.
Certainly you don't understand the New Covenant in Christ. The Law is written in hearts and minds - no longer in tablets of Stony hearts. The letter kills but it's Spirit of Christ which gives life.

Torah written in hearts and minds of believers in Christ - for in Him Torah is Personified.

That even goes for interpretation of scriptures according to the Torah in hearts and minds. Those who interpret scripture without understanding of the Torah are in enmity with God. The New Testament is wholly based on Old Testament and not independent - even to the genealogy in Matthew and Luke.
 

Anthony

Member
I normally use the NASB or NIV.
You have to compare all available translations even reverse translations from Greek to Hebrew in order to understand broadly.

Scriptures as available to us in any language acts as unknown tongue until one interprets while others judge. One who prophesies edifies the congregation whereas one who speaks in tongues edifies himself. This principle still works without supernatural gifts that were in operation in the transition of recording scriptures for us in written form.

It goes even for the doctrine of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.

They aren't distinct Persons but revealed to us in operation of the Administration of the congregation of God.

In OT, YHWH was revealed to Israel in duality of powers - in upper and lower dimensions - invisible and visible.

The Speaker in both OT and NT is the same YHWH in lower dimension Who spoke as The Father as well as on behalf of The Father (YHWH and The Messenger of YHWH).

He happens to be The Son in NT.

The Son came to fulfill all promises He made as YHWH and in His visible form - in duality of powers. They appear to be distinct in powers and not in Persons.

In Hebrew perspective The WORD is the Medium of communication between invisible YHWH (Who can't be seen, heard or approached) and Israel.
His WORD is Personified in YHWH as The Messenger (in visible from). Many times they are interchanged in OT which shows they aren't distinct Persons but distinct powers depicting contrasting dimensions. The whole of creation is in lower dimension and that's the reason of Medium of The Messenger/Angel of YHWH.

The Father and The Son depict everlasting covenant relationship between YHWH and His Congregation (Israel as in OT). Israel is the firstborn son by means of a covenant made by YHWH - Exod 4:22, His 11:1, Matthew 2:15, Rom 8:29).

The manifestation of YHWH (visible form of YHWH) in flesh is The Son of God Who came to seal everlasting Covenant by giving true spiritual sonship to The Assembly/Congregation/church of God as The Father.

Phil 2:5-8 gives us the identity of Who The Son is. He was in the (visible) form of God equal in Deity to transcendent God - came in the form of a Servant, similitude of Men - in all humility to fulfill all promises He made as YHWH in OT conveyed through the Medium as The Messenger.
 

Gary Mac

Member
Certainly you don't understand the New Covenant in Christ. The Law is written in hearts and minds - no longer in tablets of Stony hearts. The letter kills but it's Spirit of Christ which gives life.
Sure I understand the new covenant just as Adam did and became like God to know this difference, just as Abraham did Moses did, and Jesus did in Matt 3:16 when he received the new covenant, and just as 120 in an upper room did. Jesus referred to this new covenant as born again to be like the Father of it instead of the laws man develops to govern a belief. ALl who has received Gods Spirit live the new, we are a new creature of God not of flesh.

And you are spot on, it is not written on stone or a page of paper but in the hearts of those who have received Him to be like Him and in His same image. perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Perhaps it isnt I who does not understand what the new covenant entails?
Torah written in hearts and minds of believers in Christ - for in Him Torah is Personified.
The torah is written on stone and a page of paper. Gods law as in be ye therefore perefct even as your Father inheaven is perfect, and the law of be one in the Father with He in you and you in Him as one, and walk as He walks in His same light, and the law of the same signs follow those who believe, is quiet a different covenant from those who try and follow the torah in which they will fail miserable instead of actually being like Him as He demands of us which one cannot fail at all if you are.
That even goes for interpretation of scriptures according to the Torah in hearts and minds. Those who interpret scripture without understanding of the Torah are in enmity with God. The New Testament is wholly based on Old Testament and not independent - even to the genealogy in Matthew and Luke.
Even Jesus had to receive from God His Spirit, mind, for all of heaven to be opend to him. That did not come from the torah or any other law, it comes only by Gods SPirit be your own. See Matt 3:16 this is how God opens it to any of us to be written in the minds and hearts of man. The law cannot give you that at all, it can only lead you to that pace where you accept Him as your own disposition. Not many follow the law to Him do they?
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