The First Vision

[Redeemed]

For anyone not familiar with "the first vision" allow me to fill in a few details. Keep in mind that this is from a Christian perspective and that I'm not trying to mock what's held in high regard in Mormonism. I'm going to attempt to put "the first vision" under a magnifying glass. To look at what was going on in Joseph Smith life at the time.

I'll be taking a look at the historical beginnings of Mormonism. I would love to hear the Mormon point of view and I promise I'll take a good look at it, study it out, think about and not react negatively toward it.

I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

I read on an official LDS website that Joseph Smith gave eight separate and different accounts of the first vision over his lifetime. They go on to explain that we should expect expect this and then proceed to lay out their work around that goes like this:

Some accounts leave out important details, but each provides a slightly different perspective on this remarkable event. The official account was chosen for that purpose both because it is the most complete of all the accounts and because it is the one Joseph wanted to publish to the world.

How convenient. If I had a vision of God and Jesus I can guarantee you whatever they told me I would remember verbatim. But I do understand the need for Joseph Smith to change his vision.

A. He needed to fit in with whatever was going on as time.

B. He had his own vision on how to make the first vision fit better into his deception. Of course that's just my speculation.

But I do know without a doubt that when someone tells a lie the more times they tell it the details change. A really good liar believes the lie there telling you. I'm not so sure Joseph Smith actually believed the whopper of the first vision. I'm sorry if that offends anyone. But when someone tells the truth the details don't change. Every good criminal detective knows that. They deal with it every day. There's a long list of giveaways that people do when they are lying.

I think that's why a lot of Christians can get so frustrated with Mormonism because it seems to be one big lie. And to see so many people around the world falling for it is just heartbreaking.

I understand that if you're into Mormonism you have to stand up for it and that's most certainly you're right. A lot of Americans have fought and died so you have that right. And a lot of them were Christians.

 

[Redeemed]

So what is it about Joseph Smith "first vision" that's so important to the Mormon church? In my digging deeper into them Mormonism I found that Joseph Smith has allegedly restored the true church on earth Bam what a guy. Mormonism teaches "there is no salvation outside the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints.

I'm not so sure you're going to get a lot of people here to go for that one. That's saying that only Mormonism teaches that salvation and that true salvation can't be found in the Christian religion.

Yeah right, I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid. After all the things I've seen God do in the lives of myself and many other Christians, the miracles that he's performed, I just cannot buy into that one. I have a witness and I have a testimony and they both show I have God in my life and guess what? I'm not a Mormon. I know hard to believe right?

Of course anyone wrapped up into Mormonism on this board will disagree. But that's okay I know the truth and it's not what is taught in Mormonism, that would be the lie. And I'm saying that with gentleness and love.

So in this alleged "first vision" of Joseph Smith, God the Father and Jesus Christ both appeared to Smith personally and, he claims, told him that all the Christian denominations were an abomination and that Smith should join none of them:​

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”​

But real historical proof exists that there was never an apostasy within the Christian Church, and Mormonism must be wrong in claiming alleged apostasy, obviously Mormonism is founded upon false premises. Now the workaround for one is everyone is against Mormonism so they lie and change history to make Mormonism look bad. No Mormonism can accomplish that all on its own they don't need any help.

Even if you fell for “the first vision” account, there's no way it could have been God who told Joseph Smith that all the creeds of Christianity were wrong and an abomination, because then He would deny and contradict Himself and be a liar.


So Who you going to believe Joseph Smith of God? Not a very hard decision is?​

Think this is going to ruffle feathers here? We'll see. Remember it's all done with gentleness and love. I hope I'm not being disrespectful to Mormonism I just don't agree with it.

 

[brotherofJared]

For anyone not familiar with "the first vision" allow me to fill in a few details. Keep in mind that this is from a Christian perspective and that I'm not trying to mock what's held in high regard in Mormonism.

When you say, this is "from a Christian perspective" you have already begun the mocking.

I'm going to attempt to put "the first vision" under a magnifying glass.

You mean through the colored lens of your beliefs. I just want to be clear on that just in case anyone believes your "magnifying glass" has any insights that any other mocking Christian might have.

I'll be taking a look at the historical beginnings of Mormonism.

Isn't that what the First Vision is? The historical beginnings of Mormonism?

But I do know without a doubt that when someone tells a lie the more times they tell it the details change.

And you don't think that happens when someone is telling the truth? Didn't Paul change his story about the vision he had adding details that weren't in the first version? For example, in Act 26, he includes "detail about the glorified Savior prophesying Paul’s work among the Gentiles." (from fairmormon) that he didn't include in any of the previous accounts. Perhaps he was lying. The details changed, right?

I think that's why a lot of Christians can get so frustrated with Mormonism because it seems to be one big lie.

I think that's why a lot of non-Mormons are so frustrated with modern and traditional Christian teachings. It seems to be one big lie.

See how that works? You can believe whatever you want, but that doesn't mean the other guy is lying. In order for proof of a lie to exist, one must prove that the person knew differently and intentionally mislead you. The fact is, none of us know for sure that the other is lying, but it sure seems that our critics are quick to jump on that bandwagon.

You may not believe the First Vision occurred, but you can't proof it didn't.

 

[brotherofJared]

Mormonism teaches "there is no salvation outside the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints.

False. There is no salvation outside of the gospel of Jesus Christ. We're the only church that has the authority to administer the ordinances of that gospel.

I'm not so sure you're going to get a lot of people here to go for that one.

We're not here to get anyone to go there. We're here to defend our beliefs. I don't think a single one of you all will go there for the simple reason that none of you are seeking truth. Why would you? You all think you have it and think you have it enough to condemn others who don't have it.

That's saying that only Mormonism teaches that salvation and that true salvation can't be found in the Christian religion.

Nope. Salvation can be found anywhere and by anyone in any religion, Muslim, Christian, Hindi, you name it. All one has to do is live the principles taught in the Bible and they will be saved. God has a plan for all his children where not one will be lost.

We do not claim exclusive rights to salvation through Christ. Our claim is the authority to perform the saving ordinances, namely, Baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Yeah right, I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid.

Maybe not Kool-aid, but what you are drinking isn't helping either. You're being fed a line of garbage information about what we believe and, I'm pretty sure that no matter what I say, you'll continue to believe it, so it might as well be Kool-Aid that you're drinking. It'll have the same effect.

But real historical proof exists that there was never an apostasy within the Christian Church

LOL. The real historical proof has a church that you all feel you needed to reform in the 15th Century and you think there was no apostasy? You had to fix it, but it wasn't broken?

Even if you fell for “the first vision” account, there's no way it could have been God who told Joseph Smith that all the creeds of Christianity were wrong and an abomination, because then He would deny and contradict Himself and be a liar.

This is some magnifying glass. LOL

Please show me where God said that all of these other religions besides Mormonism are true. Once we have that, then we have evidence that God contradicted himself and is a liar. I'm pretty sure you're going to go with the upon this rock and the gates of hell shall never prevail. I got news for you. The hell has not prevailed. The church has been restored and God did it through the Book of Mormon which signaled the latter-days.

 

[brotherofJared]

So, let's consider a couple of things. 1. Assuming the vision took place as Joseph Smith said it did. We have two beings that appear to be men, one introducing the other has his Son, Jesus Christ. That by itself destroys the theology of every other Christian church right there. It's inescapable. God the Father is a separate physical being from his Son, Jesus Christ, both in the image of men. Jesus didn't really need to say that your teachings were an abomination, it was apparent. All the churches that teach that God is a spirit and Jesus is a physical being, but they are the same being -- even though that doesn't make sense -- are wrong. They've been teaching lies. 2. Assuming it didn't take place and Joseph Smith made it up. We have the only viable explanation for the conundrum found in the Bible where it repeatedly indicates that God the Father and Jesus Christ are separate beings, but for some reason, everyone besides Joseph Smith got it wrong. Not one single protestant church or orthodox church considered the obvious problem. Instead, they worked around it.

Once the correct and idea of the Godhead was established, everything started to fall into place. Most of us can't understand why you all can't see it.

Either way, it works out. Joseph Smith was either a genius or he had a lot of help from original sources. It's apparent that he wasn't a genius.

 

[Redeemed]

So, let's consider a couple of things. 1. Assuming the vision took place as Joseph Smith said it did. We have two beings that appear to be men, one introducing the other has his Son, Jesus Christ. That by itself destroys the theology of every other Christian church right there. It's inescapable. God the Father is a separate physical being from his Son, Jesus Christ, both in the image of men. Jesus didn't really need to say that your teachings were an abomination, it was apparent. All the churches that teach that God is a spirit and Jesus is a physical being, but they are the same being -- even though that doesn't make sense -- are wrong. They've been teaching lies. 2. Assuming it didn't take place and Joseph Smith made it up. We have the only viable explanation for the conundrum found in the Bible where it repeatedly indicates that God the Father and Jesus Christ are separate beings, but for some reason, everyone besides Joseph Smith got it wrong. Not one single protestant church or orthodox church considered the obvious problem. Instead, they worked around it.

Once the correct and idea of the Godhead was established, everything started to fall into place. Most of us can't understand why you all can't see it.

Either way, it works out. Joseph Smith was either a genius or he had a lot of help from original sources. It's apparent that he wasn't a genius.

I really do appreciate you sharing that with me finally I'm starting to learn some stuff about Mormonn From a practicing Mormon. I can dig!

 

[Redeemed]

False. There is no salvation outside of the gospel of Jesus Christ. We're the only church that has the authority to administer the ordinances of that gospel.

We're not here to get anyone to go there. We're here to defend our beliefs. I don't think a single one of you all will go there for the simple reason that none of you are seeking truth. Why would you? You all think you have it and think you have it enough to condemn others who don't have it.

Nope. Salvation can be found anywhere and by anyone in any religion, Muslim, Christian, Hindi, you name it. All one has to do is live the principles taught in the Bible and they will be saved. God has a plan for all his children where not one will be lost.

We do not claim exclusive rights to salvation through Christ. Our claim is the authority to perform the saving ordinances, namely, Baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Maybe not Kool-aid, but what you are drinking isn't helping either. You're being fed a line of garbage information about what we believe and, I'm pretty sure that no matter what I say, you'll continue to believe it, so it might as well be Kool-Aid that you're drinking. It'll have the same effect.

LOL. The real historical proof has a church that you all feel you needed to reform in the 15th Century and you think there was no apostasy? You had to fix it, but it wasn't broken?

This is some magnifying glass. LOL

Please show me where God said that all of these other religions besides Mormonism are true. Once we have that, then we have evidence that God contradicted himself and is a liar. I'm pretty sure you're going to go with the upon this rock and the gates of hell shall never prevail. I got news for you. The hell has not prevailed. The church has been restored and God did it through the Book of Mormon which signaled the latter-days.

You know what amazes me is how two people can look at the same thing and see totally different things.

 

[Redeemed]

When you say, this is "from a Christian perspective" you have already begun the mocking.

Oh Please.

 

[brotherofJared]

You know what amazes me is how two people can look at the same thing and see totally different things.

Me too.

 

[Magdalena]

Me too.

And yet you and another mormon here don’t see mormonism the same way.

 

[Bonnie]

So what is it about Joseph Smith "first vision" that's so important to the Mormon church? In my digging deeper into them Mormonism I found that Joseph Smith has allegedly restored the true church on earth Bam what a guy. Mormonism teaches "there is no salvation outside the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints.

I'm not so sure you're going to get a lot of people here to go for that one. That's saying that only Mormonism teaches that salvation and that true salvation can't be found in the Christian religion.

Yeah right, I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid. After all the things I've seen God do in the lives of myself and many other Christians, the miracles that he's performed, I just cannot buy into that one. I have a witness and I have a testimony and they both show I have God in my life and guess what? I'm not a Mormon. I know hard to believe right?

Of course anyone wrapped up into Mormonism on this board will disagree. But that's okay I know the truth and it's not what is taught in Mormonism, that would be the lie. And I'm saying that with gentleness and love.

So in this alleged "first vision" of Joseph Smith, God the Father and Jesus Christ both appeared to Smith personally and, he claims, told him that all the Christian denominations were an abomination and that Smith should join none of them:



But real historical proof exists that there was never an apostasy within the Christian Church, and Mormonism must be wrong in claiming alleged apostasy, obviously Mormonism is founded upon false premises. Now the workaround for one is everyone is against Mormonism so they lie and change history to make Mormonism look bad. No Mormonism can accomplish that all on its own they don't need any help.

Even if you fell for “the first vision” account, there's no way it could have been God who told Joseph Smith that all the creeds of Christianity were wrong and an abomination, because then He would deny and contradict Himself and be a liar.


So Who you going to believe Joseph Smith of God? Not a very hard decision is?​

Think this is going to ruffle feathers here? We'll see. Remember it's all done with gentleness and love. I hope I'm not being disrespectful to Mormonism I just don't agree with it.

utlm.org has a lot of information about this. They even have a photocopy of the original, hand-written account of the first vision, penned by Smith himself. I will see if I can find the link to that. Meanwhile, you can read this:

Mormon Claims Answered Chapter One (utlm.org)

Ah, here it is:

Joseph Smith's Handwritten 1832 First Vision (utlm.org)

 

[Bonnie]

Oh Please.

To some, disagreeing with someone on here equals "mocking."

 

[Redeemed]

To some, disagreeing with someone on here equals "mocking."

Thanks Bonnie, yeah I really blew it yesterday. I have to learn to stay cool calm and collected. I don't know how you guys do it. I was told here not to give up. So it's a new day and I'm going to try to do better. No way let me rephrase that. I am going to do better. I will definitely get off my " mocking" high horse. I think I need to learn to filter my thoughts.

 

[dberrie2020]

But real historical proof exists that there was never an apostasy within the Christian Church, and Mormonism must be wrong in claiming alleged apostasy,​

If that is true--then why the need to form numerous denominations--with a different theology?

Ever heard of the Reformation?

Redeemed--there was only one denomination in the Biblical NT--which God accepted as His own. How many churches do you believe God has?

And what church claims heavenly revelation? Living, mortal apostles and prophets? Surely--the NT church had that?

D&C 110
1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachitestifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

The NT church was led by heavenly revelation. God's church always is. What revelation do the churches of today claim to receive? Think of it--God's church--without the living, mortal apostles and prophets--without heavenly revelation? If that makes sense to you--it certainly didn't to the NT church, IMO.

 

[dberrie2020]

Thanks Bonnie, yeah I really blew it yesterday. I have to learn to stay cool calm and collected. I don't know how you guys do it. I was told here not to give up. So it's a new day and I'm going to try to do better. No way let me rephrase that. I am going to do better. I will definitely get off my " mocking" high horse. I think I need to learn to filter my thoughts.

That makes a lot of sense to me.

I was thinking of the NT saints--and what they had to go through--and the kind of faith they had to possess. The Jews, being under the Mosaic Law for centuries--then--a new revelation from apostles that changed everything. Hoe does one get through that?

Well--it took a long time. A lot of faith. The breaking of a lot of tradition. New revelations. A different direction for many. But that's what God required of them.

 

[Redeemed]

The first vision is understandably held in high regard in Mormonism. But is it true? With all due respect, I can't help wondering why God himself would deliver that message to Mr. Smith in person wouldn't the burning bush suffice? Not only in person but God shows up according to Mormonism in a physical body. And again with all due respect, God has Jesus with Him in a physical body. So to me this just starts off so wrong. Can you see how many theological debates one could have just from this opening encounter.

For instance did Jesus have a pre-incarnate physical body? I'm sure if I posted that in apologetics I'd have a whole bandwagon full of people telling me yes Jesus had a pre-incarnate physical body. But then if you look at all the other dubious things Mormonism teaches about Jesus as far as I'm concerned it turns into one big huge mess. I could go on posting for days, again with all due respect to Mormonism about some of the extremely unusual ideas they teach. And guess what? I am so inspired to do just that. Things like who Jesus's mother was. Who Jesus's brother was. The list goes on and on.

Take for instance the golden plates. The first time I don't know how many years ago it was I heard about them in Mormonism my thoughts were, how could anyone possibly fall for that whopper. (Post on the golden plates coming soon)

That's why this stuff is so mind-boggling. I should understand how good Satan is at deceiving people and this really shouldn't come as a surprise to me. But to see someone actually defend this incredibly far out deception is extremely frustrating.

I think that may be part of the reason why Mormon missionaries often times receive such a negative welcome when they knock on that door.

Back to Joseph Smith and his first vision. So the story goes God gave him the vision in 1820. What I want to know is why did an angel have to revisit him in 1827 and give him a conflict in version of the official first vision story? See that right there makes me want to question Mormonism's authenticity? Again with all due respect to someone's beliefs it just seemed like one big con job.

Then if you look at the Smith family history and what they were about and how they made their Living Deceiving people and ripping them off. That's a true story as Joseph Smith has this on his record and he was arrested for it. See where I'm going with this? Things just look fishy right from the beginning. It's like the perfect storm brewing.

Then if you look at the geographical area and what was going on in that time which was a big Christian revival with a lot of church splits denominational differences and weird religious stuff happening. I know hard to believe right?That makes fertile ground for the con to transpire. If you are a good con man you would see that opportunity. These are just my thoughts. I'm gonna have to get it disclaimer put it in my signature that I'm not trying to bash Mormonism.

Referees aren't real popular unless they call everything in your favor, problem with that is referees calling as they see it. If you look at the historical evidence on Mormonism it's hard not to call foul.

This forum that we are on right now "Mormonism" is listed under Cults. To me that says as far as posting here that Cults are my starting point then "Mormonism". So as long as I'm respectful which I intend to be, I should have the right to treat Mormonism as a cult as long as I'm respectful and tell the truth in love. With that in mind I ask what is a cult? I'll start with the Bible and try to give an answer.

"I know that after my departure, savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them" (Acts 20:29-30).

Paul is speaking to the early church—and to us—about cults. They will and have come. They existed then and now. If we’re not extremely careful, they can draw us away from the truth.

Of course we know that her defender of Mormonism would just point that bight back at defenders of Christianity. And they most definitely have that right as I have the right to compile more and more and more and more evidence to show that Mormonism is false.

I don't know about you but me personally I do try to be extremely careful to keep my eyes on Jesus and if I allow someone or give them the opportunity to draw me away from the truth I get extremely upset. It must be the Irish in me, but it's so easy to snap and become aggressive. Definitely not the way Jesus wants me to behave.

But I do need to be armed with the truth, that's why it's important for me to recognize the nature of a cult. I have studied out cults for many many years so it's not new to me. I know one thing that all cults seem to be guilty of is that the one degree or another ...they all deny Jesus Christ.

I can hardly wait to get to that part in another post about Mormonism. The sad part about messing around with deity of Jesus Christ is where it leads you. Sadly (insert all due respect here), Mormonism... their teaching and principles will eventually leave a person unsaved, without a relationship with Jesus Christ and spending eternity in hell.

Once again I repeat that's the reason we post here and on the other forms. We want to see people come to Jesus and leave whatever cult they may happen to be in. Even though at times we might sound like we are frustrated with them the truth is we love them and are trying to Plant Some Seeds By telling the truth.

 

[Redeemed]

To some, disagreeing with someone on here equals "mocking."

I'm trying to clean up my mocking act. But as far as disagreeing goes If we didn't disagree we wouldn't be talking about this stuff. I thought about this earlier, you know that old saying about when we get together with our family (pre-pandemic) it warned you not to discuss religion or politics.

And of course we understand why not, because were going to disagree nd all hell breaks loose. But with family... at least with most families not all, we love each other we let those disagreements slide. Hopefully. In our house That's why we lock up the steak Knives.

I'm hoping that I can learn how to disagree gently (easier said than done for me) and in love. Jesus tells me to love my enemies and I kinda always turn a blind eye to that one. I'm thinking in heaven I'll be really good at because we won't have any enemies there. But here I definitely need to start working on it.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

So, let's consider a couple of things. 1. Assuming the vision took place as Joseph Smith said it did.

And I'm personally of the opinion that 'ol Joe DID see a vision up on the hill that REALLY GOT HIS ATTENTION.

But visions come from different SOURCES. And the nature of his vision makes it clear that the Holy Spirit wasn't the source, any more than it is for the appearances of the "Blessed Virgin thing" that leads Catholics astray.

Joseph Smith was either a genius or he had a lot of help from original sources. It's apparent that he wasn't a genius.

And the nature of his Revelation makes it clear that his "Original Source" was someone VERY DIFFERENT that the Holy Spirit, Jesus was VERY CLEAR that it's the HOLY SPIRIT that leads into all truth, not some apparition called "Moroni".

 

[Bonnie]

And I'm personally of the opinion that 'ol Joe DID see a vision up on the hill that REALLY GOT HIS ATTENTION.

But visions come from different SOURCES. And the nature of his vision makes it clear that the Holy Spirit wasn't the source, any more than it is for the appearances of the "Blessed Virgin thing" that leads Catholics astray.


And the nature of his Revelation makes it clear that his "Original Source" was someone VERY DIFFERENT that the Holy Spirit, Jesus was VERY CLEAR that it's the HOLY SPIRIT that leads into all truth, not some apparition called "Moroni".

You could be right, though I personally think that Smith made it all up. But either way, what he taught isn't from God, since he taught contrary to God's word--big time.

 

[Bonnie]

Thanks Bonnie, yeah I really blew it yesterday. I have to learn to stay cool calm and collected. I don't know how you guys do it. I was told here not to give up. So it's a new day and I'm going to try to do better. No way let me rephrase that. I am going to do better. I will definitely get off my " mocking" high horse. I think I need to learn to filter my thoughts.

Nah, you were not that bad at all. Some on here just see all disagreements about their faith as "mocking." Or as an attack. But it can be frustrating dealing with those who have blinded themselves to the truth about their church and its false teachings, so they can maintain their "testimony" of their church and founding prophet. They must do so at all cost--even at the cost of the truth. Sad....

Take a look at my Mormon debate tactics in my signature. You will find most of them used on here. The ad hom one is pretty rare, though. And if it exists, tends to be rather subtle.

Again, we need to remind ourselves that Mormons are not the enemy--Satan is, with his lies and perversions of the truth. It is Satan who is behind the false doctrines of the LDS church, not mere flesh and blood.

Let us know what you think of the "7 Reasons We Left the LDS Church" booklet, when you get it. I have that booklet.