The foundation of all salvation.

Carbon

Well-known member
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. 1 John 5:12.

It is impossible for man to engage in any saving good unless there is a living bond between them and Him who declared:
Apart from Me you can do nothing. John 15:5.

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. Romans 8:9.

This goodness that some people claim by faith of the natural man is unbiblical and nonsense.

It is the mystical union through regeneration, which gives the gift of faith, and maintains faith, hope and love. it is out of the fullness of Christ that we even receive grace for grace.
For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. John 1:16.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Consider Lydia.

A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. Acts 16:14

This happened while she was hearing the preaching of Paul. In the course of this hearing the Lord at a given moment, opened her heart.
Then, the result of her hearing and of the opening of her heart by the Lord was the obedience of faith on Lydia’s part.

In this same way, day by day, the Lord brings people into the Kingdom.
 
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TomFL

Guest
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. 1 John 5:12.

It is impossible for man to engage in any saving good unless there is a living bond between them and Him who declared:
Apart from Me you can do nothing. John 15:5.

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. Romans 8:9.

This goodness that some people claim by faith of the natural man is unbiblical and nonsense.

It is the mystical union through regeneration, which gives the gift of faith, and maintains faith, hope and love. it is out of the fullness of Christ that we even receive grace for grace.
For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. John 1:16.
Faith precedes life

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

faith precedes becoming a child of God

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Faith precedes quickening

Colossians 2:12-13 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Ephesians 2:5-8 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith in the gospel precedes being begotten (born again)

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
Faith precedes life

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

faith precedes becoming a child of God

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Faith precedes quickening

Colossians 2:12-13 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Ephesians 2:5-8 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith in the gospel precedes being begotten (born again)

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
faith no more precedes your physical life on earth than it did your spiritual life on earth. life precedes faith in both cases. John 3, Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2 confirm this is true.

hope this helps !!!
 
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TomFL

Guest
faith no more precedes your physical life on earth than it did your spiritual life on earth. life precedes faith in both cases. John 3, Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2 confirm this is true.

hope this helps !!!
Afraid not

the scriptures do not support you

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

believe that you may have life

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

come to Jesus in faith that you might live

In both cases faith precedes life

and it is difficult to see how you can deny it

Ephesians 2:5-8 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

being quicken is equated with salvation - verse 5

We know from verse 8 salvation is through faith

therefore faith precedes salvation which is accomplished by quickening

Why you quote that verse is a mystery as it clearly does not support you

same with

Colossians 2:12-13 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

to be raised is to be spiritually made alive

it is through faith

again a another verse clearly opposed to your view

four verses all contrary to your beliefs
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
The way I see it, we do need the Holy Spirit to produce faith, but if you had regeneration before faith, you wouldn't need faith to be regenerated, faith would be unrelated to regeneration, and it would have nothing do with actually becoming saved. Surely we can see that faith is connected to becoming saved, so the only conclusion is that faith is instrumental towards and not a product of regeneration.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
The way I see it, we do need the Holy Spirit to produce faith, but if you had regeneration before faith, you wouldn't need faith to be regenerated, faith would be unrelated to regeneration, and it would have nothing do with actually becoming saved. Surely we can see that faith is connected to becoming saved, so the only conclusion is that faith is instrumental towards and not a product of regeneration.
Regeneration gives us Life, and Life lets us have Faith. Faith is the Gift of God because Life is the Gift of God...

As a non-Calvinist, you will want to talk about whether Calvinists believe Regeneration and Faith are two distinct Gifts of God. I'm sure some Calvinists will say they are indeed two different Gifts...
 
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Carbon

Well-known member
The way I see it, we do need the Holy Spirit to produce faith,
so you believe man is capable of deciding to have faith?

that wouldn't make any sense in any situation.

but if you had regeneration before faith, you wouldn't need faith to be regenerated,
Faith is not the cause of regeneration. Especially a faith they you decide to have.

think about it. You hear the gospel and then have to make a decision, a decision of whether or not you want to have faith. It’s plain to see this

faith would be unrelated to regeneration, and it would have nothing do with actually becoming saved.
Well it has nothing to do with regeneration.
Surely we can see that faith is connected to becoming saved, so the only conclusion is that faith is instrumental towards and not a product of regeneration.
Of course faith is connected, it’s man part. After regeneration of course.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
The way I see it, we do need the Holy Spirit to produce faith, but if you had regeneration before faith, you wouldn't need faith to be regenerated, faith would be unrelated to regeneration, and it would have nothing do with actually becoming saved. Surely we can see that faith is connected to becoming saved, so the only conclusion is that faith is instrumental towards and not a product of regeneration.

That is 100% rationalization, and NONE of that is found in the Bible.
So those who hold to "Sola Scriptura" are duty-bound to reject it as nonsense.
 
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TomFL

Guest
Regeneration gives us Life, and Life lets us have Faith. Faith is the Gift of God because Life is the Gift of God...

As a non-Calvinist, you will want to talk about whether Calvinists believe Regeneration and Faith are two distinct Gifts of God. I'm sure some Calvinists will say they are indeed two different Gifts...
You have it backwards

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

faith and then life

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

come to Christ in faith then receive life
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
You have it backwards

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

faith and then life

That's not referring to "regeneration".
It's referring to "(eternal) life".
I know you want to conflate the two, but your "proof-texts" will NEVER be convincing, since you refuse to recognize the distinction between the two concepts:

regeneration --> faith --> eternal life.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

come to Christ in faith then receive life

Again, that isn't referring to regeneration, it's referring to "(eternal) life".


Further, you keep IGNORING the fact that "faith" is a GIFT of God:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

[Yes, I know you want to twist this verse, and claim that the gift is "salvation", not "faith", but you do that only because you refuse to accept the truth. And your twisting doesn't even work, because even if salvation is a gift, then since salvation comes from faith, then FAITH must be the gift as well. Otherwise you are denying that salvation is a gift, and instead teaching that salvation is a "quid pro quo", and is an exchange for your faith.]


Phil. 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,

Rom. 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

2Pet. 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

1Cor. 4:7 For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?

[Do you have faith, without first having received it? If you do, then you are rejecting this verse.]


And yes, I know you will simply respond with the same old nonsense you've responded with ten million times already, since you refuse to "agree to disagree", and since you are compelled to have the last word, and you think being the last person to respond makes you "right".

Well, consider yourself refuted.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
That is 100% rationalization, and NONE of that is found in the Bible.
So those who hold to "Sola Scriptura" are duty-bound to reject it as nonsense.

Isn't some form of logic necessary to process all ideas, and if so, why is "rationalization" a bad thing? Without using a from of logic the words in the Bible cannot have any meaning or sense to them...

And also, how come when Calvinists say "free will necessarily logically means that X and Y must be true," your standard is not in the same way applied to those statements, condemning them.

This objection does not make sense to me.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
You have it backwards

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

faith and then life

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

come to Christ in faith then receive life
There is a reason I don't have it backwards; IE the Temporal Order. In the Temporal Order, every aspect of the moment of Justification Is First. In Temporal Order, Faith is first. In Temporal Order, Regeneration is first. Etc. The Hermeneutic is that when a Verse says Faith causes Life, that's a Temporal explanation which doesn't have to be a Logical explanation; it can be a Logical Order, but Temporally speaking there is a simultaneous Order. Faith causes Regeneration to be classified as Eternal Life...
 
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TomFL

Guest
That is 100% rationalization, and NONE of that is found in the Bible.
So those who hold to "Sola Scriptura" are duty-bound to reject it as nonsense.
His conclusion is nevertheless correct

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.


Ephesians 2:5-8 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Colossians 2:12-13 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
That's not referring to "regeneration".
It's referring to "(eternal) life".

I know you want to conflate the two, but your "proof-texts" will NEVER be convincing, since you refuse to recognize the distinction between the two concepts:

regeneration --> faith --> eternal life.



Again, that isn't referring to regeneration, it's referring to "(eternal) life".


Further, you keep IGNORING the fact that "faith" is a GIFT of God:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

[Yes, I know you want to twist this verse, and claim that the gift is "salvation", not "faith", but you do that only because you refuse to accept the truth. And your twisting doesn't even work, because even if salvation is a gift, then since salvation comes from faith, then FAITH must be the gift as well. Otherwise you are denying that salvation is a gift, and instead teaching that salvation is a "quid pro quo", and is an exchange for your faith.]


Phil. 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,

Rom. 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

2Pet. 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

1Cor. 4:7 For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?

[Do you have faith, without first having received it? If you do, then you are rejecting this verse.]


And yes, I know you will simply respond with the same old nonsense you've responded with ten million times already, since you refuse to "agree to disagree", and since you are compelled to have the last word, and you think being the last person to respond makes you "right".

Well, consider yourself refuted.
You beat me to it...
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Isn't some form of logic necessary to process all ideas, and if so, why is "rationalization" a bad thing? Without using a from of logic the words in the Bible cannot have any meaning or sense to them...

Again, you dodge the facts that NONE of the statements you made is supported from the Bible. If they were, you would have quoted the verse.

And "rationalization" is NOT the same as "formal logic".

Rationalization in the form that you did involves inventing and assuming premises that you haven't substantiated, and then forming conclusions which don't follow according to the rules of rigorous logic.

The methodology you are using can be used to support ANY false theology, so it is hopelessly unreliable.

And also, how come when Calvinists say "free will necessarily logically means that X and Y must be true," your standard is not in the same way applied to those statements, condemning them.

That's logic, not rationalization.
And besides, there are supporting Scriptures which refute "free will". The logical support is gravy, but the potatoes of Scripture still remain.

This objection does not make sense to me.

That's not my problem.
Maybe you should study formal logic, as I have.
 
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TomFL

Guest
There is a reason I don't have it backwards; IE the Temporal Order. In the Temporal Order, every aspect of the moment of Justification Is First. In Temporal Order, Faith is first. In Temporal Order, Regeneration is first. Etc. The Hermeneutic is that when a Verse says Faith causes Life, that's a Temporal explanation which doesn't have to be a Logical explanation; it can be a Logical Order, but Temporally speaking there is a simultaneous Order. Faith causes Regeneration to be classified as Eternal Life...
And there is a reason why yoiu do

Logically faith is first

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

faith then life

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

come to Christ (in faith) then receive life
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
And there is a reason why yoiu do

Logically faith is first

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

faith then life

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

come to Christ (in faith) then receive life
Not when you look at both sides as being One Temporal Order; right?

Do you believe a simultaneous Temporal Order exists?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
His conclusion is nevertheless correct

False.
Again.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Here is what he wrote:

"The way I see it, we do need the Holy Spirit to produce faith, but if you had regeneration before faith, you wouldn't need faith to be regenerated, faith would be unrelated to regeneration, and it would have nothing do with actually becoming saved. Surely we can see that faith is connected to becoming saved, so the only conclusion is that faith is instrumental towards and not a product of regeneration."

And you can't get that from John 20:31.
Sorry.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Here is what he wrote:

"The way I see it, we do need the Holy Spirit to produce faith, but if you had regeneration before faith, you wouldn't need faith to be regenerated, faith would be unrelated to regeneration, and it would have nothing do with actually becoming saved. Surely we can see that faith is connected to becoming saved, so the only conclusion is that faith is instrumental towards and not a product of regeneration."

And John 5:40 simply doesn't teach that.
Sorry.

Ephesians 2:5-8 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Here is what he wrote:

"The way I see it, we do need the Holy Spirit to produce faith, but if you had regeneration before faith, you wouldn't need faith to be regenerated, faith would be unrelated to regeneration, and it would have nothing do with actually becoming saved. Surely we can see that faith is connected to becoming saved, so the only conclusion is that faith is instrumental towards and not a product of regeneration."

And you can't get that from Eph. 2:5-8.
Sorry.

Colossians 2:12-13 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Here is what he wrote:

"The way I see it, we do need the Holy Spirit to produce faith, but if you had regeneration before faith, you wouldn't need faith to be regenerated, faith would be unrelated to regeneration, and it would have nothing do with actually becoming saved. Surely we can see that faith is connected to becoming saved, so the only conclusion is that faith is instrumental towards and not a product of regeneration."

And Col. 2:12-13 simply doesn't say that.
Sorry.
 
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TomFL

Guest
You beat me to it...
That's not referring to "regeneration".
It's referring to "(eternal) life".

I know you want to conflate the two, but your "proof-texts" will NEVER be convincing, since you refuse to recognize the distinction between the two concepts:

regeneration --> faith --> eternal life.



Again, that isn't referring to regeneration, it's referring to "(eternal) life".


Further, you keep IGNORING the fact that "faith" is a GIFT of God:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

[Yes, I know you want to twist this verse, and claim that the gift is "salvation", not "faith", but you do that only because you refuse to accept the truth. And your twisting doesn't even work, because even if salvation is a gift, then since salvation comes from faith, then FAITH must be the gift as well. Otherwise you are denying that salvation is a gift, and instead teaching that salvation is a "quid pro quo", and is an exchange for your faith.]


Phil. 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,

Rom. 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

2Pet. 1:1
Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

1Cor. 4:7 For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?

[Do you have faith, without first having received it? If you do, then you are rejecting this verse.]


And yes, I know you will simply respond with the same old nonsense you've responded with ten million times already, since you refuse to "agree to disagree", and since you are compelled to have the last word, and you think being the last person to respond makes you "right".

Well, consider yourself refuted.

Afraid not

Quickening (being made alive) speaks of regeneration

Colossians 2:12-13 (NIV2011)
12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

raised - spiritually made alive with Christ is through faith

Ephesians 2:5-8 (NIV2011)
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

being made alive when dead is referred to as being saved verse 5

which is through faith verse 8

Your position requires one to have life before they get life

But in fact regeneration provides life that is eternal

as even Carm affirms

Regeneration

It is the act of God whereby He renews the spiritual condition of a sinner. It is a spiritual change brought about by the work of the Holy Spirit so that the person then possesses new life–eternal life.

so consider yourself refuted

BTW

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

1 Peter 1:23-25 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

it is through faith in the gospel one is born again

unbelief does not prosper

Hebrews 4:2 (KJV)
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
 
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