The Foolishness and Arrogance of Mormonism

[Janice Bower]

Mormon missionaries want to convince you to be Mormons. It makes no difference if you claim to have Christ, if you already have a church, or if you are new in the town or neighborhood.

Joseph Smith didn't like the existing churches, so he started a new one. i attemded his cult for years. It felt wrong and I didn't enjoy the Mormon arrogance about their church versus others. They contacted me one school year on March 16 and baptized me on April 3. In that short length of time I barely learned any of their teachings.

As you will notice here on CARM, they are clever at twisting the meaning of Bible verses. But I will skip that for now. Let me share some of Joseph Smith's story:






EDITED--TOO MANY LINKS. ONLY TWO PER POST ALLOWED, EXCEPT TO CARM ARTICLES OR OTHER CARM POSTS. PLEASE REPOST AND TAKE OUT ALL BUT TWO LINKS. THANK YOU--Moderator




If the missionaries can convince you of verses 18 and 19, you've taken the bait.

Verses 18 and 19 form the basis of Mormonism and are strongly embraced by Mormons. "There is no salvation outside the Mormon church."

I was easy prey. My parents divorced when I was almost nine and my mother had left her third husband a little over a year before. He was an alcoholic. I thought it was wonderful that Mormons forbad alcohol consumption. Neither of my parents was a Christian nor were their parents. What did I know about the Bible? Very, very little.

 

[Janice Bower]

The following month the missionaries baptized my older sister, my mother, and my 8-yr- old brother. None of them prayed or owned a Book of Mormon or believed the Mormon church was true. The missionary said it didn't matter. My baby brother had been baptized Catholic to please my ex-stepfather's mother. In June we moved to another state.

 

[brotherofJared]

Mormon missionaries want to convince you to be Mormons.

That seems normal. It would be abnormal if Mormon missionaries what to convince you to become an evangelical.

It makes no difference if you claim to have Christ, if you already have a church, or if you are new in the town or neighborhood.

If you're not interested, just say no thanks. They have a message. They aren't there to argue and, AFAIK, they don't unless you all do. Like a fisherman cannot make the fish take the bait. They don't jump in the water and argue with the fish that they must take it. All our missionaries do is offer the message and if you think there's something there, set up another meeting.

 

[Magdalena]

That seems normal. It would be abnormal if Mormon missionaries what to convince you to become an evangelical.

If you're not interested, just say no thanks. They have a message. They aren't there to argue and, AFAIK, they don't unless you all do. Like a fisherman cannot make the fish take the bait. They don't jump in the water and argue with the fish that they must take it. All our missionaries do is offer the message and if you think there's something there, set up another meeting.

Not really. We were told as missionaries to put our foot in the door, and ask them ambiguous questions to try to back them into corners where they’d have to say yes. Like “If you knew that Christ had restored His church on earth, would you want to be part of it?” They say “I guess so.” Then you set a baptismal date to work towards in the next couple of weeks.

 

[Bonnie]

Not really. We were told as missionaries to put our foot in the door, and ask them ambiguous questions to try to back them into corners where they’d have to say yes. Like “If you knew that Christ had restored His church on earth, would you want to be part of it?” They say “I guess so.” Then you set a baptismal date to work towards in the next couple of weeks.

And the missionaries STILL LIE, when they tell people who do let them in to listen to them "We aren't here to convert you..." That is EXACTLY why they are there! Gotta meet their quota of converts, get them baptized, so the LDS church can start raking in their tithe money to add to its already bloated coffers....

 

[Bonnie]

That seems normal. It would be abnormal if Mormon missionaries what to convince you to become an evangelical.

If you're not interested, just say no thanks. They have a message. They aren't there to argue and, AFAIK, they don't unless you all do. Like a fisherman cannot make the fish take the bait. They don't jump in the water and argue with the fish that they must take it. All our missionaries do is offer the message and if you think there's something there, set up another meeting.

But they say "We aren't here to convert you...." That is a lie--isn't it?

 

[dberrie2020]

Not really. We were told as missionaries to put our foot in the door, ....

That's quite a claim. Could you share with us evidence where that methodology is found, as a teaching of the LDS church? Were you also told to get them in a chokehold?

 

[dberrie2020]

But they say "We aren't here to convert you...." That is a lie--isn't it?

The LDS have a doctrine that mankind-- do not, nor can--"convert"anyone. That isn't man's job.

 

[Janice Bower]

The LDS have a doctrine that mankind-- do not, nor can--"convert"anyone. That isn't man's job.

Please give us a reference for this doctrine.

Why are they baptizing non-members? My mother, my older sister, and my 8-year-old brother didn't believe in Christ. Why do they tell missionaries to "bring them to Christ?"

 

[Janice Bower]

“How are they to become saviors on Mount Zion? By building their temples, erecting their baptismal fonts, and going forth and receiving all the ordinances … in behalf of all their progenitors who are dead.”

Chapter 41: Becoming Saviors on Mount Zion

Chapter 41: Becoming Saviors on Mount Zion

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

 

[dberrie2020]

Please give us a reference for this doctrine.

Why are they baptizing non-members? My mother, my older sister, and my 8-year-old brother didn't believe in Christ. Why do they tell missionaries to "bring them to Christ?"

How are you relating that to my post?

Again--the LDS do not believe they convert anyone. Bonnie's post was unsupportable, IMO.

 

[Janice Bower]

How are you relating that to my post?

Again--the LDS do not believe they convert anyone. Bonnie's post was unsupportable, IMO.

Unable to explain baptizing unbelievers?

"Remind the children that Heavenly Father is wise. He knows that we must learn what is right and wrong. When we have grown enough and learned enough about right and wrong, we become accountable for what we do. Being accountable means that we must take responsibility for what we do wrong, and we are blessed for what we do right.

• At what age do we begin to be accountable to Heavenly Father for what we do? (Eight.)
  Explain that because Heavenly Father knows we are old enough to be responsible for our actions, he allows something important to take place when we are eight.
• What important event happens when we are eight? (We are baptized; see Doctrine and Covenants 68:27.) "

Lesson 27: The Age of Accountability

Lesson 27: The Age of Accountability-Primary 3

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

No one taught my eight-year-old brother. He didn't learn Mormonism.

 

[dberrie2020]

Unable to explain baptizing unbelievers?

"Remind the children that Heavenly Father is wise. He knows that we must learn what is right and wrong. When we have grown enough and learned enough about right and wrong, we become accountable for what we do. Being accountable means that we must take responsibility for what we do wrong, and we are blessed for what we do right.

• At what age do we begin to be accountable to Heavenly Father for what we do? (Eight.)
  Explain that because Heavenly Father knows we are old enough to be responsible for our actions, he allows something important to take place when we are eight.
• What important event happens when we are eight? (We are baptized; see Doctrine and Covenants 68:27.) "

Lesson 27: The Age of Accountability

Lesson 27: The Age of Accountability-Primary 3

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

No one taught my eight-year-old brother. He didn't learn Mormonism.

Again--how are you relating any on this to my post?

I countered Bonnie's post where she claims the LDS propose they convert. That just isn't true--as the LDS do not believe they have the power to convert anyone. That is the power presented by God Himself--not man.

The servants of God can bring one to Christ, but not convert one in Christ. Our jobs as missionaries, is to teach about Christ--and let the Spirit work with that person. We, as humans--can bring a message to the mind--but God has to work it through their hearts, in order for conversion to take place.

 

[CrowCross]

Our jobs as missionaries, is to teach about Christ

Teach us about the pre-incarnate Christ Jesus.

Wasn't he a created individual? A by-product...off spring... of the Father from Kolob and a celestial Mother? Brought into existence via this union.

Jesus who got exalted to godhood, became a god while his brother Lucifer didn't?

 

[dberrie2020]

Jesus who got exalted to godhood, became a god while his brother Lucifer didn't?

You might want to ask Paul about that:

2 Corinthians 4:4---New Living Translation
4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

 

[Elijah the Tishbite]

That seems normal. It would be abnormal if Mormon missionaries what to convince you to become an evangelical.

If you're not interested, just say no thanks. They have a message. They aren't there to argue and, AFAIK, they don't unless you all do. Like a fisherman cannot make the fish take the bait. They don't jump in the water and argue with the fish that they must take it. All our missionaries do is offer the message and if you think there's something there, set up another meeting.

What does D&C 71:7 command Mormons, or are Missionaries exempt
​

7 Wherefore, confound your enemies; call upon them to meet you both in public and in private; and inasmuch as ye are faithful their shame shall be made manifest.

 

[Aaron32]

The following month the missionaries baptized my older sister, my mother, and my 8-yr- old brother. None of them prayed or owned a Book of Mormon or believed the Mormon church was true. The missionary said it didn't matter.

Then why did they get baptized? They just willfully do whatever people tell them? That's very interesting.
In any case, giving full plausibility of what you say is true, the missionary was wrong and doesn't represent the entire Church.

Church Handbook section 31.2.3.2
In the interview, the missionary follows the guidance of the Spirit to determine whether the person meets the qualifications described in Doctrine and Covenants 20:37 (see also Mosiah 18:8–10; Moroni 6:1–4). The missionary uses the following questions. He adapts them to the person’s age, maturity, and circumstance.

D&C 20:37
37 And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church

Mosiah 18
8 And it came to pass that he said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are desirous to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light;
9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—
10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?

Moroni 6
1 And now I speak concerning baptism. Behold, elders, priests, and teachers were baptized; and they were not baptized save they brought forth fruit meet that they were worthy of it.
2 Neither did they receive any unto baptism save they came forth with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and witnessed unto the church that they truly repented of all their sins.
3 And none were received unto baptism save they took upon them the name of Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end.
4 And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost, they were numbered among the people of the church of Christ; and their names were taken, that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ, who was the author and the finisher of their faith.

The interesting thing is why does this matter to you? Think about it. If the baptism is meaningless and worthless, why does it consume so much of your posts? If I said let's go to a swimming pool, and I dunk you under the water on a random Saturday, would you then mark that point in history as something of significance?
I've purchased products and services based on false advertising before. I don't dwell on those purchases.I move on. My guess is that your baptism meant more to you than you claim, or else you wouldn't speak about it so much.

My baby brother had been baptized Catholic to please my ex-stepfather's mother. In June we moved to another state.

Edit per mod

 

[CrowCross]

You might want to ask Paul about that:

2 Corinthians 4:4---New Living Translation
4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

What's you point? I failed to see it.

You skipped right over this part....
Teach us about the pre-incarnate Christ Jesus.

Wasn't he a created individual? A by-product...off spring... of the Father from Kolob and a celestial Mother? Brought into existence via this union.

 

[Janice Bower]

Then why did they get baptized? They just willfully do whatever people tell them? That's very interesting.
In any case, giving full plausibility of what you say is true, the missionary was wrong and doesn't represent the entire Church.

It may have been standard procedure. If not, the mission president or bishop of the ward could have objected. If the missionary was wrong did his companion not have a brain to ask the bishop or mission president.? Your missionaries should know at least that much. I'm not arguing for or against infant baptism. Mormonism thinks an 8-year-old knows whether or not to follow Mormonism. Pardon me, IMO, that is stupid! How can teens and adults know whether or not to get baptized? How could someone like myself without biblical knowledge at that time, know if Mormonism was true?

Thy word have I hid in in mine heart... March 16-April 3 is not enough time to know the difference betrween God's word and Joseph Smith's.

Church Handbook section 31.2.3.2
In the interview, the missionary follows the guidance of the Spirit to determine whether the person meets the qualifications described in Doctrine and Covenants 20:37 (see also Mosiah 18:8–10; Moroni 6:1–4). The missionary uses the following questions. He adapts them to the person’s age, maturity, and circumstance.

D&C 20:37
37 And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church

Mosiah 18
8 And it came to pass that he said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are desirous to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light;
9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—
10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?

Moroni 6
1 And now I speak concerning baptism. Behold, elders, priests, and teachers were baptized; and they were not baptized save they brought forth fruit meet that they were worthy of it.
2 Neither did they receive any unto baptism save they came forth with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and witnessed unto the church that they truly repented of all their sins.
3 And none were received unto baptism save they took upon them the name of Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end.
4 And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost, they were numbered among the people of the church of Christ; and their names were taken, that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ, who was the author and the finisher of their faith.

The interesting thing is why does this matter to you? Think about it. If the baptism is meaningless and worthless, why does it consume so much of your posts? If I said let's go to a swimming pool, and I dunk you under the water on a random Saturday, would you then mark that point in history as something of significance?
I've purchased products and services based on false advertising before. I don't dwell on those purchases.I move on. My guess is that your baptism meant more to you than you claim, or else you wouldn't speak about it so much.


Sounds like you have a dysfunctional family. TMI, maybe?

It matters to me for several reasons.

1. It is morally wrong.

2. Baptism isn't meaningless and worthless. You like to pretend that you know Christianity and the minds of non-Mormons. You don't.

3. Stop judging my family. You never met them. I haven't met yours. Neither of us should be judging the other's family.

4. Would you dunk me in an outdoor pool while wearing your temple garments? Would you claim authority to baptize me?

 

[Janice Bower]

The servants of God can bring one to Christ, but not convert one in Christ. Our jobs as missionaries, is to teach about Christ--and let the Spirit work with that person. We, as humans--can bring a message to the mind--but God has to work it through their hearts, in order for conversion to take place.

The missionaries nor any other person brings anyone to Christ.