The foundation of all salvation.

Joe

Well-known member
other than what I stated no
Do you realize the bullet points describe salvation that is entirely by God? We were dead and He made us alive. We were without faith, in unbelief towards the Gospel, but He worked faith within our heart by engaging with us and opening our understanding to the realities of Christ through the Gospel. Everything, including our faith is 100% the result of Him. Our will was not violated at any time. He changed our heart and with that we believed, and our will acted according to that belief.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Do you realize the bullet points describe salvation that is entirely by God? We were dead and He made us alive. We were without faith, in unbelief towards the Gospel, but He worked faith within our heart by engaging with us and opening our understanding to the realities of Christ through the Gospel. Everything, including our faith is 100% the result of Him. Our will was not violated at any time. He changed our heart and with that we believed, and our will acted according to that belief.
It is contrary to the majority of the Bible to suggest that people have no ability to understand truth. have you ever read that there are people who make the decision not to come to the light, not because they are ignorant, but because they know they are sinners and they do not want their sin exposed. That is a clear picture of unregenerate people understanding truth a choosing a path contrary to it. John 3:20
 

fltom

Well-known member
Do you realize the bullet points describe salvation that is entirely by God? We were dead and He made us alive. We were without faith, in unbelief towards the Gospel, but He worked faith within our heart by engaging with us and opening our understanding to the realities of Christ through the Gospel. Everything, including our faith is 100% the result of Him. Our will was not violated at any time. He changed our heart and with that we believed, and our will acted according to that belief.
Salvation is entirely of God

faith and salvation however are not the same thing

God did/does take the initiative; Men however must respond in faith. God does not do that for him
 

Joe

Well-known member
Salvation is entirely of God

faith and salvation however are not the same thing

God did/does take the initiative; Men however must respond in faith. God does not do that for him
I agree

The bible depicts different people and God's involvement in bringing them to saving faith.
  • For the eunuch in Acts 8:26-39, the Spirit of the Lord directed Philip to go over the chariot that the eunuch was riding. Philip obeyed and then engaged with the eunuch who was already reading out of Isaiah. Philip preached to him the Gospel and the eunuch believed in Christ.
  • For Saul of Tarsus, he had heard the message many times over and completely was unbelieving, even to the point of murdering and persecuting believers. The involvement of God was to personally reveal Himself that changed his heart completely, worked faith within Saul's heart, and caused Saul to repent.
Both salvation examples involved the working of God unto a person, but both needed God's involvement to perceive their need for Christ, to work faith within their heart to believe in Christ, to willingly come to repentance and call out to the Lord.

It took God to bring faith within your and mine heart. It took God to convince us of the truth and to repent. It took God to engage us and work over our heart like a farmer does his land, so the seed (Word) planted grows and yields the harvest the Farmer desires.

In the salvation of our soul, God is the beginning and end of all things needed and necessary. All the way from hearing someone preach the message, to our perceiving the truth of the Gospel, to our having faith, to our willing repentance, and to our calling out to Him.

God is 100% entirely involved with all aspects of man's salvation and all things needed and necessary for man to be saved. We are the ones being saved by the Savior; all the way from our dead to God state to our being made alive in Christ. We are His workmanship entirely.

Do you agree?
 
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Joe

Well-known member
It is contrary to the majority of the Bible to suggest that people have no ability to understand truth. have you ever read that there are people who make the decision not to come to the light, not because they are ignorant, but because they know they are sinners and they do not want their sin exposed. That is a clear picture of unregenerate people understanding truth a choosing a path contrary to it. John 3:20
Understanding and believing are two different things. Even Tom testified that he had head knowledge prior to faith, which is understanding the mechanics of the Gospel, but he had no faith to apply to that understanding. It takes God to work faith within a person's heart.
 

fltom

Well-known member
I agree

The bible depicts different people and God's involvement in bringing them to saving faith.
  • For the eunuch in Acts 8:26-39, the Spirit of the Lord directed Philip to go over the chariot that the eunuch was riding. Philip obeyed and then engaged with the eunuch who was already reading out of Isaiah. Philip preached to him the Gospel and the eunuch believed in Christ.
  • For Saul of Tarsus, he had heard the message many times over and completely was unbelieving, even to the point of murdering and persecuting believers. The involvement of God was to personally reveal Himself that changed his heart completely, worked faith within Saul's heart, and caused Saul to repent.
Both salvation examples involved the working of God unto a person, but both needed God's involvement to perceive their need for Christ, to work faith within their heart to believe in Christ, to willingly come to repentance and call out to the Lord.

It took God to bring faith within your and mine heart. It took God to convince us of the truth and to repent. It took God to engage us and work over our heart like a farmer does his land, so the seed (Word) planted grows and yields the harvest the Farmer desires.

In the salvation of our soul, God is the beginning and end of all things needed and necessary. All the way from hearing someone preach the message, to our perceiving the truth of the Gospel, to our having faith, to our willing repentance, and to our calling out to Him.

God is 100% entirely involved with all aspects of man's salvation and all things needed and necessary for man to be saved. We are the ones being saved by the Savior; all the way from our dead to God state to our being made alive in Christ. We are His workmanship entirely.

Do you agree?
Yes God was at work to bring faith to the Eunuch and Paul

The same was true with Cornelius

He did not irresistibly cause faith to arise

Saving faith is not a gift God irresistibly gives to some and with-holds from others

God took the initiative as he must

and man responded to God's initiative
 

Joe

Well-known member
He did not irresistibly cause faith to arise

Saving faith is not a gift God irresistibly gives to some and with-holds from others

I'm not sure what you are thinking when you say "irresistibly cause".

God took the initiative as he must

and man responded to God's initiative
That does not give God all the glory that is due. He not only took the initiative, but also supplied all things needed and necessary, including working within us while in a state of unbelief to bring about the desired result of His salvation of our soul. If God did not work within you, then you would still be the same ole unbelieving Tom. It is only because God did all things needed and necessary for you to have faith and apply it. God is the sole reason why anyone can be, and is saved...including the faith we have and the change of our heart to apply it.

Salvation is of the Lord, Faith is of the Lord. Repentance is of the Lord. Grace and mercy is of the Lord. Without any one of these, me and you would be lost in our sin. Agree?
 

fltom

Well-known member
I'm not sure what you are thinking when you say "irresistibly cause".


That does not give God all the glory that is due. He not only took the initiative, but also supplied all things needed and necessary, including working within us while in a state of unbelief to bring about the desired result of His salvation of our soul. If God did not work within you, then you would still be the same ole unbelieving Tom. It is only because God did all things needed and necessary for you to have faith and apply it. God is the sole reason why anyone can be, and is saved...including the faith we have and the change of our heart to apply it.

Salvation is of the Lord, Faith is of the Lord. Repentance is of the Lord. Grace and mercy is of the Lord. Without any one of these, me and you would be lost in our sin. Agree?
All that I have included in the initiative

The response is man's

The initiative does not guarantee the response
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
It is contrary to the majority of the Bible to suggest that people have no ability to understand truth.

If it is "contrary to the majority of the Bible", then it should be NO PROBLEM for you to quote 5-10 passages teaching this imaginary "truth".

You may begin...

have you ever read that there are people who make the decision not to come to the light, not because they are ignorant, but because they know they are sinners and they do not want their sin exposed.

Nope.
And we still haven't, since you haven't quoted any alleged verse that says that.

That is a clear picture of unregenerate people understanding truth a choosing a path contrary to it. John 3:20

Okay, seth...
I'll see your John 3:20, and I'll raise you Romans 2:15.
Now what?

Oops! ;)
 

fltom

Well-known member
If it is "contrary to the majority of the Bible", then it should be NO PROBLEM for you to quote 5-10 passages teaching this imaginary "truth".

You may begin...

Here

 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Understanding and believing are two different things. Even Tom testified that he had head knowledge prior to faith, which is understanding the mechanics of the Gospel, but he had no faith to apply to that understanding. It takes God to work faith within a person's heart.
yes understanding and believing are different. The type of belief I am talking about is a use of the Greek word that means to entrust yourself to. That cannot be given to you. By faith God can reveal Himself, but that does not save you until you commit to the truth by belief(entrusting yourself to it)
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
If it is "contrary to the majority of the Bible", then it should be NO PROBLEM for you to quote 5-10 passages teaching this imaginary "truth".

You may begin...



Nope.
And we still haven't, since you haven't quoted any alleged verse that says that.



Okay, seth...
I'll see your John 3:20, and I'll raise you Romans 2:15.
Now what?

Oops! ;)
Romans 2:15 is about the conscience, the facility we are born with thru which we perceive right and wrong and can sense God.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Romans 2:15 is about the conscience, the facility we are born with thru which we perceive right and wrong and can sense God.

So you are UNABLE to provide "Bible" which allegedly teaches that "people have the ability to understand truth".

Thank you for the admission, seth.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
It is contrary to the majority of the Bible to suggest that people have no ability to understand truth. have you ever read that there are people who make the decision not to come to the light, not because they are ignorant, but because they know they are sinners and they do not want their sin exposed. That is a clear picture of unregenerate people understanding truth a choosing a path contrary to it. John 3:20
Would you say that is an accurate description of yourself ?
 

Joe

Well-known member
The initiative does not guarantee the response
This leaves me curious of your thoughts concerning God. Do you think God cannot guarantee a response if He chose to do so all without coercion? I would say He guaranteed the response He wanted when He revealed Himself to Saul of Tarsus. Do you think God showed Saul more mercy and compassion than He has most others?

I agree it is man who responds, but it is by the mercy and compassion of God that any man responds in saving faith. Our response by faith is not of our own. It is a gift of God, wrought by the Gospel and His Spirit, according to His mercy and compassion.
 

fltom

Well-known member
This leaves me curious of your thoughts concerning God. Do you think God cannot guarantee a response if He chose to do so all without coercion? I would say He guaranteed the response He wanted when He revealed Himself to Saul of Tarsus. Do you think God showed Saul more mercy and compassion than He has most others?

I agree it is man who responds, but it is by the mercy and compassion of God that any man responds in saving faith. Our response by faith is not of our own. It is a gift of God, wrought by the Gospel and His Spirit, according to His mercy and compassion.
Yes it is by the mercy and compassion of God that any man responds in saving faith.

but the fact is some do refuse

and man's response is of course his response
 

Joe

Well-known member
Yes it is by the mercy and compassion of God that any man responds in saving faith.

but the fact is some do refuse

and man's response is of course his response

I agree with you.

Would you mind answering my two questions below? I'm curious of your thoughts.
Do you think God can guarantee a response if He chose to do so all without coercion?
I would say He guaranteed the response He wanted when He revealed Himself to Saul of Tarsus. Do you think God showed Saul more mercy and compassion than He has most others?
 

fltom

Well-known member
I agree with you.

Would you mind answering my two questions below? I'm curious of your thoughts.
Do you think God can guarantee a response if He chose to do so all without coercion?
I would say He guaranteed the response He wanted when He revealed Himself to Saul of Tarsus. Do you think God showed Saul more mercy and compassion than He has most others?
The fact is some men do refuse the gospel. Could he force belief on someone -of course he could but he chooses not to and as such some remain unconverted

I think God with his infinite knowledge knows what it would take to cause one to believe and as such he showed Paul extraordinary mercy.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I agree with you.

Would you mind answering my two questions below? I'm curious of your thoughts.
Do you think God can guarantee a response if He chose to do so all without coercion?
I would say He guaranteed the response He wanted when He revealed Himself to Saul of Tarsus. Do you think God showed Saul more mercy and compassion than He has most others?
All I can tell you Joe, is to pay attention to what he says over time. I defended him for years, and he made it sound good; but it finally comes out sooner or later...

You decide...
 
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