The Foolishness and Arrogance of Mormonism

Magdalena

Well-known member
That's quite a claim. Could you share with us evidence where that methodology is found, as a teaching of the LDS church? Were you also told to get them in a chokehold?
You could ask all the former missionaries from Elder Didier’s missions. Or from missions where they held the baseball or basketball team baptisms. Kids got to play on the teams if they were baptized. I think South American missions did a lot of that, also Britain and Europe. Anything to get the numbers up. Statistics mean a lot in mormonism. There was intense pressure from church leaders to get more baptisms.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
You could ask all the former missionaries from Elder Didier’s missions. Or from missions where they held the baseball or basketball team baptisms. Kids got to play on the teams if they were baptized. I think South American missions did a lot of that, also Britain and Europe. Anything to get the numbers up. Statistics mean a lot in mormonism. There was intense pressure from church leaders to get more baptisms.

That's just a claim. Could you show where any of this was LDS church policy or doctrine? I really like the claim where one sticks their foot in the door.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
You made the claim. Again--where does one find any of your claims in LDS policy or doctrine? Cite, please.
It’s not my fault that your leaders were doing that, if it’s not in your official doctrine or policies. But they were doing the same kinds of things to raise baptism numbers around the world.

The baseball baptisms started with Henry D. Moyle…

“The controversial "baseball baptism" program was Moyle's idea to increase baptisms in order to fill the church meetinghouses. Missionaries would encourage young men to join sports leagues and used baptism as a prerequisite. Under this approach, large numbers of young men were baptized but very few were ever active in the church. The rush to baptize was accompanied with the establishment of baptism quotas for missionaries and memorized missionary discussions which were to be delivered verbatim to potential converts.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_D._Moyle

Baseball baptisms, and other sports and group baptisms were practiced all over the world… US, Britain, Japan, South America.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
It’s not my fault that your leaders were doing that, if it’s not in your official doctrine or policies. But they were doing the same kinds of things to raise baptism numbers around the world.

The baseball baptisms started with Henry D. Moyle…

“The controversial "baseball baptism" program was Moyle's idea to increase baptisms in order to fill the church meetinghouses. Missionaries would encourage young men to join sports leagues and used baptism as a prerequisite. Under this approach, large numbers of young men were baptized but very few were ever active in the church. The rush to baptize was accompanied with the establishment of baptism quotas for missionaries and memorized missionary discussions which were to be delivered verbatim to potential converts.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_D._Moyle

Baseball baptisms, and other sports and group baptisms were practiced all over the world… US, Britain, Japan, South America.
What a sad and sorry business...and it sounded like a business! Gotta get as many converts as possible to keep those tithing dollars coming in, to enrich their already bloated coffers. :rolleyes:
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
What a sad and sorry business...and it sounded like a business! Gotta get as many converts as possible to keep those tithing dollars coming in, to enrich their already bloated coffers. :rolleyes:
Money and status. It was important for them to be seen as the fastest growing religion in the world. That was their claim. As if that gave credibility to their claim of being Christ’s church.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
The baseball baptisms started with Henry D. Moyle…

“The controversial "baseball baptism" program was Moyle's idea to increase baptisms in order to fill the church meetinghouses. Missionaries would encourage young men to join sports leagues and used baptism as a prerequisite. Under this approach, large numbers of young men were baptized but very few were ever active in the church. The rush to baptize was accompanied with the establishment of baptism quotas for missionaries and memorized missionary discussions which were to be delivered verbatim to potential converts.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_D._Moyle

Baseball baptisms, and other sports and group baptisms were practiced all over the world… US, Britain, Japan, South America.

Now--the rest of the story:

"The controversial "baseball baptism" program was Moyle's idea to increase baptisms in order to fill the church meetinghouses. Missionaries would encourage young men to join sports leagues and used baptism as a prerequisite. Under this approach, large numbers of young men were baptized but very few were ever active in the church. ... The rest of the apostles were largely opposed to these changes, which led to Moyle being relieved of his responsibilities in the missionary department."

Interpreted--the LDS church never supported that program.

So--where are the cites of where you got your claims you made in the previous posts? The one about putting your foot in the door was special.

So special--I looked up a letter Elder Didier wrote to the missionary which led to his personal baptism. When Elder Didier went to Salt Lake to find the missionary who converted him, he found an apostate.

Elder Didier's letter to him was reminiscent of your tale about the foot in the door:


"You have opened the gate to many. Why, why do you close it for yourself? May I put my foot in the door, as you once did in mine? Reach out your hand while there is still time, and let us tell you that we love you. Your bishop is waiting for you; your home teachers are caring for you; your missionary companions do not forget you; but more than that, we, we need you. Come as you are—our arms are open. We’re waiting for you."

Is that where you got the "foot in the door" story?
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
Now--the rest of the story:

"The controversial "baseball baptism" program was Moyle's idea to increase baptisms in order to fill the church meetinghouses. Missionaries would encourage young men to join sports leagues and used baptism as a prerequisite. Under this approach, large numbers of young men were baptized but very few were ever active in the church. ... The rest of the apostles were largely opposed to these changes, which led to Moyle being relieved of his responsibilities in the missionary department."

Interpreted--the LDS church never supported that program.

So--where are the cites of where you got your claims you made in the previous posts? The one about putting your foot in the door was special.

So special--I looked up a letter Elder Didier wrote to the missionary which led to his personal baptism. When Elder Didier went to Salt Lake to find the missionary who converted him, he found an apostate.

Elder Didier's letter to him was reminiscent of your tale about the foot in the door:


"You have opened the gate to many. Why, why do you close it for yourself? May I put my foot in the door, as you once did in mine? Reach out your hand while there is still time, and let us tell you that we love you. Your bishop is waiting for you; your home teachers are caring for you; your missionary companions do not forget you; but more than that, we, we need you. Come as you are—our arms are open. We’re waiting for you."

Is that where you got the "foot in the door" story?
Didier was one of my mission presidents. It was him who told us to put our foot in the door.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
Now--the rest of the story:

"The controversial "baseball baptism" program was Moyle's idea to increase baptisms in order to fill the church meetinghouses. Missionaries would encourage young men to join sports leagues and used baptism as a prerequisite. Under this approach, large numbers of young men were baptized but very few were ever active in the church. ... The rest of the apostles were largely opposed to these changes, which led to Moyle being relieved of his responsibilities in the missionary department."

Interpreted--the LDS church never supported that program.

So--where are the cites of where you got your claims you made in the previous posts? The one about putting your foot in the door was special.

So special--I looked up a letter Elder Didier wrote to the missionary which led to his personal baptism. When Elder Didier went to Salt Lake to find the missionary who converted him, he found an apostate.

Elder Didier's letter to him was reminiscent of your tale about the foot in the door:


"You have opened the gate to many. Why, why do you close it for yourself? May I put my foot in the door, as you once did in mine? Reach out your hand while there is still time, and let us tell you that we love you. Your bishop is waiting for you; your home teachers are caring for you; your missionary companions do not forget you; but more than that, we, we need you. Come as you are—our arms are open. We’re waiting for you."

Is that where you got the "foot in the door" story?
Moyle was not the only proponent of sports and group baptisms. The church put intense pressure on mission presidents to increase their baptism numbers. So they tried a lot of things.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Moyle was not the only proponent of sports and group baptisms.

As the article stated--.. "The rest of the apostles were largely opposed to these changes, which led to Moyle being relieved of his responsibilities in the missionary department."

That doesn't indicate it was a church sponsored program.

The church put intense pressure on mission presidents to increase their baptism numbers. So they tried a lot of things.

Could you give us the evidence the church put "intense pressure" on mission presidents?
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
As the article stated--.. "The rest of the apostles were largely opposed to these changes, which led to Moyle being relieved of his responsibilities in the missionary department."

That doesn't indicate it was a church sponsored program.



Could you give us the evidence the church put "intense pressure" on mission presidents?
My exact thoughts.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
As the article stated--.. "The rest of the apostles were largely opposed to these changes, which led to Moyle being relieved of his responsibilities in the missionary department."

That doesn't indicate it was a church sponsored program.



Could you give us the evidence the church put "intense pressure" on mission presidents?
Yes, when Didier told us, among a lot of other things, to put our foot in the door so they couldn’t close it. He put intense pressure on the missionaries to increase their baptism numbers. Talking to and reading stories from missionaries around the world, it was the same thing. Their presidents were being pressured and they passed that pressure on to the missionaries. Their future in church leadership depended on their performance statistics.

Even if some general authorities didn’t like the baseball baptisms, they and the regional leaders kept pressuring the missions to produce more baptisms.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Yes, when Didier told us, among a lot of other things, to put our foot in the door so they couldn’t close it. He put intense pressure on the missionaries to increase their baptism numbers. Talking to and reading stories from missionaries around the world, it was the same thing. Their presidents were being pressured and they passed that pressure on to the missionaries. Their future in church leadership depended on their performance statistics.

Even if some general authorities didn’t like the baseball baptisms, they and the regional leaders kept pressuring the missions to produce more baptisms.

That's just a claim--where is the beef?

Cite, please. Give us information which states this is a LDS church policy or doctrine.
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
Why did the missionaries baptize unbelievers? That is what they did when they baptized my mother and two of my siblings
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
Teach us about the pre-incarnate Christ Jesus.

Wasn't he a created individual? A by-product...off spring... of the Father from Kolob and a celestial Mother? Brought into existence via this union.

Jesus who got exalted to godhood, became a god while his brother Lucifer didn't?
All beings are eternal in Mormormonism --- without beginning or end.
 

CrowCross

Super Member
All beings are eternal in Mormormonism --- without beginning or end.
Well, they may say it but their theology doesn't.

Did you ever notice how the mormons here NEVER discuss the pre-incarnate Christ and where he came from?

I have to wonder if they have been instructed not to talk of such things.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
Well, they may say it but their theology doesn't.

Did you ever notice how the mormons here NEVER discuss the pre-incarnate Christ and where he came from?

I have to wonder if they have been instructed not to talk of such things.
They are told not to “dwell on the mysteries.”
 
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